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Should I appeal my PIP MR or are they usually a waste of time?

KnobblyKneesKnobblyKnees Member Posts: 42 Courageous
Tbh I've had enough hassle re; the DWP lately but I'm pretty incensed to have been practically labelled a malingerer and I do need help with transport. There's no public transport here and it's getting too painful to drive a manual vehicle. I'm like under house arrest.

Has anyone appealed successfully?

If we're marked down because we can drive, they why are there so many disabled parking bays all over the place?

Is the SSC1 form the first step?

Thanks

Replies

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi,

    Its your decision whether you request the appeal or not and only you can decide that. Appearing in person will give you the best. Chance of a decision in your favour and without representation you have about 50% chance of success. With representation it rises to about 75%.

    As for driving going against people then yes it has been known but I drive and claim Enhanced mobility and it’s never gone against me.

    You need to concentrate on why you think you should have scored those points and not what the lies/contradictions that may have been told in the report.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • BenefitsTrainingCoBenefitsTrainingCo Member Posts: 2,692 Pioneering
    Hi there, I agree with Poppy. Concentrate on the points you should have scored in each activity, and say why (with examples if possible).

    I'd encourage you to appeal as a recent decision says the activity of planning & following a journey shouldn't just focus on driving. If you are only able to drive with pain, it's possible that your driving should be disregarded anyway, as pain which is interfering with your life probably means you are not able to do the activity 'reliably' - because you can only do it by causing pain.


    The decision says the law should look at the overall activity of planning and following a journey. Even if you could drive without pain, the drive can only ever be part of the journey -getting to and from the car is also to be taken into account. From what you're saying, the pain is such that it is stopping you from driving. The whole activity would need to be looked at though (and unfortunately the provision of public transport wouldn't be part of the test).

    Here's the decision in case it is helpful:

    https://www.gov.uk/administrative-appeals-tribunal-decisions/sb-v-secretary-of-state-for-work-and-pensions-pip-2019-ukut-274-aac

    Will
    The Benefits Training Co:
    Paul Bradley
    Michael Chambers
    Will Hadwen
    Sarah Hayle
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland
  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 126 Pioneering
    Tbh I've had enough hassle re; the DWP lately but I'm pretty incensed to have been practically labelled a malingerer and I do need help with transport. There's no public transport here and it's getting too painful to drive a manual vehicle. I'm like under house arrest.

    Has anyone appealed successfully?

    If we're marked down because we can drive, they why are there so many disabled parking bays all over the place?

    Is the SSC1 form the first step?

    Thanks
    I was marked down because I drive as well...seems we are a nice easy target these days..although mine was under moving around section...I’ve read of many others who have also fallen foul of this...makes a mockery of the Motibility scheme IMO but getting them to change their mind is proving neigh on impossible 
  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 126 Pioneering
    edited December 2019
    I can drive because it’s not weight bearing..whereas I can’t walk very far because of the horrific pain my osteoarthritis causes from my hips and back and also pain in one knee after a not so successful knee replacement..however and I quote “to get into and out of a car requires a certain level of dexterity” therefore you can walk further than 20m but less than 50m aided...

    sorry but that’s a load of tripe....however getting them to see that has been impossible, I only hope the appeal panel have a little more common sense 
  • KnobblyKneesKnobblyKnees Member Posts: 42 Courageous
    Thanks for all the advice and replies. The left knee is so painful it prevents me from driving and both knees buckle or lock when walking most of the time. When I have to go to the docs or physio I have to rest it for a few days until the pain eases. I'll give an appeal a go, they can only stop my ESA again I suppose. This is my reward for working flat out for over 20 years in the building trade and paying the elevated NI stamp eh? I know I've been offered knee replacements but there's no guarantee I'll be pain free and it sounds like it's a production line affair. Good luck with your appeal DuffersMum.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Being refused PIP has nothing to do with an ESA claim. Unfortunately working and paying your NI contributions won't help a PIP claim either because that's not what it's about.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 126 Pioneering
    I get where KnobblyKnees is coming from with his comment about working and paying into the system all your working life only for when you need some help they chuck it back in your face and say “tough” we say you can do this, that and the other, when they know nothing about you, ignore your medical records and what you tell them, and write whatever they feel like on the day...I feel exactly the same..I’m fact when I had to give up work due to my mobility problems the state informed me my husband would have to keep me after 6 months because that’s all the JCA I was entitled to...

