What are the reasons for which you have been denied PIP?

BrettW

Username_removed said:

BrettW said:

Actually Mike as far as I'm aware it is not illegal for a UK citizen to record a telephone conversation either with or without permission. It may not be admissible in a court but the act of recording a conversation itself isn't illegal

You are spot on. Recording is not necessarily illegal. Playing it to a third party is. It’s an important distinction in law but less important here where the only reason to record it would be to present it to a third party. 

Yes you have to obtain permission from the other parties on the call before you share the recording publically or to a third party. 

OverlyAnxious

In my case it is the descriptors themselves that are the main problem.  I was actually awarded mainly on what I'd consider the weakest part of my case.  I just slip through cracks with the other areas.  I do accept there has to be a cut-off point otherwise everyone would be entitled but the lack of flexibility outside of the specific descriptors is difficult.  I know others in similar situations as well, there are probably thousands of us across the UK.

However, I could also see where the HCP was specifically trying to dispute my claims though.  With regards to food preparation for example, I have severe OCD around contamination and harm - essentially means I can't use any sharp knives or fresh foods and have to rely solely on pre-prepared items.  But because I can use a game controller it was deemed that I could use a veg peeler so no points awarded...

I also suffer with agoraphobia, vertigo, motion sickness and IBS that make getting out anywhere near impossible, I can't use any form of public transport, have to rely on my own car to go anywhere, need a specific type of car, plus one that I can rely on 100%...but because I can walk and don't need assistance to go out I don't meet the mobility descriptors.  Surely the mobility side of PIP was purely designed to help people that have to spend more on transport due to their health conditions!

I was mainly awarded for 'mixing with people' due to agoraphobia and social anxiety (possibly ASD but undiagnosed) and got a couple of points for food prep and nutrition as well.  Just looking at those points paints a very different picture of my life than the reality though.

BrettW

well as long as people are made to realise that as long as they only record it for their own personal use and records no legalities or site conditions will be breached. Its a much better situation than people being mistakenly led to the believe that recording the assessment in any situation is illegal

Cher_Alumni

Hi everyone!

I feel it’s necessary to interject at this point with a few reminders:

·       PIP is a contentious issue that understandably leads to heated exchanges as to the efficacy of the system.  While we accept this will happen, it is important threads do not descend into unconstructive arguments and personal attacks that are both offensive to individual members and deviate from the OP’s query.  As such, when it is becoming evident that points of view are irreconcilable, please move on to other discussions where productive dialogues can be had.  To read more about the principles underlying our community, visit the online guidelines. 

·       Presenting accurate information is vital to ensuring we protect our members from further disablement (that which results from not getting what they are entitled to because of improper messaging).  However, it goes without saying that tone is equally important to convey information in a manner that doesn’t make people feel further oppressed, misunderstood or demeaned.  Please bear this in mind when taking the time to construct posts.   

·       Lastly, when quoting members’ comments, please ensure you are doing this accurately to avoid misrepresentation.  Although in the heat of the moment it may appear that you are, it is always worth taking a step back to question whether your interpretation is accurate or whether emotions may be biasing your response. 

Although I think this has now been clarified, to reiterate in response to the question 'can you record a PIP assessment?' – the Citizens Advice webpage states:

• ask if you can make an audio recording of the assessment - you must do this 3 days before your assessment and ask your provider about the rules for using recording equipment 

Thank you everyone for your contributions and your shared passion around fighting for equality for disabled people. 

BrettW

The thing is Mike in this day and age its ridiculous that with modern technology that the system is still operating the way it is. 

Most businesses and organisations now routinely record telephone conversations and advise callers of this fact at the beginning of a call. There is absolutely no reason why the DWP themselves should not be employing this system at present. Modern technology makes it very easy to do these recordings and they could easily be forwarded to a claimant on request just like they do with the paper based report.

In the case of an MR or Tribunal the claimant could easily use timestamps for relevant sections of this recording so that they are not forced to listen through an entire assessment.

This would not involve any need for DWP to invest in any expensive technology whatsoever because all this can be done on an average PC which the department already uses.

The amount of problems employing this system would solve is immense and would actually result in the whole process not only being more efficient but also less costly.

(edited for spelling error)

BrettW

See Mike that is the biggest issue I have with the system as it currently is.

It is claimed that the majority of the time the DM goes with the recommendation of the assessment. As soon as a claim goes past the decision stage and into MR or Tribunal the assessment is on the whole disregarded if what you and others claim is correct, yet for the decision process it seems to be the main deciding factor in the majority of cases.

Tribunals seem to overturn a lot of these decisions made off the assessment, so to me it suggests that the assessments themselves are not reflecting accurately the reality of the claimants situation so why is the DWP still using them as the main factor in the decision process so often when theres a lot of data suggesting that they are not effective in a lot of cases and why have they not been revised to correct this problem?

happyfella

Username_removed said:

I’m going to politely ask you to withdraw your comments @PatchG. I’ve not said you can’t record. I’ve only commented on the likelihood of it being admitted or being pivotal. My posts on the subject remain on the thread and I’d appreciate it if you would not attribute things to me which I did not say. 

