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New PIP claim refused, old claim pending 2nd FfT Tribunal

louangel311louangel311 Member Posts: 39 Courageous
edited June 2020 in PIP, DLA and AA
Hi guys, REALLY need your advice! This is quite complex, so I will bullet point for ease of reading : )

- I applied for PIP in Jan 2018.The claim is all related to mental health, I cannot leave my home unless with my mum, and that's only for appointments. I live in a "bubble", cannot engage with people apart from via email/text/online. I see nobody but my Mum.

- Refused - I scored 2 points re help mixing with people & 4 points on Mobility - needs prompting to go on a journey. Not enough points to qualify for PIP.
- Applied for MR - refused
- FtT on 2 May 2019 - they spoke to me like i was something they'd stepped in - they agreed with DWP - appeal refused.
- I requested their Statement of Reasons - contradictions all the way through - and no reason was given as to why they didn't consider higher mobility descriptors
- Leave to appeal granted to the UT on errors of law - I was successful - I now have a newly constituted FtT panel set for a telephone hearing on 23rd June 2020

- I applied again for PIP on 6.1.2020 (although the DWP insist it was 26.11.19!)
- my health has deteriorated since my claim in 2018 - I have been moved from the UC LCW group to the LCWRA  group (I appreciate it's a totally different benefit) & had started therapy with Birmingham Healthy minds & then..........we went into lockdown - The therapy was a two pronged approach -  phone calls and visits from a support worker to try to get me out of the house and they had to stop.

- I had my PIP telephone assessment on 18 May 2020 (due to Covid 19). I had previously cancelled TWO f2f appointments as I couldn't travel there & they refused a home visit.
- I received their decision this morning - 0 points for anything :( 

- I have asked for a copy of the assessor's report & will submit an MR.

This is where I really need your advice. I was a solicitor prior to becoming ill. So........I can throw every piece of case law at them that they've discounted or ignored. BUT..........I feel that because I'm intelligent, can write well & can still use the skills I trained for 20 years ago..........I get penalised & they don't take my illness seriously. So........do I do this or not?

The UT's decision regarding my first  PIP claim is completely scathing of not only the DWP's stance, but also the first FtT's decision. As this was a totally separate claim - can I submit any of the judge's findings in my current MR? 

Do you feel that if you are a claimant that will fight them all the way and then reapply, this goes against you?

I hope all of this has made sense and really would appreciate your thoughts.
Louise 


Replies

  • katho31katho31 Posts: 694 Member
    Hi guys, REALLY need your advice! This is quite complex, so I will bullet point for ease of reading : )

    - I applied for PIP in Jan 2018.The claim is all related to mental health, I cannot leave my home unless with my mum, and that's only for appointments. I live in a "bubble", cannot engage with people apart from via email/text/online. I see nobody but my Mum.

    - Refused - I scored 2 points re help mixing with people & 4 points on Mobility - needs prompting to go on a journey. Not enough points to qualify for PIP.
    - Applied for MR - refused
    - FtT on 2 May 2019 - they spoke to me like i was something they'd stepped in - they agreed with DWP - appeal refused.
    - I requested their Statement of Reasons - contradictions all the way through - and no reason was given as to why they didn't consider higher mobility descriptors
    - Leave to appeal granted to the UT on errors of law - I was successful - I now have a newly constituted FtT panel set for a telephone hearing on 23rd June 2020

    - I applied again for PIP on 6.1.2020 (although the DWP insist it was 26.11.19!)
    - my health has deteriorated since my claim in 2018 - I have been moved from the UC LCW group to the LCWRA  group (I appreciate it's a totally different benefit) & had started therapy with Birmingham Healthy minds & then..........we went into lockdown - The therapy was a two pronged approach -  phone calls and visits from a support worker to try to get me out of the house and they had to stop.

    - I had my PIP telephone assessment on 18 May 2020 (due to Covid 19). I had previously cancelled TWO f2f appointments as I couldn't travel there & they refused a home visit.
    - I received their decision this morning - 0 points for anything :( 

    - I have asked for a copy of the assessor's report & will submit an MR.

    This is where I really need your advice. I was a solicitor prior to becoming ill. So........I can throw every piece of case law at them that they've discounted or ignored. BUT..........I feel that because I'm intelligent, can write well & can still use the skills I trained for 20 years ago..........I get penalised & they don't take my illness seriously. So........do I do this or not?

    The UT's decision regarding my first  PIP claim is completely scathing of not only the DWP's stance, but also the first FtT's decision. As this was a totally separate claim - can I submit any of the judge's findings in my current MR? 

    Do you feel that if you are a claimant that will fight them all the way and then reapply, this goes against you?

    I hope all of this has made sense and really would appreciate your thoughts.
    Louise 


    hi, and welcome. Wow your post is very similar to my situation, different reasons for pip application but yes, you made complete sense. i too consider myself fairly intelligent, i have often thought of this as a reason of things going against myself? not sure but im just as frustrated. someone will hopefully respond shortly to your post. take care and stay safe.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,980 Disability Gamechanger
    edited June 2020
    Not complex at all from my perspective.

    Okay, hard as it may be, put aside your legal training for a second. Your first claim - the subject of your appeal - is now time-limited to the day before you made your second claim. I presume you understand that? Your appeal is now only about January 18 to January 20. 

    You won at UT on an error of law. That’s no indication of the likely merits of a future PIP  appeal which will be decided on evidence and facts adduced on the balance of probabilities. If the SoS supported your UT appeal then you presumably only have had a short form decision which will carry little weight with a new FTT . If you have a long form decision bear in mind that a new tribunal can choose to disregard anywhere it offers guidance on the correct approach. 

    Mental ill health is acknowledged as being ill served by the PIP process and requires a real focus on bringing your case to life via medical and anecdotal evidence so it may well be that an approach based on case law is detrimental to your claims. Case law is of course there to be used but only to bolster a case in most instances rather than being the centre of it. 

    There’s an old saying that no-one knows less about housing law than landlords and no-one knows less about employment law than employers. Unless social security was your specialist area you need to distance yourself from an overly legalistic approach and go back to basics. Which points? Why? What’s your specific supporting evidence? What are the gaps? Play devils advocate. Pick apart your own case. 

    If you can’t do that then you need advice and representation from someone who can. Your local welfare rights service, independent advice centre or law centre. 

    PIP don’t really care who you are or what you did. At the end if the day it’s only about the evidence. Tribunals however will always take the hump at someone telling them how to do their job or citing case law as though it should bind them.

    Apologies if this comes over as a bit strong. I’m on your corner but you need to take a step back and let someone else take the reins so to speak.
  • louangel311louangel311 Member Posts: 39 Courageous
    Hi Mike and thank you for your detailed response!

    And I haven't taken offence - I needed someone who is not involved in this case to give a clear, impartial view :) 

    Yes, I do appreciate that the first claim will only run up until January 2018.

    Can you please explain what is meant by a "short form" and "long form" decision?

    I have taken on board your views and yes, I can totally understand that I need to take the "legal" hat off and put back on the claimant's hat. And no, Social Security law wasn't my specialism, it was Trusts and Probate which really has no bearing in this case at all does it, lol?! :D 

    Thank you, really appreciated.

