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I am sure I am far from alone but..

soconfusedsoconfused Member Posts: 101 Courageous
edited January 2020 in PIP, DLA and AA
Has anyone else had a brick wall moment with the DWP? 

Mine is very specific. I was not awarded Enhanced rate of Mobility because It was "assessed" (very loosely used there) that I didn't qualify for it. I am at the tribunal waiting stage and before Xmas the DWP sent me their response and it just got to the Tribunal people today.

Total expected the request to dismiss me, that is normal I know that. But what I find staggering is this.

In my DA assessment It was written that because I had previously driven for work (the way that was done was totally ignored) and held a driving licence meant that I was not assessed to have any Mental Health Issues. The whole conversation we had on this matter and how my Anxiety freaks me out in public was ignored. I must admit I admire her fickleness - as if holding a driving licence once test passed is hard. 

The DWP have written to the Tribunal people stating that, and I quote 

"The Ability of driving a car is in itself a multi-tasking activity requiring significant physical function in terms of grip, power and upper and lower joint movements in conjunction with substantial cognitive powers of thought, perception, memory, ,reasoning, concentration, judgement and co-ordination entirely consistent with the decision makers decision"

And as we all know - DA assessors have a good track record of including EVERYTHING discussed with 100% accuracy and they never leave stuff out.. (when you have finished laughing too read on please) 

Mine was a ex Physio now turned Nurse " Qualified" is the term the DWP used - if only she knew a flying fig about Mental Health! 

I also believe I am affected by the 2018 high court ruling as reported here as my condition was totally missed or ignored https://www.mentalhealthandmoneyadvice.org/wal/top-tips/what-the-2018-pip-ruling-means-for-those-living-with-mental-health-issues/ Luckily the tribunal will already consider this but I have added it as a reminder just in case. 

According to this page.. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/people-with-hidden-disabilities-to-benefit-from-blue-badges singe August 2019 people have been able to get a blue badge with the 2 main non physical eligibility criteria markers being. 

1. cannot undertake a journey without there being a risk of serious harm to their health or safety or that of any other person (such as young children with autism)

2. cannot undertake a journey without it causing them very considerable psychological distress

It is only right at this point to state I do have a blue badge based on the 10 points I got for Mobility. I am fighting this because If awarded I would be able to fund several other ways to get around, it's not just about getting a car for me. 

So how can they tell me that I can not have a MH condition and therefore can drive - and yet they give people with MH problems (a lot of them I can only assume drive themselves about ) Blue badges! 

They have also included the call logs of when I called to tell them I could no longer drive the car I have because I don't have the strength in my left arm and hand to pull the handbrake up - and that electronic assistance would benefit me. Not sure if that will help but it's in there.

I admit this is DWP England, who like to pull this " you live on the wrong side of the border" crap when it suits them - but I ask because although I am currently living in Wales, Unless the tribunal happens in the next 3 months It will be transferred to England anyway

So, yes of course I am going to fight till the end - but can anyone agree this is madness? I've been told my hearing will be at a location out of the city in order to facilitate my anxiety as well as to help the person who is taking me.

Does it seem bizarre and a little bit cheeky that the woman who is taking me has no legs, 1 arm and has bi polar? and we will rock up in her mobility car - just to prove a point? 

Because that's what is going to happen! 


Replies

  • wilkowilko Member Posts: 2,194 Disability Gamechanger
    @ soconfused, Hello and welcome, the DWP are right when they state a person’s abilities to drive are listed correctly as those of us who still drive with a disability know only to well. As for being awarded a blue badge , being able to drive is not a requirement and never has been as far as I know. Reading many posts it looks like that the DWP are tightening up the criteria for awarding high rate, enhanced mobility awards and claimants who have this awards now have to fight and fully justified their entitlement by requesting an MR then on to tribunal.
  • soconfusedsoconfused Member Posts: 101 Courageous
    edited January 2020
    Thanks for the reply. Will let you know how it goes even if it's a year down the line! The high court ruling I added possibly after you read my post might help no idea 
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Scope Posts: 10,662 Disability Gamechanger
    Thank you for sharing this with us @soconfused, please do let us know how you get on!
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  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 119 Pioneering
    I was also turned down for enhanced mobility because I drive...it seems to be very common now
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    I was also turned down for enhanced mobility because I drive...it seems to be very common now

