PIP Tribunal Disaster

NotSoSerious

Today, I had my PIP Tribunal, it was a disaster, and I could tell from the way they were phrasing the questions, like "you have a degree, so you can..." and "you only take one tablet...", the three person panel, I was led to believe, was suposed to try and understand my difficulties, not judge me, and speak to me like dirt.

Upon being invited back in for the decision, which was a refusal, with 0 points (for both parts), and some words said, as well as a lecture on how "PIP is for people with serious disabilities", that is the reasoning behind my username too, so in their eyes, I don't have a serious disability. I was visibly upset while they were talking to me, I don't remember much of what was said, I really didn't care to listen.

They kept asking me to leave the room, I did, after the 3rd ask, but they didn't seem cared for my wellbeing, I was sat outside in tears, and bashing my head on the wall, I don't know why, other than being destoryed. No one seemed to care, people walked past, got on with their work, it was only the clerk from the tribunal room next to mine that decided to ask me if I was okay, and if there was someone in the waiting room for me. There was, my mum was there, so I have spent the day in rage, in tears, and feeling quite suicidal.

I don't know what to do, because I meet several points in the daily living, I know I do, so to refuse and give 0 points is utter crap. One example is number 5, toilet needs, I use incontinence pads every day, that is an aid, and thus qualifies for 2 points. Do they need me to pull down my trousers to prove it?

The whole situation left me feeling hurt, and humiliated, here were three people, not interested in what I had to say, they only brought up the stuff the DWP said. Did I roll bad, and get a pro-DWP panel? Or am I not really that disabled? Maybe I'm just making it all up, my hand spasms are all in my head, I only take one tablet, and well, I've got a degree!

I don't know if anyone here has any words of wisdom, but I am all out of energy now, my original application was in June 2018, it's now January 2020, and I don't think I can keep fighting. I'm going to need a carer when my perants are no longer able to look after me, but yeah.

Cheers for reading.

Firefly123

So sorry to hear it went so bad don't actually have any answers but just wanted you to know your not alone x

thespiceman

Hello @NotSoSerious   Thank you for sharing your experience at a tribunal sorry to hear this.

Very distressing and emotive for you.  I had been through many similar experiences.

Please this is not ever your fault never blame yourself.  

Remember you done nothing wrong.

Please if I can help you . I am one of the team of Community Champions.

One of our roles is to find, help and give members relevant associations or charities connected to their conditions or disabilities.

Please if you could contact me and I see what help, advice and relevant support is out there for you.

Mentioned this because most will attend the assessments, tribunals speak up for you, the incident you mentioned.

Would not happen, the person who attended if they did would contest it.

I had a floating support worker feisty lady go head to head with an assessor.

Assessor spoke to me not right and insinuations flew around the room, insisting never should have a support worker.

This started the support worker off, and the two verbally arguing.

I got a positive outcome.

Mental health services being one the charities I used all attended assessments, tribunals, benefit reviews.

Signed on again as I did constantly on and off for ten years plus years.

Had this roundabout assessments for more ten years or more.

One assessor say fit and then back to sign on, then around again unfit got benefits and then back years later to sign on.

Constant treadmill. Would have gone on, so used Mental health charities.

Will be no doubt reassesses again why at middle Fifties is there any point, not getting better not getting worse.

Please if I can be supportive please get in touch.

Your not alone, we are here to listen, please going to tag in my friend @poppy123456 to advise you further.

Lady has exceptional experience expertise knowledge on benefits problems. 

Please keep safe and warm, also never apologise for having a rant or having feeling emotions, need to talk we here.

I use this forum to chat open and be honest with my feelings.

Only friends are here need to offload, please also if you need to.

Have these suicidal thoughts or feelings may I suggest you talk to some one who is professional.

The Samaritans Calls free 116 123.

One final important point you mentioned a degree . I do understand that , I have lots of qualifications people see me the disability not the person who I am.

All wrong in my opinion you worked hard to obtain that.

 If you do feel you might need some help with anything anxiety or depression or those thoughts feelings nothing wrong in seeking help.

