PIP, DLA and AA
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Is this odd? Tribunal related.

lukeuklukeuk Member - under moderation Posts: 19 Member - under moderation
I had my telephone hearing today. Obviously today is Thursday (I'm clever I know). After the 1hr 15min phone call, the judge said 'ok well we have a lot to think about here so we will send you our decsion in the post". In the post? There are postage delays, its Thursday so we miss the weekend too. I cant wait that long I'll go our of my mind?! Is it normal for them to not tell you there and then and say they'll send it in thr post?

Replies

  • woodbinewoodbine Member Posts: 2,105 Disability Gamechanger
    it does happen, I would agree that there were big postal delays at the start of this mess, but I'm receiving first class mail in 24 hours again now.
    Fingers x it's a good outcome for you.
  • lukeuklukeuk Member - under moderation Posts: 19 Member - under moderation
    woodbine said:
    it does happen, I would agree that there were big postal delays at the start of this mess, but I'm receiving first class mail in 24 hours again now.
    Fingers x it's a good outcome for you.
    Is this usually a good or bad indication that they want to do it by post. Usually I only get bad news in the post. 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 4,974 Disability Gamechanger
    The Bench Book advises panels to post most decisions of oral hearings out. This was rumoured to be because the primary author had experience of being physically attacked during a hearing. Nevertheless most judges will give a decision on the day where they can unless matters are running late or they too believe there is a potential threat. 

    If they do issue a decision on the day they are obliged to give you a paper summary decision as well. 

    As regards telephone hearings the panel have to make their decision post hearings over the phone. They cannot give you a paper summary decision on the day si they cannot give you a decision on the day. The summary decision has to be dictated over the phone to a clerk working remotely so it can be printed and posted. Any delays will be because HMCTS are working with a skeleton staff rather than an issue with Royal Mail. 

    So, nothing is to be read into whether this is good or bad. It is simply normal.
  • lizzyburnslizzyburns Member Posts: 12 Connected
    @lukeuk how did it go? what type of questions did they ask you? did they said how long it will take to get a letter? also what do you believe you should get?
  • lukeuklukeuk Member - under moderation Posts: 19 Member - under moderation
    @lizzyburns it basically was like a do over of the PIP assessment, only with the independent tribunal panel rather than the corrupt DWP liars. 

    They basically went over each question in the PIP2 questionnaire.

    I think I'm entitled to a standard daily living after doing PIP2 calculators online, I've had to cut back to part time hours as my condition has worsened since my pip assessment last august and it's looking like the underlying cause is N24 (a rare sleep wake disorder). The huge issue is that they dont allow or take into consideration how your condition is at the current day. They keep asking how you were back then and what information you had back then. So even if you have changes to your circumstances like a new diagnoses or worsening symptoms or new test evidence they cant take that into consideration because that wasnt availible at the time of the original dwp assessment. So for that reason, I feel I wont get PIP on this occasion.  But after I've seen this consultant for the N24  investigations I'll apply again. The issue is the waiting because I can guarantee it will go all the way through the tribunal stage again. If only the assessments were done by the courts in the first place, it would save a whole lot of time. Also, I'll miss out on the backdated pip from August by going for it again.  I think when I have to go to the dwp for my assessment and the liars are asking me questions I'll.just say 'no comment, I'll answer at the tribunal' because they dont write down what you say anyway. 
  • lizzyburnslizzyburns Member Posts: 12 Connected
    @lukeuk I agree they are corrupt.!!!! they HCP tell lies. when I went to mine I taken a recorder and gave them a copy if they requested it as I’m within my legal rights to do that. as I made them aware as that’s what I’m going to do. they don’t like being recorded but your within your rights to do that as long as you inform them why your doing it and give them a copy. I get my award review letter around October time and without sounding too sure I no I will get it again as I’m legally entitled to it. I would never give up for someone I should be getting. when DWP reject people they want you to just give up and that’s it. but I don’t ! 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 4,974 Disability Gamechanger
    lukeuk said:

    I think I'm entitled to a standard daily living after doing PIP2 calculators online, I've had to cut back to part time hours as my condition has worsened since my pip assessment last august and it's looking like the underlying cause is N24 (a rare sleep wake disorder). The huge issue is that they dont allow or take into consideration how your condition is at the current day. They keep asking how you were back then and what information you had back then. So even if you have changes to your circumstances like a new diagnoses or worsening symptoms or new test evidence they cant take that into consideration because that wasnt availible at the time of the original dwp assessment. So for that reason, I feel I wont get PIP on this occasion.  But after I've seen this consultant for the N24  investigations I'll apply again. The issue is the waiting because I can guarantee it will go all the way through the tribunal stage again. If only the assessments were done by the courts in the first place, it would save a whole lot of time. Also, I'll miss out on the backdated pip from August by going for it again.  I think when I have to go to the dwp for my assessment and the liars are asking me questions I'll.just say 'no comment, I'll answer at the tribunal' because they dont write down what you say anyway. 
    PIP software is unreliable and will almost never give you any clue as to actual entitlement. You need advice. 