    PIP is supposed to be about helping people with disabilities, however it now seems to be more to help people with mental health issues than those with mobility issues..

    Must remember when it’s time to reapply to not tell them I drive and see how I get on then eh?

    Good luck Knobbly Knees 😊
  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 126 Pioneering
    Oh I agree, no guarantee you will be pain free after knee replacement, I’m not, but trying to explain that to some thick nurse who knows sod all about arthritis is a waste of time, because she’s paid on how many people she gets through in a day so can’t get you out of there fast enough, just enough time to copy and paste a load of fabricated nonsense from another person’s report and on to the next one...how they sleep at night I’ve no idea
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger

    PIP is supposed to be about helping people with disabilities, however it now seems to be more to help people with mental health issues than those with mobility issues..

    Must remember when it’s time to reapply to not tell them I drive and see how I get on then eh?

    Good luck Knobbly Knees 😊

    Sorry but i completely disagree with that. I claim standard daily living and Enhanced mobility PIP, i claim for physical disabilities only and yes i drive an automatic car.

    I also know of a lot of people that claim PIP for physical disabilities.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 126 Pioneering
    Automatic car...there’s the difference....mine is manual so I can obviously run up and down stairs and probably a marathon or two according to the useless thing that did my assessment....

    ive learnt from the experience though and will be far better prepared next time....they won’t be catching me out with trick questions again 
  • CressidaCressida Member Posts: 839 Pioneering
    @DuffersMum just to give a little balance I suffer from rheumatoid and osteoarthritis and received a fair award on my first attempt. My HCP was a nurse. 
  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 126 Pioneering
    Cressida said:
    @DuffersMum just to give a little balance I suffer from rheumatoid and osteoarthritis and received a fair award on my first attempt. My HCP was a nurse. 
    I’m very pleased it was ok for you...The one I had was useless and I have put in an official complaint to ATOS, who aren’t called ATOS anymore but are actually still ATOS with the same underhand tactics they’ve always used. She was truly horrible, looking down her stuck up little nose at me like I was something on the bottom of her shoe....karma will catch up with her eventually...
  • Puddington_PieePuddington_Piee Member Posts: 1 Listener
    If it was me, I'd definitely appeal. The amount of people being turned down when they should really be getting PIP is appalling, an  over half of the people turned down for it end up winning their appeal's. So id say go for it if you have a good case.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,623 Disability Gamechanger
    The current success rate for PIP appeals us 76%. A few comments on here are worthy of clarification.

    1 - Nobody pays into any system to get disability benefits. Whilst paying NI helps you qualify for contributory benefits it does not guarantee entitlement and that is not what NI has been about for many years. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Insurance_Fund. No matter how much NI you paid it would never entitle you to a disability benefit and disability benefits are not a right in the way means-tested benefits are. 

    2 - PIP do not ignore medical records. They cannot legally ignore any evidence put in front of them. Medical records are largely not relevant in most cases though. If you’re the claimant then legally the onus is on you to prove entitlement and not on DWP to contact people and gather your evidence for you. 

    3 - asserting that PIP appears to be mostly aimed at people with mental ill health rather than mobility issues is an assertion wholly unsupported by the facts and official statistics and possibly offensive to anyone with mental ill health who has attempted to claim PIP. 

    4 - it’s simply not possible to copy and paste from another persons report as a HCP can only have one case open at a time.

    5 - current case law on driving and PIP nicely summarised at https://www.gov.uk/administrative-appeals-tribunal-decisions/jc-v-secretary-of-state-for-work-and-pensions-pip-2019-ukut-181-aac

    6 - there are no “trick” questions. Both HCPs and tribunals have limited time in which to get accurate information so inevitably they ask questions which cut across several different aspects of functionality. 
  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 126 Pioneering
    2. My HCP chucked my medical records back across the table at me when I handed them to her “I don’t want or need those” so she definitely ignored medical evidence and had she looked at them she might not have made so many glaring errors about which of my joints are affected.