    Louise 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,980 Disability Gamechanger
    edited June 2020
    The last two instances where I tried to persuade posters a change of approach was needed appeared to cause some offence so thank you for that. 

    Okay so if you appeal to UT the SoS gets to make a response. If the SoS agrees on one of your errors of law then you’re normally given the option to accept a short form decision in your favour i.e. a decision where the UT judge barely writes a side and just says that both sides agreed there was an error of law so the matter is being returned to a new FTT, usually without further comment.

    Even if the SoS concedes there is an error you can still opt for a long form decision i.e. one where the UT judge has to cover every point raised over multiple sides. The outcome can still go either way - just cos the SoS agrees with your argument it doesn’t mean a UT judge has to. 

    If there’s no agreement between the two sides then the UT judge does what they’re paid for and produces a long form decision. 


  • louangel311louangel311 Member Posts: 39 Courageous
    I will always take on board constructive criticism, and appreciate my legal head can get me carried away!

    The decision is a long form decision - it was 6 pages long. The SOS did concede there was an error - the FtT failed to explain why they had given the points under the descriptor concerning undertaking a journey, and not higher points which would have meant that I would have received PIP under mobility.

    My second question (sorry!). As my current PIP claim has been refused and I intend to submit an MR - is it inappropriate to mention the FfT decision and/or UT decision in my former PIP claim?

    I appreciate that they are totally different claims but...........my mental health has deteriorated rapidly since the FtT on 2 May 2019 - I was given 4 points under "prompting to undertake a journey" (the main point on appeal to the UT) and now.........12 months later, with proof of input from Mental Health Services - I have been given 0 points?

    Or is it not relevant as the FtT was on the 2.5.19 and is not within the previous 3 months of my new claim?

    Louise x
  • louangel311louangel311 Member Posts: 39 Courageous
    And........when I discussed throwing case law at them in my first post - I didn't mean a Tribunal panel, I meant the DWP in my MR - should I do this or not?  :)
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,980 Disability Gamechanger
    edited June 2020
    Interesting. Normally if the SoS concedes you only get a long-form decision if the UT judge has some points to make to a new FTT. It all looks impressive but it’s open to a new FTT to ignore the UT guidance completely. Some do. Some don’t. Most get distracted by other issues along the way. All I’m saying really is don’t go into your new tribunal with an expectation that the UT decision will steer their conduct. 

    It’s absolutely fine to mention the FTT and UT decisions at MR as well as mentioning case law but generally speaking you’re dealing with staff who wouldn’t know what a UT decision looked like so it’s unlikely to influence their decision. Nevertheless it can be useful with one eye on the appeal where you can say “look, I even to;d then thus and they just ignored it”. With a 16% success rate you might want to temper the effort you put into an MR. Your call though really. 

    On claims and MRs I routinely submit recent case law confirming it’s possible to challenge PIP award length without disturbing the amount of existing awards. At MR this, allied to a submission asking on what medical evidence DWP based a short award (there almost always isn’t any. They just pluck a date out of the air in most cases), produces either the correct award length or nothing. However, take that to appeal and such is DWPs level of reliance on template subs that they’ll ignore the case law and infer that the appellant is risking their whole award. My last tribunal on that issue took under 5 minutes to win. 
  • louangel311louangel311 Member Posts: 39 Courageous
    Mike, I really, really appreciate your input. I'm floundering here as to what I should and shouldn't include in the MR - I don't want anything included that could be to my detriment.
    As I said in my first post, because I'm intelligent and can write well,  I feel adverse inferences are drawn from this. But what the DWP don't seem to grasp - I'm in my own home when submitting evidence with nobody around me - going out and people are the issues I have with my mental health.
    The points that the UT judge made in his decision, were that there was absolutely no reason that the first FtT gave for me not scoring higher points for mobility. This was what the SOS conceded.
    They awarded me 4 points under "needs prompting to avoid overwhelming psychological distress on leaving my home" - so they conceded I was in a state on having to leave my home - but then gave no explanation as to why I wouldn't need continued help and Another with me, to continue the journey.
     The expression the FtT used in their judgment was "looking at the evidence in the round" - so I guess they meant looking at the evidence as a whole? And yet, their decision contradicted their findings that I can't leave home without Another without overwhelming psychological distress and rarely leave my home. 
    The UT judge stated that the first FtT should have taken account of the fact I have to have my medication delivered by Pharmacy2U as I can't leave my home to collect it.
    The UT judge also advised the new FtT should find the judgment in AA v SSWP useful in regards to mobility activity 1, although the whole new FtT will be deciding on my entitlement to both elements of PIP afresh.

    L xxxxx

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,980 Disability Gamechanger
    With a 16% success rate there’s little you can include to your detriment provided you aren’t excessive on any front. A little caselaw is fine. A little extra detail per activity and so on. Less is more. Narrow it down to key issues and get it focused rather than running to pages. 

    I love “looking at the evidence in the round”. It translates as “we’re going with the HCP report but we haven’t looked at anything in detail”. 
  • louangel311louangel311 Member Posts: 39 Courageous
    Thanks Mike!
    I had the HCP assessment report yesterday and.........oh dear!
    At one point she has stated "cannot plan the route of a journey" but then has later stated in “justification for the descriptor”  that I can plan and follow the route of a journey unaided to an acceptable standard on the majority of days  :open_mouth:
    I've stated that  the total contradiction of the assessor in relation to such an important aspect of my claim, throws the whole assessment into disrepute and that nothing that the assessor has recorded can be given any credibility.
    Any idea if a decision has ever won at MR in these circumstances?
    Louise x


  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,980 Disability Gamechanger
    Best advice at this stage is to not focus on the HCP report. Identify a couple of things which make it look obviously stupid - your strongest arguments if you like - then move onto the strength of your own case. Dismantling a HCP report is easy but it won’t get you PIP. 

    Yes, MRs are won for a variety of reasons including some magnificent buffoonery from HCPs but again.. 16% success rate. A time who tells you they have the magic ingredients for an MR is fibbing. 
  • louangel311louangel311 Member Posts: 39 Courageous
    Thank you. I read your comments in other threads about MR and focusing on what I can and can't do in "the real world" and that has been the basis of my MR. All of your help is really appreciated.
    L xxxx
  • louangel311louangel311 Member Posts: 39 Courageous
    Mike, can I ask you one more question please and then I promise I will stop bugging you!

    I had a UC WCA on 18 Feb 2020 (10 days before I should have had a face to face for PIP but had to cancel as I couldn't get there) and was changed from LCW to LCWRA - the substantial risk to my mental health should I be deemed capable of any type of work (I know this as I have a copy of the Assessor's report).

    I KNOW they are two completely separate benefits with different criteria for qualificiation ...............but is it worth pointing this out in my MR? The UC Assessor's report shows a totally different picture of an hour and a half face to face assessment vs a 38 minute phone assessment for PIP.

    Thank you x
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,980 Disability Gamechanger
    No need to apologise. See the other recent thread I contributed to and spot the difference.