    Not at all.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • soconfusedsoconfused Member Posts: 101 Courageous
    It does - but they are saying I don't qualify because driving means I have no chance of MH issues - this is what I am challenging. I'd be happy with help for a scooter the second one scooter I have is dying. But they think it's JUST about getting a car! 
  • androgynousandrogynous Member Posts: 46 Courageous
    edited January 2020
    @DuffersMum and @soconfused

    Same here. Despite being awarded EHM and EHC for my first claim for PIP, I was re assessed 2 and a half years later and went from 14 points for Mobility to 10 points and 13 points for Care to 10 points. I went to tribunal and partially lost, that is, I still came away with my 10 points for Mobility but was awarded my 13 points for care, again.

    Ridiculous reasons from the judge. I could drive a car, (so i can't have one?) It's only for people who are working, it's not for people to get to Hospital and health appointments, was another. They totally disregarded the effects on my mental health. The judge told me to buy a car with what i got from returning my Motability car. I got £250 for handing it back, (in immaculate condition). I now know why they were in such a rush to get it back. The amount changed to £600 a couple of months later.

    I've now been housebound for the best part of a year. I did lose my 'Personal Independence'. Subsequently a health assessor told me if you can get out of bed you're not going to get Enhanced Mobility, now.

    I do believe there are so many people being awarded 10 points for Mobility now, it's more than a coincidence? I have no faith in the tribunal system, either.

    Frustratingly, the 10 points gives you automatic entitlement to a Blue Badge but what good is a Blue Badge if you've lost your mobility? 

    It's not only the loss of a mobility car, I'm denied access to any form of mobility, a car, an electric wheelchair or a mobility scooter. I asked my OT for a wheelchair and they said i wouldn't be able to propel it myself, ditto the nurse who carried out my healthcare assessment. I found myself without wheels of any sort and no one could understand why i was denied enhanced mobility.

    I won my care back and was given a 10 year award, (so people do get them before retirement age). 

    I'm now between a rock and a hard place because my needs had got worse by the time i went to tribunal. I have to decide whether to go for a supersession whilst i still can, or just accept the lesser award i got. My needs aren't going to improve. In the meantime i'm having a break from the stress of it all because i'm tired of going for health assessments every year. 

    soconfused, I wish you luck at your tribunal. I hope it goes better than mine did. Be sure you are very well prepared. I don't feel i was well enough represented, but it's too late now. I feel worse knowing i honestly was given the appropriate award when i went onto PIP, and it feels worse when you lose that award, especially when you become housebound as a result.

    Maybe alot depends on who you get for your health assessment and who you get sitting on your tribunal. I couldn't even hear what the panel were saying, they were sat so far away. It was my first tribunal and it was incredibly stressful. I don't think there is a high success rate pre tribunal, I'm of the opion claimants either aren't aware of various processes and if they are, they decline to subject themselves to what can be, a highly stressful process.

    I've lost count of the brickwalls i've encountered courtesy of the DWP.

    A member of DWP staff said to me recently, we are all regarded as benefit cheats. 

    I'm still going to be encountering brick walls whilst the DWP is my life. What chance do you stand?
  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 119 Pioneering
    @androgynous I agree re the it depends on the assessor you get..mine was not particularly friendly and looked like she was chewing a wasp for the whole 25 minutes I was in there and her report was basically a load of lies....my husband had a home assessment the other week and the assessor was really nice, he has now received a copy of his report and it is almost word for word what he said, his assessment lasted an hour and if they go by her report he should get enhanced care (from standard) and enhanced mobility (already has this) we have very similar mobility problems due to osteoarthritis, I said I drove a couple of times a week and got standard mobility, he said he hasn’t driven for 2 years, the last time being when I had my second knee replacement in 2018, and looks like he will keep his enhanced...I’m appealing but only as a paper based appeal as I just can’t be coping with having to go before more people and get accused of lying..I’m not expecting to win though.
  • androgynousandrogynous Member Posts: 46 Courageous
    edited January 2020
    @DuffersMum

    Good luck DuffersMum. I had a paper based appeal initially as it was going to have such an effect on me losing my 'independence' as i had to give my car back and then i had a cancellation for the actual tribunal. Everyone said i would win my tribunal but i never take these things for granted. Just as well?