I use these three charities 

https://www.richmondfellowship.org.uk.

https://www.mind.org.uk.

https://www.rethink.org.

If you do apply will help with anything I had suggested.

Might not be in all areas.

Please take care you a valued respected  member of our community.

@thespiceman

poppy123456

Hi,

You now have 1 month from the date of the decision to request the statement of reasons and record of proceedings. Once you receive those you'll need to find someone to take a look to find the error in law. If this is found then you'll be able to appeal the decision, if not then you won't be able to take this any further. If it is found then the whole process could take another year.

You could start another claim but doing so using the same evidence you previously used could see another refusal and the whole process starts again.

Did you get some help with the Tribunal? What evidence did you send? Did you give examples of what happened the last time you attempted that activity for each descriptor that applies to you? A poorly presented case often leads to refusal.

For expert advice regarding this start by looking here https://advicelocal.uk/

NotSoSerious

Thank you all for the replies.

@thespiceman I can't help blame myself, I should have been more assertive in answers, and pulled up panel members on assumptions they made about having a degree, and only one tablet, but I didn't, I got completly blindsided. I was under the impression that the panel was supposed to try and find out my difficulties, but they were taking the DWP medical report as gospel, they didn't ask about the submission I had made.

As for calling the Samaritans, part of the problems I have with anxiety is making phonecalls, so I can't call them. I can email them, but I find that as beneficial as posting on a forum, which does help get some of my thoughts out. My perants are keeping a closer eye on me at the moment now, my dad is my primary carer, seperated from my mum, but she keeps in touch often. My best therapist is my cat, he sits and listens to me, and stays with me, seems to know when I am not well.

@poppy123456 I have requested a statement of reasons, probably won't get looked at until next week, then it takes a while doesn't it. There already is an error of law from what my understanding is, since I meet 5b already, with the use of pads, 3b I also meet because of the use of a pill box, even if it is "one one tablet" I also require someone else to keep my mental health in check, and make sure I tell the doctor things, so there are points there, but the tribunal awarded 0, so what else haven't they taken into account?

As far as help, I got help filling in all the forms, and understanding the questions on the forms, for evidence, it was a submission of my difficulties, and some GP letters. I couldn't send a mental health report, because the mental health service here seems to have lost it. I didn't give an example for each descriptor that applies, I didn't get asked those questions, and I didn't see a chance to mention them, I have problems putting forward information that isn't asked for. So yes, it was probably a poorly presented case, because it was just me, and I had no idea what I was doing.

poppy123456

The Judge can take as long as they like to write the SOR and send it to you. You also said " I also require someone else to keep my mental health in check, and make sure I tell the doctor things, so there are points there" which activity are you thinking this applies to?

I'd advise you to have a look at this link, it will give you more of an understanding of the PIP descriptors and what they mean.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria You need at least 8 points for a standard award.

thespiceman

Hello @NotSoSerious   Your post concerns me as a member of this community, I consider myself a caring gentleman have a heart.

You added this is something I do not understand mental health team lost report..

Please can I ask did you ask them to attend tribunal, this is something you needed to do.

Understand not assertive not strong, I am going to add write it down then speak to who ever is responsible for your care.

Write down can you help me with this please thank you.

Staff these days do ring your home and offer sorry that is the truth.  You have to say needs have to help yourself sorry but true.

All mental health teams do not run your life  Be honest open and ask for anything you need and if they say no find some one else.

I do. not happy go else where I did.  I got a lot of support, advice learnt to educate my self and have extensive knowledge use it on here.

All mental health teams have a code a duty of care if it not working do you use the links I supplied.

Here is something your missing . One charity Richmond Fellowship have a lot to offer but also have an employment programmes for clientele.

Even considering those who have a degree, could be useful to use and be supported in the charity.

Work for them, many former clientele do.

Understand it is your decision but your missing out on a lot of help, opportunities and anything else.

I have walked a mile in your shoes and more, I am a chatty gent as my lovely friends on here will say to you.

Yet on a sofa a quiet insecure shaking wreck.  Meeting a feisty no nonsense opinionated direction female support worker telling me how it is. Woke up that day had to if I had to get better.