    3.  What I was trying to say, obviously badly, was that I am sure Moving Around used to be a section just on its own but they have now thrown in the managing and planning journeys which are more aimed at mental health problems rather than mobility...did this happen at the same time as they changed the distance from 50m to 20m? (Sure it was but not 100% certain) it was then that it became much harder to gain Enhanced Mobility on just the Moving Around descriptor alone, IMO penalising those with mobility problems alone, whereas somebody with mental health problems can gain extra points in the planning and managing journeys descriptor which makes getting enhanced mobility easier..hope that now makes sense 

    5.  That was not for moving around descriptor though but for the planning and managing journeys.  I can plan and follow journeys with no problem as I am not affected by any mental health issues.  I can’t walk anywhere without being in pain but can drive without the same level of pain because driving is not weight bearing, however they seem to choose to ignore this fact and it’s extremely frustrating

    6.  They do have allotted times, I agree, it’s just a shame some HCP are more interested in shoving you out the door before you can clearly explain yourself...I was in and out in less than 30 minutes, I was advised my assessment would be at least an hour 🤷🏻‍♀️


  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    There's 2 parts to mobility... following and planning a journey and moving around. They are completely different activities and have always been that way since PIP was introduced in April 2013.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 126 Pioneering
    There's 2 parts to mobility... following and planning a journey and moving around. They are completely different activities and have always been that way since PIP was introduced in April 2013.
    But they have changed the distance haven’t they? Sure it was 50m before and now it’s 20m? Sure it will only be a matter of time before that up to 20m is downgraded to 10 points and you’ll only get 12 points if you can’t walk at all....

    roll on being 65 (or is it 66 now the retirement age has changed) when one can claim attendance allowance instead of being put through the humiliation of a PIP assessment...
  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 126 Pioneering
    ilovecats said:
    It’s actually a lot harder to obtain points for Activity 11 than it is 12
    But gaining any points for 11 makes it more likely to be able to get to the necessary 12 points when added to the points in 12..very difficult getting 12 points in section 12 alone, or it seems that way from posts I have read on various forums.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    There's 2 parts to mobility... following and planning a journey and moving around. They are completely different activities and have always been that way since PIP was introduced in April 2013.
    But they have changed the distance haven’t they? Sure it was 50m before and now it’s 20m? Sure it will only be a matter of time before that up to 20m is downgraded to 10 points and you’ll only get 12 points if you can’t walk at all....


    The distance changed just after PIP was first introduced, which was almost 7 years ago. I also disagree that it's difficult to score 12 points in the moving around part, lots of people successfully claim Enhanced mobility that scored points in just the moving around part and i know of quite a few people that have, including myself. I didn't score any points in following and planning a journey, as i previously mentioned.

    I've said this many many times but i'll say it again, having some understanding of the PIP descriptors and what they mean will always help.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • androgynousandrogynous Member Posts: 46 Courageous
    edited December 2019
    DuffersMum said:

    roll on being 65 (or is it 66 now the retirement age has changed) when one can claim attendance allowance instead of being put through the humiliation of a PIP assessment...


    On the down side, there's no mobility component of attendance allowance.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • KnobblyKneesKnobblyKnees Member Posts: 42 Courageous
    edited December 2019
    Seems things are getting a bit heated. Okay so my NI doesn't make any difference to PIP, it just gets me that I lived on a road where two blokes who had never done a stroke of ( official ) work in their lives because of a 'bad backs' yet still managed to father 9 kids between them and lay York stone driveways, fit a new engine in a car, work on the side as painters and decorators, shimmy up and down ladders and 'go t' club' every night for a skinful. Because of professional claimants like them we're all tarred with the same brush. If I'd followed their example I would still have my health, there's no justice.

    And there is a definite connection between my PIP assessment and the DWP stopping my ESA. I filled in the EAS form in March and they stopped my payments on the same day the PIP sent the refusal in November. 8 months to decide I was a malingerer, I think not! The PIP assessor pounced on the fact when I blabbed I was on ESA, my housemate was female and even after I showed her evidence of the state of my knees and neck stated I didn't appear to be suffering from any pain and had 'normal movement'. Don't get me started on those ATOS ( Health Assessment Advisory Service ) [Removed by moderator]. On the asthma test he blatantly moved the marker and recorded a higher response and was so dishonest he claimed I did not have Baker's cysts behind the knees etc; etc; It's difficult to censor my language on this matter so I'd better leave it at that but you get the gist.