PatchG said:

I disagree with you. The case in the link is more than clear. The transcript of the recording was allowed. Anyone stating that recordings, or transcripts thereof, are not permitted by tribunal, is incorrect. 
My CAB advisor did tell me a transcript of mine would be best in case of lack of correct equipment for the panel members to play back a recording.  

Further, assessments CAN be recorded, and requested that assessors do so, 3days notice just has to be given.

People need to to know what can be done and what can be used, not be given incorrect information. 

The link is there for anyone to read and make up their own minds/discuss with whomever is directly helping with their own case.

The case link makes no link between the recording and the win. At no point does it or any other article say the case was won because the recording was admitted. It simply says the audio was admitted and the case was won. The case is well known in the welfare rights world and none of us have ever seen or read any evidence that the case was won because of the audio. I stand 100% behind my original assertion. 

I would strongly suggest you read previous posts very carefully before making any further assertions about “inaccurate” information.

Notice to record varies from provider to provider. I do wonder if your CAB adviser told you how much a transcript would cost and that if you obtained one that it’s weight would have been reduced as evidence precisely because it wasn’t done officially. 

Tribunals at present are mostly telephone based and run from panel members homes. The likelihood of them having the kit to hear audio or see video is close to nil. Even when tribunals were face to face I know of only 1 case in a decade where video surveillance was actually viewed and none where they managed to hear the audio. Same applies to all my colleagues. DWP don’t have the kit and nor on the whole do HMCTS. Most appellants don’t bother. Last stat I saw for ESA for example says that 0.66% of applicants ask to record. 

@happyfella the investigation by MPs you refer to has already been linked to on this thread. It took place in 2016 and reported in 2017. It produced the largest number of responses in parliamentary history and still did not conclude that most HCPs lie. 

They did suggest that recording all assessments would solve this which sounds great but was simplistic. 4 years later trials never really got off the ground because all parties have to consent and whilst lots of HCPs don’t want to it turned out that the bigger issue was that most claimants actually didn’t want to be recorded either. Especially true in the case of physical deformity, mental ill health, learning disability etc. 

happyfella said:

Lots of people are winning appeals because of lies on the reports and that is a fact. That is why people now get told to not only take someone in with them but also to record the assessment.

There are no statistics as to why people win appeals. DWP assert its because people present “new” evidence on the day but that is nonsense. Very few appeals at all focus on the HCP report. Their focus is on verbal evidence on the day and written submissions as the most persuasive. Decisions are overturned because tribunals find different facts to DWP decision makers. That is to do with the quality of all the evidence and not just a HCP report on which they generally spend very little time.

It is good advice to get representation but that has always been the case. However, you’ll be hard-pressed to find any representative who will suggest recording. That’s generally what claimants tell each other. Reps understand why claimants might want to do it but in terms of it winning a case it’s generally of negligible use. Even if it proves a HCP recorded the most outrageous inaccuracy that does not mean they deliberately lied and you still need the rest of your evidence to stack up in order to actually get PIP.

Not sure of your agenda here. I am talking 2020. Not sure why you find it hard to believe about assessor lying. i suggest that you do listen more to people's experiences and what they have gone through. I personally find some of your replies insulting to those that have gone through assessments where the assessors have lied. I have spoken to many people about this because of my experience including a news editor, CAB, and other organisations who are looking into this.

MarkM88

I have to agree with Mike. 

When I started to help my mum, we were first referred to the local authority welfare rights team and I thought this was to "general" that we refused their help and declined their offer of helping with the form. 

Me and my mum had started to put together our written submission and this time we accepted the help from a local sight loss charity and they wrote the most horrendous stuff that I had ever come across and wanted us to send every hospital letter, medical records, prescriptions, assessments that had been completed, etc. I disagreed. 

In the end we spent days writing the claim pack, specifically referring to detailed examples, and focusing highly on what we knew they needed to know. 

We included nothing, apart from a copy of her CVI (certificate of visual impairment). Yes, she had a face to face and the assessor who was a nurse and a really lovely person was kind, friendly and asked for clarification on a few things. Again when answering questions my mum specifically gave examples. 

First time claim, awarded first time (Standard care/Enhanced mobility), no MR or appeal needed, no evidence apart from the CVI and the report we requested before the decision was made was spot on!

happyfella

My advice to people before going for an assessment when the face to face assessments become available is, take someone in with you, and notify PIP that you want to record the assessment. This way, you can make sure that you receive a professional assessment. If you have already been through an assessment and you have found lies on the report, then do report it. First go to your MP as they do carry more weight, and they will have a direct route to have this reported. Also make a complaint yourself. If you are not able to make a complaint then go to an advisor.