    In essence, yes, different benefits but some common ground so include but help them by identifying the obvious contradictions. 

    The irony here is that DWP used to use the ESA report for PIP and vice verse and would get picked apart by reps and tribunals. The argument being that they were totally different benefits. Then the moment we started including them DWP started using the totally different benefits argument and find themselves regularly beaten up on that too. The truth is somewhere between. It’s useful of obvious contradictions are highlighted. Just watch out for other areas where the WCA could be turned around to argue against PIP points. As long as you’re okaying devils advocate with yourself you’ll be fine.
  • louangel311louangel311 Member Posts: 39 Courageous
    Thanks Mike, as always, thorough and really informative and as always, really appreciated!

    L x
  • louangel311louangel311 Member Posts: 39 Courageous
    Hi Mike, I have another question (no surprise there then!).

    This is relating to my first claim for PIP (5.1.18 to 26.11.2019 - the end date is when I made my new claim).

    In the Upper Tribunal's decision, it states that the new FtT which I have on 23 June, will be informed of the outcome of my new claim (26.11.2019 up until the present day) - where I didn't get PIP and was awarded 0 points for anything  :'(

    In hindsight, I feel it was futile having applied for PIP again - they were never going to give it me whilst this first claim is still to be decided on 23 June. I feel that the reason they haven't awarded me PIP on this second claim is to try to sway the Tribunal's decision against me in relation to the first claim. Just my thoughts.

    Is there any way I can voice this during my Tribunal hearing on 23rd? Should I send in the decision in the second claim to the Tribunal panel voicing my concerns or ............would that just look as if I am trying to sway the Tribunal's decision in my favour and being tactical like the DWP?

    Many thanks, Louise x
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,980 Disability Gamechanger
    Take a neutral perspective. 

    The new FtT have to be informed of the outcome of your new claim because although they're covering a closed period their decision could, at a later stage, inform the outcome of any 2nd appeal against the 2nd claim. They're looking out for perversity if you like e.g. if they awarded you enhanced rate of both but subsequently found you'd got zilch on your new claim then there would obviously be some reconciliation to be done/questions to be asked and the likelihood of a DWP challenge to their decision would grow. 

    So, nothing especially unusual there. 

    As regards the futility of a new claim, I don't necessarily agree. 

    There are circumstances in which I would say pursue just the one claim to appeal and others where a new claim is always worth thinking about. 

    As an example, I had a case where a dual sensory claimant got zilch on the back of a claim pack with which neither I nor colleagues had involvement. There it was always going to be worth doing an appeal and a new claim because the new claim was always going to contain loads of detail missed from the original and was always going to get something rather than nothing at all. It was worth it as the second claim got enhanced and then enhanced and standard by the time we got to appeal. Linked it to the first appeal; got them heard together and the first appeal had great difficulty evading a decision which read enhanced and standard. 

    Had I looked at the original claim done by whoever and thought it was excellent I would not have entertained a second claim. Sometimes they're excellent. Sometimes they're really not. Most often it's the ones where you suggest to people doing it themselves how they ought to have approached it and they say "but I did all that". You can pretty much guarantee that they didn't. I'm not saying that in any cynical way. It's just one of the hard truths. There's sometimes a world of difference between what a claimant thinks is a brilliant claim pack and an actual brilliant claim pack.

    It can, of course, work both ways. 

    In your case you presumably did both claim packs so the problem (forgive me putting it as bluntly as this) may be that, although things may have changed, you were still the person doing the claim pack; likely approached the writing in the same way; probably approached the gathering of evidence in a similar manner etc. It's that old adage (I'm sure there's got to be a nicer way of putting this...) that if you do the same things then why would you expect a different outcome. 

    Now of course for all I know you took a completely different approach to each claim. In my defence that is pretty rare but I'll grovel in advance just in case. 

    What I think I can say is that there's no way they denied the second claim to sway the tribunals view on the first claim. There's every possibility the decision maker on the second claim had no clue you currently have a live appeal on a different claim. Even if they had known, it's just as common that they make an award so I wouldn't read too much into it. 

    Sticking with that thought, I would put to one side the idea that DWP are "tactical" in these sorts of circumstances. They wouldn't know a tactic from a tictac. To them you are literally just one of thousands of cases with a history; some evidence and a chronology of events. 

    There is nothing to stop you voicing such a concern ahead of or during your telephone hearing but I wouldn't. Even if it were true I wouldn't but I especially wouldn't because my experience tells me its not true. To you this is very personal and so every action by DWP or indeed HMCTS feels very personal. To them, it's just a process. They made the decision they did on your second claim based on the evidence as they see it. Nothing more nor less no matter how hopelessly incorrect you might feel they are. 

    Your focus would be better aimed at looking through each activity you think you score points on and asking yourself what anecdote or story you have about that activity to support your case. If you have a couple of anecdotes per activity you will be fine. 

    The only thing I would consider in a case like this would be getting the 2nd claim to the appeal stage and delaying the 1st appeal so the 2 can be linked and heard together for the sake of consistency. At this stage it may be easier and less stressful to just go ahead and get the 1st claim decided. 
  • louangel311louangel311 Member Posts: 39 Courageous
    Thank you........as always!

    One of my favourite sayings is - "if you do what you've always done, you'll get the result you've always got"!!!  :disappointed:

    I've taken on board what you've said and when I go through the Tribunal pack, will think of instances where I tried to go out on my own and failed and tried to engage with other people and how badly it impacted on me.

    Roll on next Tuesday, I can't wait to get this Tribunal hearing out of the way!

    Louise x
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,980 Disability Gamechanger
    In terms of engagement think relationships and long conversations rather than speaking to a bloke at the till.  
  • louangel311louangel311 Member Posts: 39 Courageous
    Thank you, I will.

    The only person I really speak to is my Mum, see her once a week, maybe less often. 

    I do have friends but we tend to communicate via text as I get so anxious using the phone.

    My "outlet" to the outside world is the internet and social media.

    L x
  • cat_hugcat_hug Member Posts: 50 Courageous
    Louise, thank you so much for sharing your situation.

    Mike, thank YOU so much for your fabulous replies, which I know have helped answer some questions for my own journey through the Pip appeal mire.

    Louise, what you say about your past experience as a solicitor and inte,ligence, resonates with me too.

    In hindsight, I think I totally shot myself in the foot with my FTT hearing by preparing my appeal 'too well'.

    The irony for me however, was that immediately prior to losing my DLA and being denied PIP daily living (after a lifetime DLA award of middle care/low mobility since 1999 to 2019), I had been moved out of support group from ESA and into WRAG.

    I had had my ESA MR rejected, but then when I appealed to take my case to tribunal, the DWP lapsed my appeal and found in my favour; thus reinstating my ESA and SDP as I was placed back in support group.

    That appeal (ESA) was lapsed and found in my favour, Feb 2019. 
    Yet my pip application for daily living was rejected, not even two weeks later.

    They had used the more detailed HCP report from my ESA, to reject my Pip claim. Despite the fact they had overturned the decision and found in my favour (under article 35 of the ESA regs).

    When I pointed out this obvious contradiction in my Pip MR, I was told it was not relevent as they are two different benefits with different ways of assessing entitlement.