    I’ve dealt with the change of circumstances issue on your other posts. They have never looked at change of circumstances post appeal since 1948. However, no e of the things you describe as changes of circumstance are that at all. A new diagnosis; worsening symptoms and new test results are not in themselves enough to suggest you might score more points. 

    However, because of this it’s important to say that applying again after seeing a consultant could also be a complete waste of time. If all that has changed is your diagnosis then for PIP purposes nothing has changed. If nothing has changed then you’ll likely get the same outcome. Multiple applications do not play well with decision makers or appeals so you would be well advised to get advice urgently as to whether you actually have the possibility of a successful claim. 
  • janer1967janer1967 Community champion Posts: 6,083 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi as others have advised it isn't unusual to get a decision by post even those attending f2f tribunals have the decision posted out. Fingers crossed you get the result you are hoping for .

    As explained they only look at your condition as it was at the time of your assessment as this is the decision your are appealing against. You have not been assessed with your new conditions so how can they take this into account at an appeal ? 
  • lukeuklukeuk Member - under moderation Posts: 19 Member - under moderation
    @mikehughescq the issue that I think will be my downfall is that I mentioned I have ulcerative colits as a contributing factor to the fatigue that the 'insomnia' causes. But both at the PIP f2f assessment and the tribunal they kept tunnel visioning on the UC. Each time I tried to swerve them away from the UC and back to the sleep disorder (which is the main reason I applied for the PIP) they swerved back to the colits. If I applied again I'd only mention the sleep disorder and how that affects me and my ability to work. The issue that I face is that everywhere I go, family, friends, work, there is so much prejudice about my sleep disorder. People dont understand the gravity of going without ANY sleep at all routinely for 4 days a week and how that affects how much you can work and do other activities. I would never want to give up work completely, but I have had to go part time now as this condition is getting worse. But because I went part time in september and my assessment was in August they couldn't take that into consideration and one of the main factors was that they said 'oh because you can work full time I cant see this is having an effect on you', so that would be a change in my new application, in addition to a consultants letter describing how debilitating it is, as well as focusing only on the N24 and not my colitis. 

    I dont intend to be making application after application of failed attempts, but the truth of the matter is that I am physically and mentally unable to work fulltime anymore and I need a couple of hundred in PIP per month to bridge the gap so I can pay my bills.  
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 4,974 Disability Gamechanger
    I’d turn it round completely in terms of how you should be thinking about it. 

    Your N24 is a recent diagnosis and not a widely known condition. PIP doesn’t require a diagnosis as long as the symptoms are accepted as real. However, at your date of claim it doesn’t sound like your diagnosis was confirmed so to them you’re just a claimant working FT with an odd sleeping pattern and whose sleeping pattern could be argued to be little more than a lifestyle choice without that diagnosis. Thus it strikes me that the HCP and tribunal were trying to do you a favour by getting you to concentrate on the UC, which is confirmed and known to be extremely debilitating for some people. When you then played that down you effectively lost because you gave them nothing to latch onto at all. 

    If you applied again it would be a mistake to fail to mention the UC or to not talk about it in depth. Equally, even with a confirmed diagnosis of N24 you will need expert help to explain it in detail and how it impacts in terms of scoring points. Like Fibro, IBS and MC/CFS the medical profession are not wholly in agreement about it and so that also needs to be factored in.

    You also need to put work to one side. Work is only relevant to PIP if starting work suggests you no longer meet specific descriptors. You can claim PIP in or out if work so the extent to which you work is interesting but not decisive. Same with a consultants letter. A consultant explaining how debilitating it is in general terms will get you nowhere. The single most important thing missing in your case is you. 

    Instead of complaining about prejudice or lack of understanding you need to link your conditions to each of the PIP descriptors; explain how attempting those activities us impacted by both conditions and then give real world examples of incidents when you attempted those specific points scoring activities. Two detailed examples per activity and you’re home and dry. 

    The problem you likely have is that the nature if your condition will make it hard for you to both recall stuff and write it down. This is exactly why you need an adviser and representative. They will prompt your recall and they will get it written down. 

    I know this is hard. I went the best part of 5 years with 30 to 90 minutes sleep per night thanks to an ill child. However, there are people out there to help you. You need to recognise that both your health conditions make this near impossible for you to do alone and go get a rep.
  • lukeuklukeuk Member - under moderation Posts: 19 Member - under moderation
    @mikehughescq what yove said though is contradictory to what admins have told me on here.