    I think it also depends on the region you live. I live in an area which has a notoriously low award rate for disability benefits, one of the lowest in the country, so much so, there have been meetings between various factions to find out why this is. Financial incentive comes to mind?

    No consolation to me, though.


  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Tribunal success rates. Paper based 5-8%
    Appearing in person with representation about 75%
    without representation about 50%. 


    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • soconfusedsoconfused Member Posts: 101 Courageous
    Okay so is this a Citizens Advice thing for representation? Or solicitor? 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    No need for a solicitor for representation. Welfare rights or a law centre are both good places to start. Look here to see what's local to you. https://advicelocal.uk/

    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • thespicemanthespiceman Member Posts: 6,408 Disability Gamechanger
    Hello @soconfused   Pleased to meet you.

    I am one of the team of Community Champions.

    We guide, advise and help, support members.

    Please can you read this carefully, this is a lot of information and advice.

    A lot of it is useful and informative.

    With any assessments, tribunals or anything to with DWP you should always ask for any support or guidance to help you.

    I would consider the following mental health charities to use.

    https://www.richmondfellowship.org.uk.

    https://www.mind.org.uk.

    https://www.rethink.org.

    All mental health charities offer the following services.

    Floating support, help, advise guidance, information with your issues.

    Health, welfare looking at benefits, filling in forms, attending anything related.

    Speak for you at assessments. Sometimes might contact DWP on your behalf to see anything they can do further to help you.

    Intervention, anything else they can help with.

    Might put in a report about you in any form.

    One final one I used to drive never went to assessments in my car.

    Did the following used friends to drive me or ask support workers to take me.

    Wil have to pay support workers petrol costs and any car parking fees.

    I do understand would get asked about me driving why I have I come with support.

    Please if I can one other relevant point lost my car a long time ago do I care been and gone so what not bothered.

    The most important thing in my opinion is to be positive, focus on the that the positives. Have confidence.

    Be open, honesty keep the answers precise, simple.

    Been doing this a long time, rehearse if you wish to say and think your answers.

    I have had negatives sometimes may I add bad ones but focus on the good ones, learn from them.

    Use taxis use the standard rate PIP and that is my expenses.

    Life has to go on, use on line shopping so do not go out everything delivered.

    Besides the costs of a taxi against the costs of petrol, parking, stress, strain.

    Of driving not wanted spent more time sweating, getting emotional .

    In traffic, panics, all the time the meds I am anxiety over them driving.

    Spend a fortune in fuel now probably saved a fortune per month.

    Only need a taxi if and when need to go out.

    Taxis are the answer for me, also one other they can park outside places where you will need a blue badge so why need one of those.

    Banks, Post Offices, last week Curry's all difficult places to park in my areas.

    Another this taxi firm text in booking no need to ring, will text you back confirm everything.

    Please can I add if you need anything else have any questions please ask.

    Happy to be supportive.

    Please take care.

    @thespiceman



     
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  • soconfusedsoconfused Member Posts: 101 Courageous
    Thank you both. I will read again later and digest it properly. 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,369 Disability Gamechanger
    The phrase in your appeal papers is simply a template phrase. It has long been discredited by case law. Take a look at Rightsnet. 
  • DuffersMumDuffersMum Member Posts: 119 Pioneering
    The phrase in your appeal papers is simply a template phrase. It has long been discredited by case law. Take a look at Rightsnet. 
    It that the bit about driving?
  • soconfusedsoconfused Member Posts: 101 Courageous
    edited January 2020
    Thanks for the info all and sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I have been sent paperwork today which tells me I have 2 (yes 2) Tribunals within 14 days of each other in Feb - so I am kind of trying my best to prepare!