    I was awarded 12 points for pip mobility under the descriptor of needing another person to help plan and carry out a journey.

    At my FTT, they took no consideration of the social interaction difficulties I have, stating that this was covered under the mobility ruling and reflected in the fact I scored 12 points for mobility.

    My Mum passed away four years ago and on her deathbed, she made my Dad promise her that he wouldnt allow me to 'retreat into myself and become a hermit'.

    She knew how difficult I find it to interact with people socially. Firstly, its embarrassing to learn that people have often mistaken me as being drunk, or drugs, when they first meet me, owing to narcolepsy/cataplexy.
    Secondly, over the last few years, I have had two younger sisters die suddenly and unexpectedly. One from a rare genetic adrenal tumour, the other due to suicide.

    Shortly after my brain aneurysm and first stroke, the love of my life dropped dead just after id gotten out of hospital. He'd been working away and it wasnt until the police were at my door telling me he had suffered a fatal cardiac arrest, that I knew.

    The last straw was my Mum getting terminsl cancer and for 9 weeks, watching her die in front of my eyes.
    I suppose all of these things chip away at you gradually.

    Likr you, telephone calls terrify me. I have to psyche myself up to make a phone call. Even to report a simple repair that I need on my home.

    If my own phone rings, it fills me with dread. (Ive figured it out that it stems from the association of being told of a death of a loved one)

    Even family gatherings or Dad asking if he can call in for a cuppa, make me feel really anxious. If anyone knocks on my door whom I dont expect, I try pretend im not in, because its easier than dealing with people.

    I know it sounds silly and I cant give ryhme or reason as to why. Except that Im aware its been an insidious process that just sort of 'snuck up out of nowhere'.

    My daughter lives abroad and son is away at university and has been for the past 4 years. (Daughter has lived abroad for 10 years)

    Prior to the lockdown, when they both returned home to be lockdowned here, rather than alone, I could honestly go days on end withoit speaking to another person.

    Id msg my girl via whattsapp and my son, being a lad, would msg if he needed anything.

    Im afraid of social interaction far more than I fear the risks of making a journey alone. (which is ironic, as I was attacked earlier this year and I was not out alone!)

    I totally understand your frustration at knowing when the law is not being correctly applied. This is especially true, rhen its somebody who really ought to know better and is tasked to DO better (like a FTT judge).

    In hindsight, I regret menyioning caselaw in my appeal as I know darn well it didn't win me brownie points ( except an additional 2 on the cooking descriptor) haha. 

    When I had my pre-tribunal interview with welfare rights unit, to go through my appeal, she told me she wished all her cases were like mine. That I'd done her job for her.

    There was very little added to my case from WRU as I'd covered all the bases as it were.

    I was actually advised not to expect any further consideration on the cooking descriptor for which id been awarded 2 points for 'able to use a microwave'.

    I had argued that nuking a pot noodle was not 'preparing a simple meal from scratch using fresh ingredients'.

    Id been advised not to labour this point and that i had little chance of getting that changed. 

    That my strongest chance of getting the extra points needed, was in the social interaction descriptor. (which I also agreed , buy wasnt willing to concede the cooking, as ive had numurous accidents in the kitchen as a result of my health).

    Guess Im digressing, but my point is, you never really can tell how its going to go, or even if the law is going to be correctly applied.

    All you can do though, as Mike advised, is play devil's advocate with yourself. Pick apart your own arguments.

    When you know, without a shadow of doubt that the law has been incorrectly applied, or evidence misconstrued, etc, then my advice there is to do everytbing within your power to correct that injustice.

    To use the systems in place that are meant to safeguard your rights, to put right any wrongs, you have suffered as a result.

    Yes, it does feel very personal when you read an assessor's report that states an opinion as though it were fact...and that fact puts you at a disadvantage.

    The hard thing is remembering that that behind the offices trudging through your paperwork, is another person. A human being, with all the added extras that make up the humsn condition.

    That goes for tribunal judges too. They are simply people, with their own faults, frailities, egos, whatever.

    All we can hope for, is to show them a snapshot into our life and the difficulties we encounter that other people without disabilities dont face. 
    Its not easy and we dont always succeed.

    Personally, I just go on my gut (if you will) and the knowledge that I know when something aint right.

    And when its not right, you owe it to yourself to do whatever you can to change that. 

    Guess Im trying to say, trust your instincts and try not second guess yourself too much.

    At the same time,  consider others advice and alternatives as a way of remedying a problem.

    Apologies for extrrme lack of brevity here. Thank you once again for taking the tjme to explain so well, your own situation.

    Mike, thank you too for your valuable insights in response to the points raised here.

    Keep fighting Louise.

    Cat xx


  • louangel311louangel311 Member Posts: 39 Courageous
    Bless you Cat, thank you so much for sharing all of that - it sounds like you've gone through an horrendous time  :'(

    I've been very tempted to just jack the whole thing in, I HATE that it seems to have taken over my whole life and thought process.

    But.......I trained to be a lawyer as I DETEST injustice in any way, shape or form.

    I know from all the guidance I've received on here, for the Tribunal hearing I need to take the lawyer's hat off and focus on me, as a person and as a claimant and how my illness affects me.

    Thank you so much for your support, it really means a lot!
    L x
  • cat_hugcat_hug Member Posts: 50 Courageous
    You are amazing! Please don't throw it to the wind, when you've come so far. 

    Nil sine illegitimi carborundum ;-)

    Another favourite quote of mine is:

    'Unless someone like you, cares a whole awful lot.
    Nothing will ever change.
    No it will not!

    (Dr Theodore Seuss)

    We have to do the right thing for us and for justice itself.

    Big hug.
    Cat xx
  • adamskisadamskis Member Posts: 35 Courageous
    I am mortified, but not surprised by your story.

    we hear so much about mental health being as important as physical health, in all media, and government, until it comes to benefits!!
    then it’s all about holding benefits back, and “scrounging”!

    I found myself unable to work due to my illness, part of which is mental...chronic Fatigue...and that has been ignored in all documentation, or simply noted and not elaborated on.
    It is time to REALLY acknowledge mental illness, not pay it lip service.
    The OP should be entitled to benefits, the benefit entitlement criteria needs addressing, not forcing the claimant to jump through burning hoops, on stilts, that are different lengths, and on fire!

    I hope you “win”, but claiming PIP should not feel this way!
  • louangel311louangel311 Member Posts: 39 Courageous
    Thank you Adam. Bless you. 

    I sent in my MR for my second PIP claim with a supporting letter from my Mum (nearly 78, bless her) and she did write about how she has to help me but then went on to say about it being mental health year and even the Royal family are highlighting it  :D I know whichever decision maker reads it won't be impressed, but she wanted to have her say!

    I will update you all once I have the outcome but I'm really not holding out much hope.

    Thank you for your support.

    L x
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,980 Disability Gamechanger
    @cat_hug that is one of the most incredible posts I have ever read on here. Stopped me in my tracks and yet despite your life experiences so well balanced too. 