    Firstly, I just want to adress you've just done what I described as prejudice. 30 to 90 minutes of regeneration is still some regeneration. It's not the same as no regeneration at all.  

    Secondly, I did match live events to descriptors on my application which got me nowhere. I only struggle when asked on the spot to recall things. 

    Then, moving onto your point about a representative, I asked over and over again on here for help in finding one, and admins kept telling me there is no need for one. 

    Also, there are loads of YouTube videos about PIP and tribunal experiences, I watched one guy who went to court and the judge had to postpone the court because his representative knew one of the panel members and the judge actually said to him, that it would be in his favour and that he should consider getting all of your medical letters because as it stood he didnt have a case, they then proceeded to get all of his medical letters and they made him win his case. 

    I'm not an idiot Mike, I have done a ton of research and when doing my written application all I did was match how my symptoms match up to the descriptors  and did examples and I repeated what I put in the booklet to her  But the assessor didn't put that in her report. 

    I'm starting to get a rather unsupportive vibe from you, and since I come here for support its counterproductive. I havent met a lot of people who support the new system, DLA was much fairer under the labour government, conservatives have just yet again made it harder for people with a disability to live. 

    Can you do me favour and not reply with anything inflammatory, you come across very managerial. If the system really worked,.I wouldnt be here. Just because your experience was positive in getting pip doesn't mean  that the system works. 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 4,974 Disability Gamechanger
    edited May 2020
    I’ve no idea what your second paragraph means at all I’m afraid. I’m not being rude. I genuinely don’t. 

    I can’t comment on what others have told you but, to me, it is patently obvious that you need advice and a rep. Start with https://advicelocal.uk/.

    YouTube videos can be useful but YouTube is about as reliable source for benefits advice as Facebook i.e. not very much. 

    It would be standard that if any party to an appeal knew a panel member then the appeal would be adjourned but I’m not sure what the relevance of that is here. It’s an exceptionally rare scenario. It’s more likely the appellant would know the medical professional on a tribunal for example. Either way it’s so exceptional it would never be a reason to not get a rep. That’s a scenario I’ve not come across in 34 years. 

    There is probably a consensus out there that medical evidence is always good. I disagree and I disagree for solid reasons which can be evidenced. Whether you choose to accept my reasons are entirely up to you but the reality is the current approach taken hasn’t worked. So... 

    - 52% of disability benefit claims which succeed do so without any medical evidence.
    - Almost all related tribunals are not won by a piece of medical evidence. They are won by anecdotal evidence from the claimant/appellant. 
    - medical evidence is helpful where a claimant lacks insight into their own health eg mental ill health or learning disability. I’ve never found it especially helpful in other circumstances. 

    A letter giving a diagnosis is not especially helpful if the diagnosis is not in dispute. A letter giving the prognosis is helpful if it’s in dispute but it rarely is. Few DWP decision makers conclude that long term degenerative conditions aren’t. What else can a medical letter say? It can list meds. What’s the point? You already put them in your claim pack. It could list your symptoms but that’s only useful if they are your actual symptoms and not just the sorts of symptoms the medical professional would expect you to have. It’s also not useful if they don’t describe the extent of your symptoms. 

    I hear what you’re saying about the HCP. That’s a common experience in a significant minority of cases but focusing on the HCP report rarely gets you PIP. I note what you say about putting in anecdotal evidence. Could you give some examples here to show how you related them to a descriptor?

    I’m sorry you found my post unsupportive and I’m sorry if you find this similar or inflammatory. I spent a considerable amount of time reading the thread and the issue before responding and my intent was to explain in detail why you are where you are. Sometimes that isn’t what people want to hear and I do understand that but then the other way of looking at it would be that all the online research and videos etc. have resulted in nil entitlement. You have yet to seek advice from a professional adviser. When you do they may not agree with my comments re: medical evidence but I am confident they will agree with my comments about UC, the relevance of work etc. and what’s needed to make a successful claim. 

    A couple of corrections:

    I’ve no idea where you got the idea I’m a PIP claimant from. I’m not. 

    The Tories brought DLA in during 1992 not Labour. Labour made no signify can’t changes to DLA at all. 

  • lukeuklukeuk Member - under moderation Posts: 19 Member - under moderation
    @mikehughescq I didnt say labour brought in DLA? I said it was conservative that decided to change it from DLA to PIP and hundreds of disabled people have now lost out in payments as a result. 

    If you are not a claimant, what is your background? Do you work for the DWP, the courts, or another government body?  