I have regrets of course wasted thirty years drinking hurting harming myself.

Now clean sorted found my faith and cope best I can.

Mental health disability illness is a struggle and I meet many people every day all hours days and night into early mornings.

You have to take small steps.

I admire you have one thing I never ever had loving caring parents.

My were abusers mental harming, used me as a feed bucket their own personal bank, Their own personal taxi service and much more.

Bullying, controlling and other abuse, too painful.

Now living on my own see no one every day speak to my lovely friends each day if I can on here.

Wish you well.

@thespiceman






 

NotSoSerious

Sorry @poppy123456 there's no way for me to make sense of the text in that link, as for the activity I am thinking of, I was thinking of the one with monitoring a health condition.

@thespiceman I am sorry to hear about your problems with perants, it's something I can never understand. As for my mental health assessment, I had one about 3 or 4 years ago, because some issues were getting worse, but I never heard back about the report, nor did my GP, tried chasing it, but got nowhere.

@ilovecats for the use of pads, I need to, at night, there is an amount of leakage that would cause issues, and during the day, small amounts of leakage are still going to cause issues. I can't think of a none medical need for wearing pads, they aren't fun to wear. As for the pill box, as I explained at my tribunal, there will be times I forget if I have taken my tablets, so being able to check is very helpful, otherwise I risk taking another, or not taking it atall.

poppy123456

You would not score points in activity 3 managing and monitoring a health condition for needing someone to keep your health in check and to make sure you tell the Doctor things, this isn't part of this activity. My daughter attends appointments with me to help me remember what has been said. My short term memory is affected but my long term memory isn't but i wouldn't expect to score points for this because i know it's not part of the criteria.

The dosette box is the same activity but a different descriptor, so the maximum that could be scored here is just 1 point. Unless you have therapy which must be done in your home.

A lot of people use incontinence pads but it doesn't mean they will score points in the PIP descriptors for using them.

I think there's a lot of misunderstanding with what you think the descriptors mean and this is part of your problem here.

NotSoSerious

A lot of my problem is a misunderstanding, story of my life that is.

cristobal

@notsoserious - I did a bit of research before I applied for PIP.

I can't seem to find it right now (sorry) but I seem to remember that if you wear a pad because of 'leakage' then you wouldn't score points - needs to be more akin to Niagara Falls than a dripping tap...

As others have said you won't score points for using a dosette box because it's 'very helpful' rather than medically necessary..

If I can find the incontinence stuff I'll post it for you...

NotSoSerious

@crisobal it's not a dripping tap, I can share a photo after a night, but I don't think anyone wants to see that! It's closer to spilling a cup, or two, which would certainly be a noticeable wet spot, and even during the day, it can be less of a drip, and more of a small stream, which would again be noticable if I wasn't wearing pads.

poppy123456

Even if 2 points are possible here, that's not enough for an award. Even with the dosette box that's still not enough for an award because you need 8 points. You've not mentioned any other activities for daily living and there's another 8 of them.

It does help to have some understanding because you can have a disability but not be entitled to PIP.  If you don't meet the descriptors then you won't score the points for an award. You can't appeal a decision because you think it's wrong.

Applying again would be pointless, if you used the same evidence you just used. Are you able to get some face to face advice?

thespiceman

Hello @NotSoSerious   I am sorry what has happened but you need to consider the options available to you.

Four years is along time missing the opportunities and chances to sort yourself out.

Understand you may be some misunderstandings confusion but you have to give yourself some peace, solace.

Responsibility is one word  I use for me, I am responsible for my mental health.

My wellbeing my issues fears insecurities of relapses. My illness but it is up to me good food, have good sleep exercise and think of ways of improvement.

Mental health is not all about drugs medicines and consulting the Doctor.

Mental health is a state of mind that effects every day feeling and emotions, triggers and responses.

To trauma and incidents to find solutions and some answers.

I have done a lot of research, information gleaned and scrutinised.

Have a library of books to look at, all can add worth consulting these.

Mindfulness, self hypnosis, CBT, garden therapy . All proved to help mental health and physical and also emotive feelings.