    One thing I've noticed on the DWP reports is they make a big thing about me making eye contact. It was drilled into me as a kid to always make eye contact when I'm telling the truth. I suppose if I didn't look at them they'd say I was being evasive and shifty. You can't win. They also stated I didn't turn up wearing pyjamas, dressing gown and slippers haha. What the hell? Am I supposed to?

    Thanks Duffer's Mum, and everyone else. How is Duffer by the way? And the best of British luck to you too. We'll need it! I'm fully expecting the ATOS assessor to state I cartwheeled into the room and tripped a light fandango while wearing tap shoes and carrying a 50 kg sack of coal.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,623 Disability Gamechanger
    Seems things are getting a bit heated. Okay so my NI doesn't make any difference to PIP, it just gets me that I lived on a road where two blokes who had never done a stroke of ( official ) work in their lives because of a 'bad backs' yet still managed to father 9 kids between them and lay York stone driveways, fit a new engine in a car, work on the side as painters and decorators, shimmy up and down ladders and 'go t' club' every night for a skinful. Because of professional claimants like them we're all tarred with the same brush. If I'd followed their example I would still have my health, there's no justice.

    And there is a definite connection between my PIP assessment and the DWP stopping my ESA. I filled in the EAS form in March and they stopped my payments on the same day the PIP sent the refusal in November. 8 months to decide I was a malingerer, I think not! The PIP assessor pounced on the fact when I blabbed I was on ESA, my housemate was female and even after I showed her evidence of the state of my knees and neck stated I didn't appear to be suffering from any pain and had 'normal movement'. Don't get me started on those ATOS ( Health Assessment Advisory Service ) [Removed by moderator]. On the asthma test he blatantly moved the marker and recorded a higher response and was so dishonest he claimed I did not have Baker's cysts behind the knees etc; etc; It's difficult to censor my language on this matter so I'd better leave it at that but you get the gist.

    One thing I've noticed on the DWP reports is they make a big thing about me making eye contact. It was drilled into me as a kid to always make eye contact when I'm telling the truth. I suppose if I didn't look at them they'd say I was being evasive and shifty. You can't win. They also stated I didn't turn up wearing pyjamas, dressing gown and slippers haha. What the hell? Am I supposed to?

    Thanks Duffer's Mum, and everyone else. How is Duffer by the way? And the best of British luck to you too. We'll need it! I'm fully expecting the ATOS assessor to state I cartwheeled into the room and tripped a light fandango while wearing tap shoes and carrying a 50 kg sack of coal.
    Generally speaking there’s nothing to be gained from comparing yourself to others. You no more know the ins and outs of their health than they do yours. They presumably fathered children some years ago so that wouldn’t be relevant to their health more recently. There have been many investigations into the much propagated press myth of the lifelong workless household and eventually it triggered academic research which showed definitively that, despite assertions from the media and ministers, it has simply never existed. Respectfully therefore I’d suggest your assertion as to what work they have done would make them unique in the history of social security. I’m also not sure how you’d assess how much they drink or how having a social life is prohibited under social security legislation. You may also want to familiarise yourself with the many social security benefits which can be legitimately paid to people in work especially since in work poverty is now greater than out of work poverty for the 1st time in recorded history. 

    To address your other points, there was indeed a connection between ESA and PIP but that was severed some time ago and I’m afraid anything which happens nowadays on that front is largely unfortunate coincidence. 

    Wholly agree with you re: eye contact. It’s an immensely stupid measure of nothing in particular. 
  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 126 Pioneering
    Seems things are getting a bit heated. Okay so my NI doesn't make any difference to PIP, it just gets me that I lived on a road where two blokes who had never done a stroke of ( official ) work in their lives because of a 'bad backs' yet still managed to father 9 kids between them and lay York stone driveways, fit a new engine in a car, work on the side as painters and decorators, shimmy up and down ladders and 'go t' club' every night for a skinful. Because of professional claimants like them we're all tarred with the same brush. If I'd followed their example I would still have my health, there's no justice.