    First is WCA - Second is the PIP one - both in the same place - is it likely to be the same people too? I've sent all my evidence and my Doctor's letter saying basically what a fruitcake I can be when I get thrown into social situations - so I basically don't go out unless it's the only option ,and then I take my Rep with me (as they live with me) and if I need to go shopping, due to having cracking Insomnia we will go to Tesco at 3am so as to avoid as many people as possible. which sadly is very true!

    How much and what do I have to fear with this rapid Tribunal situation?

    If I was successful fo the PIP it wouldn't necessarily be for me to drive anyway it would be for my rep - or if they end up getting their own car a scooter or whatever else is available to help would be the option. I get so tired so quickly walking around - and more often than not the scooters at the shops have been left unplugged so are flat - leaving me to sit on a bench and wait for her to return.:( 

    Thanks 
  • skullcapskullcap Member - under moderation Posts: 182 Courageous
    "The Ability of driving a car is in itself a multi-tasking activity requiring significant physical function in terms of grip, power and upper and lower joint movements in conjunction with substantial cognitive powers of thought, perception, memory, ,reasoning, concentration, judgement and co-ordination entirely consistent with the decision makers decision"

    The phrase in your appeal papers is simply a template phrase. It has long been discredited by case law. Take a look at Rightsnet. 

    This has got me thinking. Are you saying that notwithstanding that the ability to drive a car to include all of the above mental and physical elements really cannot be used against a PIP claimant?
    I do have to agree that all or most of those elements have to be present when driving and thus logic dictates that they could be used against the claimant. This is exactly the position for me in that although I have a driving licence I know that because of reduced mental and physical abilities I will not drive as being a danger to both myself and other road users.
  • soconfusedsoconfused Member Posts: 101 Courageous
    edited January 2020
    Thanks. I have been reading Rightsnet.

    I'm saying that driving is cerebral - its ingrained in memory and from the point of passing test onwards becomes automatic. - so to argue the generic point it would also be wise to suggest walking and breathing are the same, and yet people aren't turned down for PIP if they can't do that properly.

    Same as cooking and other activities covered by PIP.

    Also happens to be on my birthday - bummer lol 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,369 Disability Gamechanger
    skullcap said:
    "The Ability of driving a car is in itself a multi-tasking activity requiring significant physical function in terms of grip, power and upper and lower joint movements in conjunction with substantial cognitive powers of thought, perception, memory, ,reasoning, concentration, judgement and co-ordination entirely consistent with the decision makers decision"

    The phrase in your appeal papers is simply a template phrase. It has long been discredited by case law. Take a look at Rightsnet. 

    This has got me thinking. Are you saying that notwithstanding that the ability to drive a car to include all of the above mental and physical elements really cannot be used against a PIP claimant?
    I do have to agree that all or most of those elements have to be present when driving and thus logic dictates that they could be used against the claimant. This is exactly the position for me in that although I have a driving licence I know that because of reduced mental and physical abilities I will not drive as being a danger to both myself and other road users.
    No, not saying that at all. The DWP definition of tasks involved in driving has been largely disproven and I think you’re in danger of focusing overly on one element of your case.
  • skullcapskullcap Member - under moderation Posts: 182 Courageous
    edited January 2020
    Thanks. I have been reading Rightsnet.

    I'm saying that driving is cerebral - its ingrained in memory and from the point of passing test onwards becomes automatic. - so to argue the generic point it would also be wise to suggest walking and breathing are the same, and yet people aren't turned down for PIP if they can't do that properly.

    Same as cooking and other activities covered by PIP.