All mental health charities have conferences where new ideas initiatives, new addictions and problems discussed in a open forum.

Question answer sessions enlightening, stimulating and looking now at the alternatives.

Mental health is a Western Condition not prevalent in the Far East. Something myself doing some research on, as they use herbs, spices therapies to help themselves.

I use one Tia Chi slow movements every morning works wonders.

Lots of this discussed in support meetings meet others like you.

My concern is you and do care as I think they might get worse your mental health if not being treated correctly.

Just a thought.

I do understand you and maybe you do not understand yourself. Has been known, sometimes we are clouded, foggy not thinking straight does and can happen.

I had this myself by the way so used the education, knowledge to cope.

I wish you well and please think about any of the links supplied new life new opportunities to be helped and cope with

Is that not important getting help this situation the right people in your corner..

To help you guide you and speak for you.


Please take care.


@thespiceman

dolfrog

NotSoSerious said:

Today, I had my PIP Tribunal, it was a disaster, and I could tell from the way they were phrasing the questions, like "you have a degree, so you can..." and "you only take one tablet...", the three person panel, I was led to believe, was suposed to try and understand my difficulties, not judge me, and speak to me like dirt.

Upon being invited back in for the decision, which was a refusal, with 0 points (for both parts), and some words said, as well as a lecture on how "PIP is for people with serious disabilities", that is the reasoning behind my username too, so in their eyes, I don't have a serious disability. I was visibly upset while they were talking to me, I don't remember much of what was said, I really didn't care to listen.

They kept asking me to leave the room, I did, after the 3rd ask, but they didn't seem cared for my wellbeing, I was sat outside in tears, and bashing my head on the wall, I don't know why, other than being destoryed. No one seemed to care, people walked past, got on with their work, it was only the clerk from the tribunal room next to mine that decided to ask me if I was okay, and if there was someone in the waiting room for me. There was, my mum was there, so I have spent the day in rage, in tears, and feeling quite suicidal.

I don't know what to do, because I meet several points in the daily living, I know I do, so to refuse and give 0 points is utter crap. One example is number 5, toilet needs, I use incontinence pads every day, that is an aid, and thus qualifies for 2 points. Do they need me to pull down my trousers to prove it?

The whole situation left me feeling hurt, and humiliated, here were three people, not interested in what I had to say, they only brought up the stuff the DWP said. Did I roll bad, and get a pro-DWP panel? Or am I not really that disabled? Maybe I'm just making it all up, my hand spasms are all in my head, I only take one tablet, and well, I've got a degree!

I don't know if anyone here has any words of wisdom, but I am all out of energy now, my original application was in June 2018, it's now January 2020, and I don't think I can keep fighting. I'm going to need a carer when my perants are no longer able to look after me, but yeah.

Cheers for reading.

Sorry to hear of the disability discrimination you have experienced, we are going through similar experiences in the current corrupt system, hopefully you can find some local support and get the help you so desperately need,

NotSoSerious

@poppy123456 yeah, I was only using that one descriptor because it's one that seems fairly easy for me to get my head around, I can't get my head around any of the others really. There is no version in a more simpler format that I can find, reading isn't a strength of mine.

I have found a list that give some examples that I can understand.

1) Preparing Food

Because of hand tremours, which have gotten worse, and were bad at the time of applying for PIP, these means using any sharp impliment is unsafe, and I risk cutting myself, additionally pots are hard to use, so to be able to prepare a meal, I would need adapted cooking items. So my dad mainly cooks for me, and I have microwave meals if he is not around, and all that said, with my depression, I often (over 50% of the time) have to be prompted to make sure I eat, if no one was around, I just wouldn't eat most days, because it seems like too much effort, and I don't feel I am worth the food.

2) Taking nutrition

Tremours result in me spilling food, all the time if it's a food that spills, which is most foods, as well as drink, the anmount of times I spill tea or coffee on me is unreal. So the use of an aid would really be helpful, but I don't really have the money to look at that, weighted cultery is expensive! And again, I need promting to eat, and checking to make sure that I have eaten, because depression is fun like that.

3) I'll skip this one.