In my case two investigations took place both in my favour. I was advised to go to the tribunal and I was also offered to have a new assessment. However, i was not in a great place to have another assessment, so against my Doctors orders and other people, i decided to call it a day. I was told the tribunal could take up to 12 months. About five months after the investigation my Doctor told me i need to fight it and he would support me. I said no. He then arranged for an organisation to call me who said i would win hands down at the tribunal and would get the money back dated. I told them i was not interested in having it back dated. They then said the quicker option would be to reapply. I did not want to go through with it, but after a couple of weeks i decided to go ahead. The process was very fast and i was surprised how fast it was. I had an assessment over the phone and the assessor even said to me that she was sorry about the experience i went through and it should not have happened. I did not even mention my previous experience.

The person who filled the forms in for me said this was the quickest she had experience of a claim going through. My claim was also backed up by my doctor who sent a strong worded letter.

So, if you have failed then do go to appeal and do get professional help on your side.

PatchG

BrettW said:

Actually Mike as far as I'm aware it is not illegal for a UK citizen to record a telephone conversation either with or without permission. It may not be admissible in a court but the act of recording a conversation itself isn't illegal

Correct.
As long as one party to a conversation is aware of being recorded, it's legal. 

What a recording is subsequently used for, that is what deems illegality or not, ie to use for criminal blackmail or to sell to the media etc.  Not the recording itself.

happyfella

@PatchG dont reply to mike, <moderator removed -personal attacks breach our online guidelines.  Please be mindful of your words.  Thank you - Cher>. If you want to record the conversation then just inform them at the beginning of the telephone coversation that you are recording it, and if you are going to a face to face assessment then give them notice that you are going to record the interview. If you need to appeal then the recording can be used. I wish you well

shella

Username_removed said:

@TEACUPTERRIER The question then breaks down into 
- what sort of aids?
- were they prescribed aids?

@shella it was easy enough to see which bit was your addition. The issue is solved if posts aren’t endlessly quoted and are just replied to instead.  

I’d appreciate it if you too would note that the terms of this site prohibit comment on posters rather than posts. Nothing in my posts “invalidates” those of others. However, the Work and Pensions committee report took evidence from the largest number of respondents in history. They still felt unable to conclude that HCPs lied. Are posters here seriously “invalidating” the evidence of all those thousands of claimants? 

A useful little thread on the futility and dangers of trying to prove a HCP lied. Also makes the useful point that many of the people who level the accusation have little idea how PIP works. Presumably professional reps who threaten to pull out if their client uses the L word are in the wrong and pointing out that you’re skirting dangerously close to an allegation of fraud that could land you with a bit of bother is also wrong! 

https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/132

I stand by what I have said. The information is out there for anyone to find and read. That is what I did. I do not care what reports you have read I go by what is actually happening in the real. I understand also how a commission report works. 
This is my experience a and of a lot of others.

TEACUPTERRIER

You can make a recording with their permission. The point of a recording isn't to play it in court. It's to make sure that the assessor gives you a fair hearing and doesn't write down what they want and disregard what you actually say. Nothing I said was taken down. My assessment contains actions I didn't do and things I never said, as well as several contradictions and I can prove it! It says I refused a physical exam, not true! Then gives the results of the physical exam that I supposedly refused, including that I performed certain motions physically impossible due to injury at the time! This is what needs to be addressed! 

Cher_Alumni

<thread closed pending moderator review>

Cher_Alumni

The decision has been made for this thread to be closed permanently due to repeated personal attacks, inaccurate information and a poor tone that goes against the supportive ethos underpinning our online community.  

Please be assured that any breaches of the community guidelines will result in disciplinary action, which may include a first warning, users being placed on moderation or lastly, banned.

To clarify any ambiguity surrounding the audio recording of PIP consultations, please read the following excerpt taken from the Government’s PIP assessment guide part 1.

1.6.57 The audio recording of face-to-face consultations is not currently part of the contractual specification for PIP assessments.
1.6.58 Claimants may use their own equipment to audio record their face-to-face consultation, should they wish to, subject to any reasonable conditions the DWP chooses to impose on such recordings. These reasonable conditions are:
·       the claimant must inform the AP in advance that they wish to audio record their consultation. This is to allow the AP to ensure that the HP scheduled to carry out the consultation is willing to be recorded. If the HP is unwilling to be audio recorded, an alternative appointment should be made with an HP who is willing
·       the claimant must be able to provide a complete and accurate copy of the audio recording to the HP at the end of the consultation. For this reason, certain devices that are capable of editing, real-time streaming or video recording the session are not approved. Non-approved devices include (but are not limited to) PCs, tablets, smart phones, MP3 players, smart watches, and devices that are not capable of providing a verifiable media copy that can be easily checked during the assessment. Acceptable formats for such recordings are restricted to CD and audio cassette only
·       the claimant must sign a consent form in which they agree to provide a copy of the audio recording and not use the audio recording for unlawful purposes
1.6.59 APs must publicise these conditions and ideally include them in communications sent to claimants before they attend a face-to-face consultation.
1.6.60 Video recording of consultations is not permitted. This is to ensure the safety and privacy of staff and other claimants.