    Also happens to be on my birthday - bummer lol 
    With respect I cannot agree entirely with you. I don't want to labour the point but passing a driving test as I did back in 1966 bears no relation to the amount of traffic and speed that exists on the roads today. I would never pass the test again. I'm far too over cautious, speed of decision making is woefully slow and reaction times far below that which is required. There is nothing automatic about it, The ability to physically drive on the roads today requires even more concentration and mental awareness than it did 54 years ago. In my opinion if you are safe to drive on current roads you have to have the same abilities as would a fit and healthy 25 year old.  
    I used to drive on the first motorway in Britain (Preston Bypass) as well as the new M6 that finished at Warrington going north!
    Of course I can drive (the mechanics) but unfortunately I'm not safe to use current roads.
    Breathing and walking have more to do with muscles than they are to do with long term memory.


  • soconfusedsoconfused Member Posts: 101 Courageous
    I've taken my test twice since I passed in 86. I get your point. However it's apparently mute so no need to discuss it anymore. I am more worried about the first tribunal right now 
  • soconfusedsoconfused Member Posts: 101 Courageous
    Well I had my WCA Tribunal today -and it was adjourned after 10 minutes because the DWP missed out vital pages of the bundle we both got so the Judge couldn't make a decision. They now want a year's worth of medical records from before my medical. 

    Also been told they want to see my PIP bundle - I pointed out that I have a tribunal in 2 weeks time and they should already have it  - Let's hope it's not postponed also. The judge wanted to know what I was awarded and what for. Is it usual for them to ask about PIP during a WCA hearing? Is it so she can deduce that the PIP assessment backs up the limited capability? I thought they were both separate? 

    I am more confused now - not sure if I should have ever appealed and although I can't lose my UC I have got it in my head I could well lose my PIP.. But only as I don't know any better. 
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Scope Posts: 10,662 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @soconfused, have you heard anything since? It must be extra tricky to be going through the process twice. Yes PIP is separate, but they may look at what you have been award. Please do let us know how you get on. :)
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  • soconfusedsoconfused Member Posts: 101 Courageous
    hi @Chloe_Scope. No I am waiting to get hold of the information the Tribunal requested - I have my PIP one tomorrow morning. I am shitting myself because the Judge ha already seen me on a good day - going to be hard to show her a bad one! (assuming it is the same judge and doctor) 

    But i'll let you know. 
  • bekindalwaysbekindalways Member - under moderation Posts: 105 Courageous
    Hello all.  Not long since been woken with spasms so thought I would give a wee insight to my recent dealings with the DWP.  History.... i was awarded 6 points DL and 4 points Mobility (for MH) when I very first applied for PIP in June 2017. Same on Mandatory reconsideration. The HP also stated that whilst I suffered from MH conditions, I had a 'good insight' was driving and that mobility couldn't have been a problem.  To be fair at that point I was undergoing several investigations with the hospital to exclude more serious illnesses due to the pain I had been in.  I took it tribunal where a DWP rep was there.  And yes she grilled me trying to catch me out.  I was subsequently awarded 11 points for daily living and 10 points for the planning and following journeys for 3 years to june 2020.

    On September 9 last year and seeing my mobility worsening since the award it took me nearly a year to put a change of circumstances in.  I had a home assessment again, in January (10) without any need of a drs letter.  It lasted nearly 2 hours.  I was genuinely shocked that she had read my application.  She was polite and refused my offers to do any physical movements as she could plainly see I was in pain.

    I told her I still drive but very rarely, maybe once a month to go to an appt, however, it is painful to get in and out of my car whether I am driving or not and told her this.  A few days later, my husband rang the DWP to request a copy of my report.  It was largely accurate.  30 pages long and full of distressing things to read. Throughout the different descriptors they said I had good insight into my illnesses. Judging by the report my points would have gone up to 18 points daily living and 22 points for mobility.

    Husband was informed weekly that it would take 4 - 6 weeks for a decision.  Until last week when he rang up 3 days after his last call and was told it would be 14-16 weeks. He requested to speak to a DM and was eventually put through.  When told it was unacceptable to change the timescale by 70+% in only 3 days, the DM went away and stated that he could award me enhanced on both over the phone.  That was thursday 20 feb.  I still haven't received the award letter as yet but yesterday a backdated payment went into my bank account covering the period from when my husband rang on 9 september for a C of C.