    I'm not going to keep doing this back and forth anymore it's getting me infuriated, and by me deciding not to does not mean I give in to your side of things, i simply just dont have the energy and dont gave anything to gain.  I came here for like minded individuals to show a little empathy.  To which we are not. For example, if you had a bad day at work, you came home to your wife, told her, and she started to side with the thing or person that made you unhappy, that's the sane as me having a bad experience of the pip process, coming here for support, and getting an individual who is showing allegiance for the system. 
  • chiariedschiarieds Community champion Posts: 6,223 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @lukeuk - I'm sorry to read that @mikehughescq comments have disconcerted you. This is indeed a very supportive community. The only brief response from Admins was that you didn't need a lawyer/solicitor, but representation could help with a tribunal, so his response was not contradicting that. You were previously advised by them to check https://advicelocal.uk/
    I also spent some time reading through your previous threads.
    I don't feel Mike was prejudicial in describing his own personal deprivation of sleep over his ill child, rather showing empathy, even tho your problems may be way worse.
    The PIP system, as any, isn't perfect, but people here give the very best advice they can in order to help, & we need to just work with what is currently in place.
    If you click on your username, then 'Replies' you can check on what has been said in your previous posts, & check the veracity of my comments.
    No-one is against you here; people comment as they're genuinely trying to help.


  • lukeuklukeuk Member - under moderation Posts: 19 Member - under moderation
    @chiarieds just stop it now. I don't need people ganging up on me. That's the definition of bullying.
    I really wish I could just block people on here. 
  • chiariedschiarieds Community champion Posts: 6,223 Disability Gamechanger
    Certainly not my intent, & sorry you perceived it that way. If you don't want to see someones posts here, click on your username. You will see a cogwheel icon under this to the extreme right, under that click on 'Edit profile' & you will see there's an 'Ignore list'. Then add the usernames of those you wish to ignore.
  • lukeuklukeuk Member - under moderation Posts: 19 Member - under moderation
    @chiarieds dont you dare do the fake apology line with me. How thick do you think I am? An apology is an acknowledgement of wrongdoing by the individual who did wrong. All you did was say I perceived something incorrectly. I did not. You saw I was getting annoyed at one particular member in this thread, so what did you do? you echoed their voice. And you say I'm the one with a bad sense of perception. How could you possibly think that would go down well.

    I'm now telling both yourself and @mikehughescq to stop weighing in on MY thread. Go and troll somewhere else. 

    Seriously. Neither of you reply, if you want to genuinely so right, then do nothing and leave this thread. 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 4,974 Disability Gamechanger
    edited May 2020
    lukeuk said:
    @mikehughescq ...
    If you are not a claimant, what is your background? Do you work for the DWP, the courts, or another government body?  

    I'm not going to keep doing this back and forth anymore it's getting me infuriated, and by me deciding not to does not mean I give in to your side of things, i simply just dont have the energy and dont gave anything to gain.  I came here for like minded individuals to show a little empathy.  To which we are not. For example, if you had a bad day at work, you came home to your wife, told her, and she started to side with the thing or person that made you unhappy, that's the sane as me having a bad experience of the pip process, coming here for support, and getting an individual who is showing allegiance for the system. 
    I’m here in a personal capacity but I’m a manager within a welfare rights service and have been in this area of work for 34 years across multiple roles in both the voluntary and statutory sector and in varied geographical locations both rural and urban, I obviously can’t give one to one advice but where relevant I can give people information from that personal and professional experience which might inform their options. So, the exact opposite of your presumptions!

    You literally started a thread with a specific question. You don’t appear to have noticed but far from being a troll or unsupportive I am actually the person who answered your question. Interesting to read from @chiarieds that the advice given to you previously from Scope was also misinterpreted and ignored.

    You say you have nothing to gain here and yet you have everything to gain. You currently get no PIP and people are trying to help you do that. If you do the same things repeatedly you tend to get the same outcomes. I have given you clear reasons why I think you would benefit from doing things differently. That starts with getting advice and then maybe recognising where others have knowledge and experience that you do not. I applaud anyone who acts for themselves and people are generally far more capable than advisers sometimes give them credit for but your research and approach has led you to nil entitlement and there’s no reason to suppose that continuing as you are and doing as you have will produce a different result further down the line. 

    I did ask you to give some examples of how you linked the functional consequences of your conditions to the PIP activities but you chose to ignore that and make accusations. That suggests to me too that little further engagement with you is likely to be fruitful but I tried. Had you provided examples I could commence further. 

    You are absolutely welcome to disregard my suggestions and indeed to ignore me as a poster but no-one is trolling you here so maybe take a breath; read from the top and start again. You’re being helped here and if and when you do seek independent advice it may come as something of a surprise if that advice mirrors much if what’s already been said on this thread. 

    I think you need to decide whether you want some “support” or some help with getting PIP. They’re not mutually exclusive but neither do they have to be the same. 
This discussion has been closed.