    Thank you both for your kind words too.
  • cat_hugcat_hug Member Posts: 50 Courageous
    @mikehughescq Oh bless you Mike, thank you so much for YOUR kind words.

    Honestly, your posts/replies are incredibly insightful and informative.

    Thank you so much for taking the time and patience, to reply in such a thoughtful and considered way. Truly does help, not just at a pragmatic level, but on a kind of intrinsic level too really (if that makes sense?)

    Just...thank you. Xx
  • louangel311louangel311 Member Posts: 39 Courageous
    So, my telephone Tribunal is looming next Tues and I've got a couple more questions (sorry!).

    In previous Tribunals, I've always been asked if I want to say anything at the end and.......I never know what to say :( What have other people done?

    The second one is quite personal but hey, I need the advice so I need to give the full picture.

    The DWP and the last Tribunal panel both quoted "takes low dose medication and is under the care of her GP".
    The low dose medication is due to me being a recovering addict/alcoholic. Yes, I've been sober 23 years, but my GP is AMAZING and knows I have the capacity to abuse any form of prescription medication so won't prescribe anything like Benzodiazapenes due to my history. My medical records show, he tried to increase the anti depressant I'm on and I couldn't tolerate it.

    I've been on other antidepressants and anti anxiety meds - the first stopped working at all and the second, I was taking too many and taken off them.

    All of this I've explained in my claim and appeal and it seems to fall on deaf ears :( How do I get the point across that my GP really does know what he's doing in treating me in recovery?

    The DWP and Tribunal panel seem to think that unless I'm under a psychiatrist (I was under the mental health team 6 years ago) I can't possibly be as ill as I say I am.

    Any ideas?

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,980 Disability Gamechanger
    With my reps hat on (well, peaked cap) I usually have a small, focused written sub in advance and when invited to open simply reiterate what rates I’m going for and refer back to the sub. It just makes it clear that I’m focused; trust them to get on with it and don’t need to hear the sound of my own voice. I then sit back and let the tribunal do their worst with few interventions from me. I’m too busy making notes on..  the stuff i need to come back and fix at the end.

    I do a lot of work on prepping appellants. One of the best bits of advice is to never cut in or talk across the panel. Even if it kills you. POs do it and it makes them look very bad. Anything you have an issue with or need to re-do or think they misunderstood... Make a note and come back at the end. Hard to do without a rep but if you have a rep then that’s what they’re there for. I try to limit myself to 5 minutes or 3 points at most. It’s not always possible but I’m experienced enough to know that if things are going badly wrong then the last 5 minutes or arguing with idiots isn’t going to fix it. Only a UT can do that. 

    So, if you think everything has been covered then just say so and shut up. If you don’t... then say so but keep it focused. Explain that you have some stuff requiring clarification; how many points; number them and give a focused summary. Don’t be afraid to go back on anything controversial if you have another angle on it. 

    Some nice stuff in your second point. Rightsnet thread on updated PIP guidance re: drawing inferences from the level of pain meds. It’s a nice way into the argument that levels of any meds in isolation tell you little. Context is all. See https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/15066.

    Nice ESA decision on drawing inferences from an absence of treatment. Different benefit but again it’s a way into discussing the general principle. See https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/welfare-rights/caselaw/item/whether-absence-of-treatment-is-an-adequate-basis-from-which-to-infer-exist

    Be blunt if you have to. Explicitly spell out that previous appeals have failed to appreciate that management by your GP is not illustrative of low level needs and that you’re running out of ways to spell it out etc. I presume you’ve a letter from your GP to this effect? If not, you do it. Tribunals appreciate candid appellants far more than ones they have to drag into out of.



  • AwesomelorenzoAwesomelorenzo Member Posts: 108 Connected
    PIP is so hard to get. My uncle couldn't get it and he is so bad. I didn't even qualify for anything.
  • chiariedschiarieds Member Posts: 7,968 Disability Gamechanger
    edited June 2020
    Hi @louangel311 - I have followed your posts, as I do several, in order to learn more. Whilst I only ever got to a Mandatory Reconsideration level, rather than a tribunal, I hope it's OK for me to respond.
    I'm a physio, tho I qualified as such a long time ago. When I had my first PIP assessment it was with a nurse that appeared to not like physios (it happens), & she said, 'I know all about physios, I hear the cries of pain from their patients'.....the assessment room was next door to a physio department. When I started to say, 'No, it shouldn't be like that', she interrupted saying she was only joking. Hmmm....well that wasn't a good start. Presuming that a nurse of 20+ years would understand, I later said to explain some of my physical problems, that I had ulnar collateral damage, also damage to my right flexor pollicis longus, etc...... & I saw a glazed look in her eyes. I asked if she would like it explained more simply, which she did.
    My point is, I had to take my 'physio hat' off then, as it wasn't helping, altho I'd thought it would. Perhaps as Mike has been at pains to say, you just need to be the claimant that describes the problems you face.
    I was asked about my medication, & reiterated what I'd said in my initial claim form that my previous GP had tried me with many that were either ineffective, or caused disabling side-effects. That I'd been on high dosages of Fentanyl patches, but had decided to slowly wean myself of them due to sedation, & other side-effects.
    My current GP offered to help me with PIP (I didn't have to ask), & wrote a supportive letter, saying that pain medication was largely ineffective in those with my disorder. He also detailed my mobility problems, as well as describing how my right arm & hand had been permanently damaged. In your case also a letter from your GP may help. Mine also said he would send me a copy of it, & if any corrections were needed he would apply them.
    Again, the point that either having treatment that hasn't worked, or that you're on a lower level of meds than might be expected is all relevant, if you can bring it all together describing why. With PIP it's all about your individual response, as people with the same condition are often likely to be affected differently. You need to tell your own individual story.
    I've done a lot of research into the problems that our family has had; one Dr. helped; others not, but I learnt I have to work with them to 'educate' them. So with PIP, no matter what you know, & however imperfect the system is, you have to go with it, explaining your functional disability.
    My best wishes for next week, & just to add I hadn't seen any specialists for over a decade as they were unable to help. I only had my testimony & that of my GP.

  • cat_hugcat_hug Member Posts: 50 Courageous
    Best of luck Louise with your hearing. Some great advice here. Xx
  • louangel311louangel311 Member Posts: 39 Courageous
    Thank you so much for all your advice.

    I can take notes, even if I'm a mess on the day - even a one word scribble on something will prompt me to come back to it, if I think it needs expanding on at the end.

    I think what frustrates me is this "one size fits all" attitude that seems to be prevalent :( My GP has worked SO hard to manage my medication to help me, but appreciates that me staying sober will always be the priority - if I lose that, I lose everything. Whilst my life may not be "normal", I still have a quality to it - my 3 rescue dogs are my world :)

    I was able to go to meetings for the first 16 years of my recovery and have lost count of the amount of funerals I attended in that time :( A 23 year old who was struggling with her final exams, was prescribed goodness knows what to help her through them by a "well meaning GP"......ending up drinking again and poured petrol over herself and set herself on fire. It took her 3 days to die :(  Just one tragic case of many.

    I won't cut across the panel, that would be rude ;) What always frightens me - will I be able to get my points across as I will be so anxious and if I'm too eloquent - will they think that I'm not really that unwell?