    I have always stressed the importance that my illnesses do not affect my ability to understand what I have.. sometimes I wish I was oblivious to them tbh.  I told the tribunal and the HP that, yes I have illnesses, yes I struggle daily, yes I can drive on the rare occasion I am able to and even then in pain...... i told them that it doesn't make me stupid, inept or totally worthless.

    I do so hope that my recent journey helps people realise that it is possible to be awarded the correct points regardless if you can drive or not.  It is all down to how you evidence it in the descriptors. I had to learn the hard way and it nearly crippled me. 

    Best wishes to all and good luck with your claims. Xxx  


  • soconfusedsoconfused Member Posts: 101 Courageous
    Thanks @bekindalways. That back payment was quick! They can drag their heals for up to 6 weeks if they wish

    hi @Chloe_Scope. I had my Tribunal - I have to say the Judge and Doctor were lovely. I didn't interact with the Disability Expert. Someone from DWP was there and we did speak briefly also about the WCA stuff which I found odd - but maybe they are wanting to sort both at the same time? . They wanted to speak about the anxiety and driving stuff - I was 2 points short of Enhanced so if they go in my favour I will have 20. If they don't then I won't. There were 10 people in the room. I was sweating like a hot cake but I did explain why I was so nervous. Turns out my anxiety and stuff was mentioned in the WCA report but I didn't remember that - so that's good means it's been noted for longer than I thought it had.

    Assuming they don't strip me of either UC or PIP nothing will change and I will be no worse off. 

    Now I have to wait for the letter. It took about 2 days last time for them to send me something  they wanted me to pass on.  (and my hearing was at 3PM)  So I will know either way by Monday/Tuesday

    In life I never expect anything but the worst - so I won't be so disappointed when they say no, if they say no. 
  • bekindalwaysbekindalways Member - under moderation Posts: 105 Courageous
    Hi soconfused

    Really pleased to hear that the Tribunal went well.  My fingers are crossed for you.  When I had mine back in March 2018, I rang the next morning and they told me over the phone.  HMCT service that is.  
    Hope you get the result you need. Xxx
  • soconfusedsoconfused Member Posts: 101 Courageous
    okay thanks I might give them a call tomorrow then! The decision would have been made today anyway so they will know. 
  • soconfusedsoconfused Member Posts: 101 Courageous
    They wouldn't tell me - just said a letter was on the way... 
  • soconfusedsoconfused Member Posts: 101 Courageous
    edited February 2020
    Hi @Chloe_Scope and @bekindalways

    And the letter has arrived.

    The Appeals is ALLOWED!!

    Dated from 23/3/2019 to 24/03/2023 so 2 years extension and they gave me 4 points in planning a journey when the DA gave me 0! which means I went from 10-14 points for Enhanced Mobility!

    I am SO happy and the decision was so quick. (Literally came out of the tribunal 11:45 yesterday) All seems to have been mainly on my doctors letter. And my anxiety was also mentioned in my WCA report but I didn't know this - so now I hope the tribunal also goes my way for that 

    So this is a good result right? :smile:
  • bekindalwaysbekindalways Member - under moderation Posts: 105 Courageous
    Hi So confused,

    Well done!!!  That is indeed wonderful news. Good for you. Xxx
  • soconfusedsoconfused Member Posts: 101 Courageous
    Thanks. I am glad I went for the Tribunal and I am glad I have got a years worth of backpay coming. -and also I have had an extra 2 years put onto my PIP award for both parts, 
  • bekindalwaysbekindalways Member - under moderation Posts: 105 Courageous
    You can now rest easy and concentrate on your health and wellbeing knowing that for whatever reason the Tribunal saw in your favour.  Try not to look into the why's and wherefore of their decision, put it behind you and enjoy your win.... you deserve it! Xxx 
  • soconfusedsoconfused Member Posts: 101 Courageous
    Thanks! It was due to my carer being there and my Doctor's letter - they said so in the letter :)

    I am now looking to see what sort of scooter I can get - I don't want a car anyway 
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Scope Posts: 10,662 Disability Gamechanger
    Really glad to hear this @soconfused! Thank you for letting us know. :)
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