    And there is a definite connection between my PIP assessment and the DWP stopping my ESA. I filled in the EAS form in March and they stopped my payments on the same day the PIP sent the refusal in November. 8 months to decide I was a malingerer, I think not! The PIP assessor pounced on the fact when I blabbed I was on ESA, my housemate was female and even after I showed her evidence of the state of my knees and neck stated I didn't appear to be suffering from any pain and had 'normal movement'. Don't get me started on those ATOS ( Health Assessment Advisory Service ) [Removed by moderator]. On the asthma test he blatantly moved the marker and recorded a higher response and was so dishonest he claimed I did not have Baker's cysts behind the knees etc; etc; It's difficult to censor my language on this matter so I'd better leave it at that but you get the gist.

    One thing I've noticed on the DWP reports is they make a big thing about me making eye contact. It was drilled into me as a kid to always make eye contact when I'm telling the truth. I suppose if I didn't look at them they'd say I was being evasive and shifty. You can't win. They also stated I didn't turn up wearing pyjamas, dressing gown and slippers haha. What the hell? Am I supposed to?

    Thanks Duffer's Mum, and everyone else. How is Duffer by the way? And the best of British luck to you too. We'll need it! I'm fully expecting the ATOS assessor to state I cartwheeled into the room and tripped a light fandango while wearing tap shoes and carrying a 50 kg sack of coal.
    I only popped back to say good luck to you, I won’t be posting anymore on here. Duffer is sadly no longer with us, he was my dog 😢 Hope you get the award you obviously deserve and need, despite the best efforts of DWP and ATOS x
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Scope Posts: 10,653 Disability Gamechanger
    Really sorry to hear this @DuffersMum! If there is anything we can do to help then please do let us know.
    Scope

  • KnobblyKneesKnobblyKnees Member Posts: 42 Courageous
    Seems things are getting a bit heated. Okay so my NI doesn't make any difference to PIP, it just gets me that I lived on a road where two blokes who had never done a stroke of ( official ) work in their lives because of a 'bad backs' yet still managed to father 9 kids between them and lay York stone driveways, fit a new engine in a car, work on the side as painters and decorators, shimmy up and down ladders and 'go t' club' every night for a skinful. Because of professional claimants like them we're all tarred with the same brush. If I'd followed their example I would still have my health, there's no justice.

    And there is a definite connection between my PIP assessment and the DWP stopping my ESA. I filled in the EAS form in March and they stopped my payments on the same day the PIP sent the refusal in November. 8 months to decide I was a malingerer, I think not! The PIP assessor pounced on the fact when I blabbed I was on ESA, my housemate was female and even after I showed her evidence of the state of my knees and neck stated I didn't appear to be suffering from any pain and had 'normal movement'. Don't get me started on those ATOS ( Health Assessment Advisory Service ) [Removed by moderator]. On the asthma test he blatantly moved the marker and recorded a higher response and was so dishonest he claimed I did not have Baker's cysts behind the knees etc; etc; It's difficult to censor my language on this matter so I'd better leave it at that but you get the gist.

    One thing I've noticed on the DWP reports is they make a big thing about me making eye contact. It was drilled into me as a kid to always make eye contact when I'm telling the truth. I suppose if I didn't look at them they'd say I was being evasive and shifty. You can't win. They also stated I didn't turn up wearing pyjamas, dressing gown and slippers haha. What the hell? Am I supposed to?

    Thanks Duffer's Mum, and everyone else. How is Duffer by the way? And the best of British luck to you too. We'll need it! I'm fully expecting the ATOS assessor to state I cartwheeled into the room and tripped a light fandango while wearing tap shoes and carrying a 50 kg sack of coal.
    Generally speaking there’s nothing to be gained from comparing yourself to others. You no more know the ins and outs of their health than they do yours. They presumably fathered children some years ago so that wouldn’t be relevant to their health more recently. There have been many investigations into the much propagated press myth of the lifelong workless household and eventually it triggered academic research which showed definitively that, despite assertions from the media and ministers, it has simply never existed. Respectfully therefore I’d suggest your assertion as to what work they have done would make them unique in the history of social security. I’m also not sure how you’d assess how much they drink or how having a social life is prohibited under social security legislation. You may also want to familiarise yourself with the many social security benefits which can be legitimately paid to people in work especially since in work poverty is now greater than out of work poverty for the 1st time in recorded history. 