4) Washing and bathing

Hard to argue I imagin, but I need prompting to wash, because I won't do it otherwise, this is caused by depression, so unaided, yes, but without being told/reminded, then no.

5) Managing toilet needs or incontinence

Covered in this thread.

6) Dressing and undressing

Not being

7) Communicating verbally

I suspect I don't qualify, there are some complex statements that I struggle with from time to time, too much information at once can cause a problem, but it depends what is called too much.

8) Reading and understanding signs, symbols and words

I don't think my level of dyslexia applies.

9) Engaging with other people face to face

I don't really meet new people, the people I have made friends with have been online, or met through people I already know. Such as a group of people I was introduced to by my older brother, to which he stayed around, because it was a social gaming group, so he was always there, and that helped, he helped me to engage and get me involved. All my social engagements have been with someone I know there, being with me, and engaging with me.

10) Making budgeting decisions

I can make a simple decision, I can add and subtract, I can see how much I have in my bank, and subtract what I am going to buy from there. I can't manage a budget, I can't organise myself well enough to even work out how to do that, and bills just start to confuse me with terms, like insurance, I just can't get my head around them.

11) Planning and following journeys

I don't suppose this really matters too much, but I can't plan a journey to a place that I am unfamilair with, without help, or someone with me. So my dad taking me somewhere in his car, so that I can get an idea of the surroundings, then telling me what busses to catch. And if it is a long jounrey, then I will likely avoid it if no one is going with me, this is because it causes me distress through anxiety, and going to my mums is a long journey, which means for me to see her, I have to be taken on a bus with someone, or driven, or she meets me, which is the usual case. Taxies I also can't do, because drivers often like to talk, and this causes me anxiety.

12) Not relevent.

And that's all she wrote.

mikehughescq

ilovecats said:

Regarding 5B and 3B, it’s not about whether you do or don’t use them, it’s about establishing a medical need to use aids.

Many people with adequate cognition use a dosette box just because it’s easier, but they don’t medically need to. 

Its sounds like the tribunal feels you can manage effectively (rightly or wrongly) without aids.

I’m afraid this is not the full picture.

Clearly there has to be a connection but the law refers solely to something counting as an aid where it “might improve, provide or replace an impaired physical or mental function.” Effectively it has to be reasonably required because of functional impairment  rather than medically required. It’s an error of interpretation which has persisted from DLA care. 

A dosette, which often come in shapes which make them easy to drop and break and often require a firm grip to open a specific lid is not, in my experience, used “just because it’s easier” but is used because it’s easier precisely because of an inoaured function. 

Allow me to give an example. Someone with sight impairment will find a day lamp useful in order to do fine work or read some but not all documents. There us no medical need for them to do that but in those circumstances a day lamp always counts as an aid because the lamp improves the functional loss. 

Would you care to give an example of a dosette being used where there was no functional impairment?

Adrian_Scope

Hi @NotSoSerious. How are you doing today? I hope this thread has been useful to you, but I was a bit concerned about your mental health after the post you made on Friday night.

Obviously you've been recommended Samaritans and understandably wouldn't be able to access them via telephone, but can I ask if you've tried Shout? They're a crisis text service that you can access by texting SHOUT to 85258. While we're more than happy for you to post here, we're not a crisis service, so wouldn't be able to provide you with the care nor expertise you perhaps need. That said, while as a pan disability charity it's fair to say our strengths lie more in the daily lives of disabled people, we would be willing to seek out some local support for you. If that's something you might like to pursue, please get in touch with us on [email protected]
In the meantime, if you feel like you might be in immediate danger, please make sure to contact the emergency services, or go to your local hospital.

NotSoSerious

Hi @Adrian_Scope thank you for the post, I have not heard about SHOUT so I might give that a try! I have found this thread useful, it's good to just have a place to post.

Currently my parents are keeping a close eye on me. I am better than I was Friday but I still hurt, and haven't really slept since Wednesday, so I may need to get an urgent appointment with my GP. 

My cat has also been a great therapist, always there for me, and brings me his favourite toy when I am feeling really bad!

cristobal

@mikehughesscq - I agree with Ilovecats on the dosette box issue.