    L xxx
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,980 Disability Gamechanger
    Take your time. Breathe deep. Refuse to be rushed and...take bullet pointed notes to come back to at the end. 

    I shall be repping an appeal at roughly the same time you’re having yours so it’ll be interesting to compare perspectives. If it helps, I’m expecting HMCTS to be sufficiently incompetent to fail to bring me into the call and if I make it that far it’s going to be “interesting”. 

    It’s equally interesting that in here the focus is all on the evil of the HCP. I don’t see that that part of the process ever improves as long as it exists. Any kind of face time face with any kind of HCP produces subjectivity. What actually needs to change is at the DWP end. A culture which reads such reports and is either pressured to accept the plainly silly as the gospel truth or which refuses to view them with a critical eye. 
  • cat_hugcat_hug Member Posts: 50 Courageous
  • AlfAlf Member Posts: 4 Listener
    I have also just had my claim declined. They gave me 2 marks for having a overlay. They seem to ignore all evidence I gave. I'm going to appeal. My claim was for autism, dislexia and anxiety and I know I should of got marks on most the questions 
  • Adrian_ScopeAdrian_Scope Testing team Posts: 7,926

    Scope community team

    Best of luck today @louangel311, there's not much I can add to the brilliant advice you've already been given, but as others have said, take your time to reply. I really hope it goes well and please let us know how you get on. 

    @mikehughescq, good luck with the appeal you're repping, it'll be interesting to know whether they manage to bring you into the call.
    Senior Community Partner
    Scope

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  • chiariedschiarieds Member Posts: 7,968 Disability Gamechanger
    Congratulations. Pleased you had an understanding panel. :)
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Scope Posts: 10,652 Disability Gamechanger
    This is amazing news @louangel311!! Thank you so much for letting us know. Really please for you. :)
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  • katho31katho31 Posts: 694 Member
    hi chloe, theres a post from a male who wants help
  • adamskisadamskis Member Posts: 35 Courageous
    That is fantastic news.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,980 Disability Gamechanger
    Alf said:
    I have also just had my claim declined. They gave me 2 marks for having a overlay. They seem to ignore all evidence I gave. I'm going to appeal. My claim was for autism, dislexia and anxiety and I know I should of got marks on most the questions 
    Could I politely suggest you seek advice professional advice away from here  immediately. 

    The reason I suggest this is that word “overlay” is associated with the phrase “functional overlay”, which is not seen that often nowadays but can be interpreted as being somewhere on a spectrum between “having an emotional response to physical symptoms” all the way to “fraudulent claimant”. 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,980 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi all. I HAD to update you as you have been a lifeline to me..........had the Tribunal and........they've awarded me enhanced mobility from January 2018 to November last year when I made my new claim!  :D 

    Still not sure about Daily living component, that will be sent through via letter but the mobility is what I've always struggled with and to say I am delighted is an understatement. 

    The panel were LOVELY and so, so kind  :)

    Mike, especially, you are an absolute legend and I couldn't have got through this without your help! Hope your case went well today!

    L xxxxxxx
    Nice end to the day reading that. I take no credit at all despite your kind words. You asked some questions. I offered up some information. You only ever win because you were able to communicate your issues fully. Odd that you know about the mobility component but not daily living. You should have had the whole decision or nothing at all until it was posted out. Fingers crossed on DL then. 

    I’d be interested to know if you felt like you did change your approach in any way in light of any of my comments and whether you felt that was significant in any way. My instinct is always that “good” panels are really only good when appellants know what they’re doing. Bad panels only exist (with some exceptions obviously) when people go in thinking it’s one thing when it’s actually another. 

    There are people on this thread who have me on their ignore list as they chose to interpret my comments the exact opposite way to yourself. Of course I respect their right to ignore me (and I did actually suggest it was something they should do) but it might be interesting for them to see the other side of the coin. 

    Not expecting an answer today obviously as I’d expect you to be drained afterwards. Take a breath. 
  • louangel311louangel311 Member Posts: 39 Courageous
    Hi Mike

    "Drained" isn't the word, I feel like I've run a marathon!  :o  

    What was the difference? Mmmm. Ok, first off, the panel really were very nice - the judge and doctor sounded like someone's kind Grandpa and the lady disability assessor was just so pleasant  :)

    At the start of the call they told me I'd been given enhanced mobility on the papers alone but they needed more information on how I engage (or don't!) with other people.

    I think the fact that I knew I'd been granted the mobility really helped and also the fact that it was via phone and I hadn't had to leave my home to go through the whole process.

    But - I remembered what you said about being the claimant and telling them exactly how things affect me on a day to day basis. Yes, I did get really upset at various points, but I felt less vulnerable doing that, than I would have done face to face. 

    And - you know I've always felt that being intelligent has gone against me, as I perceived they didn't see my illness as genuine? I answered them as I would normally answer anybody, I used the language I would normally use, I didn't try to downplay that I'm educated as I would normally have done (I really, really hope that doesn't sound arrogant as it is no way meant to).

    I asked for advice on here, and I was given it - straight to the point. That's the way I am, so that's how I like to be answered. If people take offence at being told how it is, to the point and not dressing it up, then sadly there is little you can do about that.

    One last question (I hope!) - as this claim was until the 26 Nov 2019 (when I made my new claim) which as you know I have scored 0 points for anything on and have submitted an MR - do you think this Tribunal decision will have any bearing on my MR for the new claim?

    Many thanks as always

    L x
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,980 Disability Gamechanger
    Again, nice to read. The talking normally bit is key. Sounds like that helped a bit.

    I take a slightly different approach to appeals than others in that having prepped a case I will usually do a pre appeal home visit to do an hour on the case itself (you have to know what your own case is else you most likely don’t know when you’re screwing it up) and an hour on what happens on the day. Appellants will usually be so nervous on the day they’ll have forgotten most of it but that’s not the point. Many reps turn up 5 minutes before a start time (understandable given the pressure of work) whereas I insist we turn up 30 to 60 minutes beforehand. I can then go through a mini version of the last HV knowing that this time it will stick. The rest of the time I’ll have a chat, gossip and a laugh with the appellant who usually has no clue I’m actually working really hard to get them in the right state of mind to be able to give evidence calmly and coherently. 

    I always love it when the clerk asks my appellant “and has your rep explained what’s going to happen today?” and my client without fail says “No”. 

    You can actually use your tribunal decision to seek a supersession of the decision on your new claim regardless of where you’re up to on the MR. The argument is obviously “here is an award that goes all the way back to this date and forwards to the date before this one. What changed on the date of my new claim? Oh, nothing!”

    A few people on here have taken offence at getting answers from me they really didn’t like. Some of that is undoubtedly the nature of their ill health; some is equally my directness in print but some of it is being completely unused to someone saying “actually you don’t know what you’re doing and that’s why your claim failed and will continue to do so until you change your approach”. 

    There is also the thorny issue that you have to take at face value the fact that many people are convinced they will qualify for PIP and that entire systems are against them when unfortunately they’ve never had the good fortune to have an adviser tell them that they won’t and never will. I tend to leave those well alone.
  • louangel311louangel311 Member Posts: 39 Courageous
    Hi all, me again!