    To address your other points, there was indeed a connection between ESA and PIP but that was severed some time ago and I’m afraid anything which happens nowadays on that front is largely unfortunate coincidence. 

    Wholly agree with you re: eye contact. It’s an immensely stupid measure of nothing in particular. 


    Thanks for your thoughts but I'll have to disagree with you there. I lived on a 'Shameless' ( minus the drugs ) type estate for 20 years and I knew these blokes very well and they'd boast of how they got jobs at the pit just to get an NCB house then 'unfortunately' developed such chronic back pain they never worked again ( officially ) for over 20 years. One fathered six kids for the benefits despite his disability and chronic back pain and the oldest children were already following dad's example. Middle class academics are not very streetwise, I have lived among the workless and working class most of my life and I am working class but unable to any longer. Professional claimants do exist and this is how the DWP view all of us.

    It's true, only fools and horses work.

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Personally, i think it's wrong to judge other people. Regardless of how well a person claims they know someone, no one will ever know their exact circumstances. I would never judge anyone and i wouldn't want anyone to judge me either. Very few people claim benefits fraudulently. Invisible conditions do exist and a lot of people put a smile on their face when they go out through their door but when they return life returns to normal... i've been there, done that and wore the t-shirt.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,623 Disability Gamechanger
    Thanks for your thoughts but I'll have to disagree with you there. I lived on a 'Shameless' ( minus the drugs ) type estate for 20 years and I knew these blokes very well and they'd boast of how they got jobs at the pit just to get an NCB house then 'unfortunately' developed such chronic back pain they never worked again ( officially ) for over 20 years. One fathered six kids for the benefits despite his disability and chronic back pain and the oldest children were already following dad's example. Middle class academics are not very streetwise, I have lived among the workless and working class most of my life and I am working class but unable to any longer. Professional claimants do exist and this is how the DWP view all of us.

    It's true, only fools and horses work.
    Personally, i think it's wrong to judge other people. Regardless of how well a person claims they know someone, no one will ever know their exact circumstances. I would never judge anyone and i wouldn't want anyone to judge me either. Very few people claim benefits fraudulently. Invisible conditions do exist and a lot of people put a smile on their face when they go out through their door but when they return life returns to normal... i've been there, done that and wore the t-shirt.
    My experience of claimants has very much been that the most boastful about swindling “the system” or whatever you wish to call it almost never had any substance to their boastfulness and it largely hid huge anxieties and a desperate loneliness and/or need to belong. Having worked in several mining areas I can say that getting a pit job was not the easy route to a so called NCB house and the jobs which secured that were amongst that were the toughest and came with a near guarantee of long term ill health. Men who suffered that ill health tended to feel impotent failures if they lost their employment and felt that they would lose face if they were seen to have failed in a very macho and patriarchal culture. Thus they developed a culture of macho bravado involving exactly what you describe. 

    Benefit fraud is mostly systemic and criminal gangs rather than individuals. This is borne out beautifully by the recent and ongoing scandal about UC advance payments. Benefit fraud by individuals is rare and even rarer is it prosecuted. Most of those prosecutions succeed because legal representation often comes with little basic welfare rights knowledge. Furthermore, DWP fraud figures are overstated and this is evidenced by the fact they’re accounts have been qualified as unreliable for more than two decades now. Everybody knows a fraudster. Everybody especially wants to tell the world about that when their benefits have been stopped and yet hardly anyone reports fraud and the evidence points totally, and this is especially true of PIP, to it being negligible.

    To take your other points one at a time I think it would be helpful to clarify the story. 

    Originally you said they had never worked at all. Now you say they did! We’re going off topic here but I’m sure that if you knew these people well you’ll be able to clarify which it is. 

    I’m also at a slight loss to understand how chronic back pain prevents conceiving a child. That’s news to me and I would imagine many others on this forum. I suffered a serious football injury 22 years ago and have lived with that pain at various levels ever since. My child is now a teenager. I can’t be alone in managing that feat.