I have family members who use a box "because they find it easier" - they're not impaired and also myself - I initially started to use  it just so that I can sort my tablets out for the week as i find it 'more convenient'

I think that you are confusing why people actually use them i.e. who needs to use one and who doesn't...

NotSoSerious

I don't use a dosette box because it's easier, I use it because it helps remind me if I have, or haven't taken my medication. Even though I have just the one tablet at the moment, I have had more in the past, and it is still being reviewed by my GP.

Without the box, I risk either not taking my tablet, or taking another. Eitherway, 1 tablet or 10, it doesn't matter because if I don't take it, I won't be having a very good day...

thespiceman

Hello @NotSoSerious   You could do a page a day diary, I do.

New meds have to first time along time morning make a note in the diary, knew every morning need to look . Or put a note on the wall sticky one need to read diary.

Once you get in to a routine example make  a breakfast then have meds as food helps .

To process meds, often easier to digest,.  

Photocopy evidence and show it .

A suggestion.

@thespiceman

thespiceman

One other anything memory not sure write it down and use it as a guide.

When your an alcoholic memory lapse evident, lights on leaving switches on and sometime memory senior ones.

Also make a checklist of anything  you need to do night time or evening or morning to do with your routine taking meds.

Use the diary page a day.

Hope that helps .

@thespiceman

NotSoSerious

ilovecats said:

Clearly in this case (rightly or wrongly) the tribunal could not establish a medical need (or functional restriction) for the use of these aids in this persons case.

I don't think this panel would have been able to find chips in a fish and chip shop though to be fair. For their tone, they had made up their minds long before I got there, the doctor, after asking his questions looked disinterested, just looked like he switched off. In the case of the pill box, who knows, I have explained why I use it in an above post, but that's not really medical, but it's also not a choice, or for my own convinence, it's because I do forget.

@thespiceman a diary sounds like a good idea, I have tried in the past, then I get distracted, so bad at keeping focused, and getting into a routine. I can try it again, I do like the idea.

thespiceman

Hello @NotSoSerious   Thank you for reply. Buy a bright red or brightly coloured one. Page a day.

We all of us get distracted but meds if you don't use them or forget the body can be effected.

Headaches, nausea and other signs dizzy become evident.

I am up and about now diary look every day a routine, with out it my day falls apart.

Glimmer of hope the one aid I use, I forget to add used this and have done . Put on forms even my support worker asked me, will do that.

Photocopied evidence a weeks worth, included on the pages.

Sell by dates, produce add other things I forget and things like that are in my opinion may be relevant.

After all I do know need to use that item up.

Also add in dates, appointments, house work duties, ironing other wise be no clothes end up in my lounge pants all day.

Washing up and other tasks freezer, fridge preparation when delivery arrives from TESCO.

All frozen produce is put in to zip or clip bags portioned ready for use, saves a lot of space.

All freezer produce comes in bags once undone spillages, not a lot of room.

Do this with frozen meat tin foil wrapped even frozen, still do it portion it.

Label..  Everything, bread and bread products.

I have to do this because first saves me money, second wastage we buy these products and why waste money if not eating.

Also add in diary freezer meals for my self, Meatballs, Chicken Broth, Ragu Sauce and much more in to tin foil containers.

I have no family or friends only on here.

Live alone see no one most weeks , only time taxi drivers and the TESCO delivery ladies, gents who are good to me.

Hope that inspired and helps you, please anything else to do with routines, schemes, plans and time savers.

I am always here, one other try to be thinking positivity. I do get distracted restless only because I need to fill my days with a routine, things to heal me.

Understand every one is different but life is that what you wish to make of it.

One important achievement you have done is reaching out, be here.

All of us have walked a mile in your shoes. Happy to be supportive, although we have the knowledge, expertise.

It is up to you to act upon it and be responsive. No one like telling a valued member what to do ,but I have to be listening if others whom.

I am following looking up to know more than me.

Have respect much love, care and concern for the members of our forum who have given the inspirations the wisdom and much more.

The guidance the important reassurance. Write it down and use it to use as references.

Please take care.

@thespiceman