    So, when I received the Tribunal's decision notice, the panel had awarded me enhanced mobility until Jan 2022  :D

    However..........due to me having made a new claim in November 2019, the UT had advised it would be a closed period of award i.e. from 5 Jan 2018 to  26 November 2019.

    I have contacted the Tribunal about having the Decision Notice amended, goodness knows how long it will take  :(

    I haven't contacted the DWP at all........I'm keeping my head down as I know they have 28 days in which to question the decision which I'm praying they don't do!

    So my questions are - am I unlikely to receive any of the large amount of back pay they owe me until this Decision Notice is amended?

    And - should I send in the Decision Notice to the DWP as supporting evidence in my new claim or again, wait until I get the amended Decision Notice?

    Many thanks, Louise x
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,980 Disability Gamechanger
    Hello again :)

    In no particular order.

    Wait until the decision has been corrected before doing anything with it but bear in mind that a summary decision isn’t especially persuasive. It shows the award level and a breakdown but won’t explain why. It won’t do any harm though especially if allied to an suggestion from you that, guess what, nothing has changed.

    The request for correction likely will or ought to delay payment from the DWP. Theoretically no reason why they can’t pay arrears given that they won’t be affected by the end date but the decision isn’t valid until corrected so they’ll likeable sit tught until they’ve a corrected version. 
  • cat_hugcat_hug Member Posts: 50 Courageous
    Hi Louise (and Hi too Mike:-)
    I am so so thrilled to hear you have won your appeal! This gives me hope as I felt that your situation resonated very loudly with my own.

    We talked a while back about 'intelligence getting in the way of appeals etc'. Feeling pretty despondent today, as my request for leave to appeal to UT was rejected.

    Im aware that I can still write and ask the UT directly now, for leave to appeal and pray that they will read the case file and apply the law appropriately.

    The judge at my FTT definitely did not like me at all. She was clearly peeved about my case being 'well presented' and this was even mentioned in the statement of reasons (as a point against me). The annoying part is that I am one lousy point away from being awarded DL of Pip. I had 5 points before FTT and gained 2 at the tribunal. It really does feel like one step forward and 2 steps back.

    Anyway, I'm digressing. Just wanted to say a massive blooming WELL DONE YOU and congratulations on a sound result. Thank you so much tto yourself and Mike for sharing your situation and your knowledge.

    Believe me when I say, it really does help. 
    I'm sure there are many others who, like myself, are going through the emotional roller coaster that is the whole DWP process, especially where Pip appeals are concerned. Its heartening to know that there just might be light at the end of the tunnel, that isn't the light of an on-coming train!!

    Thank you and bless you.

    Big hug and best wishes

    Cat x 
  • louangel311louangel311 Member Posts: 39 Courageous
    Hello again :)

    In no particular order.

    Wait until the decision has been corrected before doing anything with it but bear in mind that a summary decision isn’t especially persuasive. It shows the award level and a breakdown but won’t explain why. It won’t do any harm though especially if allied to an suggestion from you that, guess what, nothing has changed.

    Sorry Mike, my brain is a bit fuzzy today..........do you mean that the Tribunal decision won't have much bearing on my new claim?
    Thank you x
  • louangel311louangel311 Member Posts: 39 Courageous
    cat_hug said:
    Hi Louise (and Hi too Mike:-)
    I am so so thrilled to hear you have won your appeal! This gives me hope as I felt that your situation resonated very loudly with my own.

    We talked a while back about 'intelligence getting in the way of appeals etc'. Feeling pretty despondent today, as my request for leave to appeal to UT was rejected.

    Im aware that I can still write and ask the UT directly now, for leave to appeal and pray that they will read the case file and apply the law appropriately.

    The judge at my FTT definitely did not like me at all. She was clearly peeved about my case being 'well presented' and this was even mentioned in the statement of reasons (as a point against me). The annoying part is that I am one lousy point away from being awarded DL of Pip. I had 5 points before FTT and gained 2 at the tribunal. It really does feel like one step forward and 2 steps back.

    Anyway, I'm digressing. Just wanted to say a massive blooming WELL DONE YOU and congratulations on a sound result. Thank you so much tto yourself and Mike for sharing your situation and your knowledge.

    Believe me when I say, it really does help. 
    I'm sure there are many others who, like myself, are going through the emotional roller coaster that is the whole DWP process, especially where Pip appeals are concerned. Its heartening to know that there just might be light at the end of the tunnel, that isn't the light of an on-coming train!!

    Thank you and bless you.

    Big hug and best wishes

    Cat x 
    Cat, I am so sorry to hear that your request to the UT has been rejected  :'(

    I'm not sure if I'm allowed to do this on this forum, but can I help you in any way?

    As for the case being "well presented" and adverse inferences being drawn from that, in both UC assessments and PIP assessments (written) and appeals, I have stated that just because I am unwell, doesn't mean I have a learning disability which precludes me being unable to write well and coherently. 

    In my UC assessment, the question was asked - "did you have help filling in this form?". My reply - "no. And that will never change. Having any assistance would mean either having to speak to somebody on the phone or have somebody in my home to help me or go to see an advisor, all situations that will elevate my anxiety to the highest levels. In my own home, on my own, I am the most relaxed and have the time to be able to complete paperwork when it suits and to leave it and come back to it when necessary".

    I have no idea if it made any difference to how I was perceived, but I tried to pre-empt any adverse inferences before they were made.
    L xxx
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,980 Disability Gamechanger
    Hello again :)

    In no particular order.

    Wait until the decision has been corrected before doing anything with it but bear in mind that a summary decision isn’t especially persuasive. It shows the award level and a breakdown but won’t explain why. It won’t do any harm though especially if allied to an suggestion from you that, guess what, nothing has changed.

    Sorry Mike, my brain is a bit fuzzy today..........do you mean that the Tribunal decision won't have much bearing on my new claim?
    Thank you x
    The decision you’re talking about is a summary. By itself it just tells DWP that an award was put in place for a past period. They could draw any inference they want from that including “she’s better now” etc. So, what really matters is your accompanying explanation of the fact that nothing has changed.
  • louangel311louangel311 Member Posts: 39 Courageous
    Morning all.

    So, I just thought I would post the final chapter in my PIP saga as people were so incredibly kind and supportive towards me.

    I have no idea why this has happened but the judge's decision to award me enhanced mobility until 2022 has overridden my second claim for PIP (the one on 26 November 2019) where the DWP scored me no points!  :D

    Maybe they didn't want to pee the Tribunal panel off? Maybe they knew I would fight them tooth and nail for however long it took? 

    Whatever the reason, my fight with them is over now until 2022 and I have received the substantial amount of back pay they owed me!  ;)

    Thank you again for all your help and.........never stop fighting for what you believe you should be entitled to!