    I, and I would imagine a number of other people on here, take considerable offence at the idea (largely propagated by the right wing media and Tory ministers) that people conceive children “for the benefits”. I’ve been active in welfare rights for 34 years across multiple regions and I’ve never met that person yet. Not have I had a conversation with a colleague who has. As anyone with children can confirm, having children doesn’t make anyone better off as the cost is hugely offset. Again,the evidence is well researched and overwhelming. If having children does anything then it either creates or exacerbates debt. I’ve yet to meet anyone with children who’s running at a profit let alone when they’re on benefits.

    If you read my earlier post I referred to their having been multiple studies into the myth of the lifelong workless household which triggered academic research. I don’t know where you have the idea that academics are middle class from or that they would need to be streetwise so allow me to clarify. Initially politicians made these ludicrous claims because they were “the word on the street”. Everybody apparently knew somebody and  weirdly they always wanted to make that point just after their benefits had been stopped. Politicians and the media lapped it up but when other media, especially TV,  looked into it they couldn’t find them and kicked up a legitimate fuss. DWP were forced into looking into their own stats and eventually commissioning their own research. It found that the workless household simply didn’t exist and an embarrassing climb down had to be made in public. 

    As often happens with these things, discovering the truth doesn’t stop people repeating lies. The DNS website and DPAC have been very good for example about challenging lies around PIP; forcing apologies in some instances and then highlighting when, come an election or parliamentary debate, those same lies suddenly appear all over again. 

    The energies of people who constantly focus on others would be so much better employed trying to assess the merits of their own case and ensuring it’s presented in the most focused way so as to give it the best chance of success. 
  • KnobblyKneesKnobblyKnees Member Posts: 42 Courageous
    My, my someone's got a lot of time on their hands. I said they told me they got jobs to get their houses not that they did any official work. Their 'bad backs' were a running joke on the street and they reveled in their infamy it was a badge of honour for them that they were clever enough to exploit the system to it's fullest.  As for feeling impotent it didn't stop them having 9 kids between them for the perks or sending them up to my house when the little angels were big enough to shout abuse and throw stones and smash my windows because they found out I was 'different', ran a successful business and owned my own house. I can't be bothered to read all your tome but it's not being judgemental to observe you are extremely naive. My 'judgements' were based on their own testimony not anecdotal gossip.

    I'm with Duffer's Mum on this, I'm not posting on here anymore, you can fester in your own juices mate.

    Have a nice day :)
  • Adrian_ScopeAdrian_Scope Testing team Posts: 8,001

    Scope community team

    Hi @KnobblyKnees, @mikehughescq has taken the time to address your post politely, with facts and his own experience. Please be mindful of the tone of your posts and be sure to keep our community guidelines in mind.

    Particularly: 

    Keep it friendly

    We want the community to be a safe and supportive place. Please make sure your messages respect other users’ views and suggestions, even if you do not agree with them.

    Take care to present your views tactfully and remember that humour may be misinterpreted.

    Community Manager
    Scope
  • KnobblyKneesKnobblyKnees Member Posts: 42 Courageous
    No I disagree Adrian_Scope he's taken an awful lot of time to voice his own skewed opinion without knowing any of the actual facts. As for not comparing ourselves with others, we wouldn't have equality laws if we didn't compare ourselves with others now would we?

    If your advisers honestly believe that 8 months after filling my ESA50 the DWP suddenly decided after my PIP assessment to stop my ESA benefits was a coincidence ( the letter actually arrived in the same post as the PIP refusal ), then I am flabbergasted. This site is not for the likes of me I'm afraid.

    Thanks for the odd bit of useful advice though.

    I feel the best thing to do then is blacklist me and close my account please.

    Roger and out COYS!
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 968 Disability Gamechanger
    @KnobblyKnees - sorry to hear that you're going; good luck with your claim.

    If I might just offer one final piece of advice (as you head for the door!) it's really important to remember that PIP is about how your condition affects you.

    It's individual to you and not anyone else...
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    @KnobblyKnees if you want to request for your account to be deleted then please email the scope team  at [email protected] and they will be to do this for you.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
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