    L xxxxxxx


  • katho31katho31 Posts: 694 Member
    Wow thats amazing so very pleased for you @louangel311 :)B) you did it!! well done and chill now, and get yourself something nice treat yourself, never stop fighting, yes and scopes helped me also and many more, best wishes xx
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,980 Disability Gamechanger
    Eek. Sorry to put a dampener on this but..  Wasn’t the re-heard FTT for a closed period? A tribunal can’t award beyond a closed period. DWP have paid up and not requested a SOR/ROP? If the tribunal had awarded to the end of the closed period and stated that they thought title extended beyond that then DWP could have legitimately superseded the decision on the later claim to make it match the earlier one (if they were so minded) but, the way you make it sound, they’ve done something they can’t do. 

    On the plus side, if they ever discover this, any overpayment will not be recoverable. They can ask but you can simply ignore them. 
  • louangel311louangel311 Member Posts: 39 Courageous
    Yep, the reheard FFT was from 5.1.2018 until I made my new claim on 26.11.19.

    No idea if DWP asked for a SOR or ROP?

    I've received the backpay for the period of the FFT above plus what they owe me from 26.11.19 up until the present date. Just the one payment, not separate. 

    I've also received a letter stating that the DWP have awarded me PIP from 26.11.19 up until 2022, which includes the date of the first payment and then four weekly going forward.

    Do you think in light of this they have superseded the decision on my second claim?

    And no, they will not be getting anything back if it is their error!!!!  :D:D

    L xxxxxxx
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger

    I've been a way from the forum for a few months and returned just a few days ago. I've been reading you thread for the past half hour or so and i have say wow! I just love this. This just proves to those fighting that you should never give up, ever! Well done and great news on the new claim decision changing too!

    @mikehughescq I realise there are some members that have taken a dislike to you, even though you've done your best to advise them. Although i must admit some of the comments i've read from others are a little harsh, to say the least. I've always said that it's very easy to misread what someone is trying to say through a text message and very often this is the case here.

    I've been advising on the community for a long time and i must admit, i've never come across anyone with as much knowledge as you. Scope needs people like yourself. If others don't appreciate your straight to the point honest advice, i most certainly do. The advice here is just incredible! I just wanted to personally thankyou for your contribution here on the community. I've learnt a lot from you over the years and i'll carry on learning. Just amazing, thanks once again!
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • chiariedschiarieds Member Posts: 7,968 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @louangel311 -  I think congratulations are in order....& don't give a penny back if the DWP have made an error!
    I once called Mike 'abrupt,' which he thankfully didn't take offense with, but that was when I was agreeing with him, & we both had a 'bit of a time with it' with a poster who was just so sure they were right, & wasn't listening to him. Mike later said I'd called him 'rude'.....just shows how comments can be 'misread!'
    Mike knows an awful lot, & gives his time here to help others, as does Poppy. Me, I have some medical understanding, & have just spent 7+ hours in a virtual conference today about the neurological, & other problems I have. This due to Covid-19; without this occurring, I could never have attended such a conference in the USA. 2 more days to go, but already I've seen info that might benefit this community, & will post links when they become available. Hopefully we're all here trying to help in our many, & varied ways. :)
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,980 Disability Gamechanger
    edited July 2020
    I’ve also just gone back and re-read. Post appeal you applied for the decision to be corrected. Are you saying that the decision wasn’t corrected or that it was? I’m not clear. Has a corrected version even been received?

    Asking because it occurs to me that if a corrected version hasn’t yet been received then some dimwit at DWP hasn’t paid attention and has wrongly paid up after the closed period.

    If the decision was corrected and limited to the correct closed period then DWP have also overpaid you. Goodness only knows what they were thinking of in either scenario.

    The only correct approach would have been for the FTT decision to award for a closed period and then DWP use that outcome to supersede the decision on your later claim. The judge may also have confused themselves here over some recent developments where having a closed period appeal means the 1st claim has ended by the time the appeal arrives. A total mess up either way. 

    In either instance they will try and recover but nothing can possibly be recoverable as this is official error all the way. There’s a specific way of tackling something like this and it’s fairly counter-intuitive so please seek further advice before you do anything should the matter ever raise itself. Whatever else you do, don’t throw away a sheet of the paperwork either. It could be a life saver further down the line, especially proof you asked for a correction. 

    Thank you @chiarieds and @poppy123456 for your kind words.

    [removed by moderator- personal comments towards another member] 
  • louangel311louangel311 Member Posts: 39 Courageous
    Hi Mike

    I contacted the Tribunal about having the decision notice corrected and never heard back from them!

    So I have no idea who has done what, and like you say, will be keeping every scrap of paper just in case they try to recover any money!  :D

    L xxxxxxx
  • katho31katho31 Posts: 694 Member
    edited July 2020
    [removed by moderator- personal comments towards another member] 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    edited July 2020
    [removed by moderator- personal comments towards another member] 
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • katho31katho31 Posts: 694 Member
    edited July 2020
    [removed by moderator- personal comments towards another member] 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Please be mindful of your tone. We are a friendly helpful community. If you don't like peoples comments then please use the ignore feature.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Scope Posts: 10,652 Disability Gamechanger
    edited July 2020
    I advise people look over the things to keep in mind thread when they are on the community. We're not pointing fingers, just wanting this to be a safe place for everyone.

    Thanks. :)
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  • katho31katho31 Posts: 694 Member
    edited July 2020
    [removed by moderator - please be respectful towards all users. You can review the house rules here and you can use the ignore function to not be alerted to posts from a particular user.]


  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    I have reported your comment. Please be mindful of your tone.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Scope Posts: 10,652 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @louangel311, just wanted to check in to see how you are. I hope the thread has meant you have been able to access all the advice you need.
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  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,980 Disability Gamechanger
    edited July 2020
    Hi Mike

    I contacted the Tribunal about having the decision notice corrected and never heard back from them!

    So I have no idea who has done what, and like you say, will be keeping every scrap of paper just in case they try to recover any money!  :D

    L xxxxxxx
    Okay, so it sounds like the DWP have acted on the incorrect tribunal decision not knowing a corrected version will eventually appear and not having read it properly in any event. It may get messy when/if a corrected decision is issued. A correction will always take longer at present as, in order for a judge to do a correction, the original bundle has to be retrieved and posted out to the home of the judge. The priority for the small number of clerks going into HMCTS offices is to run telephone hearings and get decisions out. Corrections etc. are way down the list. Shouldn’t be the case but it is. 

    Nevertheless there’s no doubt what DWP have done is official error so there’s no possibility of recovery (although they do always give it a go with all manner of insidious passive aggressive threats). 

    Thank you (again) @poppy123456 for coming to my defence as regards to the other matter. [removed by moderator- personal comments towards another member] 

    Apologies if my post detailed the thread slightly but hopefully we can ignore the other nonsense and stay on topic. Quite amused that anyone should get accused of a lack of empathy as though that were a bad thing when empathy is a very dangerous quality in any adviser. 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    @mikehughescq you're welcome, anytime! :)
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Scope Posts: 10,652 Disability Gamechanger
    edited July 2020
    This thread has been closed due to serving its purpose and personal comments towards other members. 

    I advise people look over the things to keep in mind thread when they are on the community. 

    You can review the house rules here and you can use the ignore function to not be alerted to posts from a particular user.

    Please respect each other.
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