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What are the reasons for which you have been denied PIP?

Ross_ScopeRoss_Scope Posts: 3,136

Scope community team

edited October 2020 in PIP, DLA and AA

What are the reasons for which you have been denied PIP?

Our Campaigns team would like to hear from you to support our We Won't Be Forgotten campaign. 


Please comment below with your stories from the last year – trying to keep your answer as short and snappy as possible. Answers will be shared anonymously on Scope’s social media channels to help promote our campaign. This is to support our current action to email your MP our Welfare Guide, and make sure MPs commit to our key changes to improve the welfare system.


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If you’d like to share more details about your experiences of the welfare system, and potentially become a storyteller, please take action.

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Replies

  • OverlyAnxiousOverlyAnxious Member Posts: 1,256 Disability Gamechanger
    Has a driving licence

    Didn't look anxious

    Arrived for assessment alone
  • Ross_ScopeRoss_Scope Posts: 3,136

    Scope community team

    Thanks for sharing @OverlyAnxious

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  • captainrickcaptainrick Member Posts: 4 Listener
    I had full flat for life as Addison’s disease is a life long condition especially when you do not have a pituitary gland in your brain, did my PIP assessment and they downgraded me careers allowance as I missed the mobility by 2 points. Even though I use a wheel chair have full time use of 2 specially made crutches and have spine surgery every 12 months. They said that because I could drive to the assessment (in a fully automatic) car, I did not qualify. I am not allowed to use buses or trains as I am 45 and my dr’s have aged my spine around 80 years old. Oh and by the way an ambulance driver did my assessment 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    I had full flat for life as Addison’s disease is a life long condition especially when you do not have a pituitary gland in your brain, did my PIP assessment and they downgraded me careers allowance as I missed the mobility by 2 points. Even though I use a wheel chair have full time use of 2 specially made crutches and have spine surgery every 12 months. They said that because I could drive to the assessment (in a fully automatic) car, I did not qualify. I am not allowed to use buses or trains as I am 45 and my dr’s have aged my spine around 80 years old. Oh and by the way an ambulance driver did my assessment 

    HI and welcome,

    Carers allowance isn't part of PIP, it's a completely different benefit. Someone can claim carers allowance for looking after you and you must be claiming the daily living part of PIP, not the mobility part.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • Welliboots93Welliboots93 Member Posts: 25 Connected
    Goes to university so must be able to get dressed 

    Didn't sound anxious 

    Was able to remember what is wrong with me 

    Doesnt have any diagnosis of learning difficulties (I was applying based on my mobility and anxiety) 

    Doesnt always takes meds so pain mustn't be bad (I need prompting to take my meds and I made that clear haha) 

  • Ross_ScopeRoss_Scope Posts: 3,136

    Scope community team

    Thanks again to those who have shared so far :) 
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  • 66Mustang66Mustang Member Posts: 4,638 Disability Gamechanger
    edited October 2020
    A bit off topic but I was told “you claimed to have difficulty moving around but were found to have adequate upper and lower limb function”.

    I never claimed to have difficulty moving around..? :/

    (I still got my PIP on the correct mental health grounds that I was applying on though after MR.)

    I think this is kind of relevant as it shows someone somewhere perhaps didn’t read or listen to something properly.

    PS came across this looking for reptile pictures but none in here :D
  • lizjessielizjessie Member Posts: 2 Listener
    The PIP assessors seam to put down the same comments for everyone .. whatever their disability, we don't all fit into the little boxes they base the questions on! :smile:

  • Ross_ScopeRoss_Scope Posts: 3,136

    Scope community team

    Thanks for your responses @66Mustang and @lizjessie :) 
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  • countrycreaturecountrycreature Member Posts: 12 Listener
    66Mustang said:
    A bit off topic but I was told “you claimed to have difficulty moving around but were found to have adequate upper and lower limb function”.

    my decision letter stated the exact same (though i do ahve mobility issues)
  • Ross_ScopeRoss_Scope Posts: 3,136

    Scope community team

    Thanks for your contribution @countrycreature :) 
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  • countrycreaturecountrycreature Member Posts: 12 Listener
    Has a driving licence

    Didn't look anxious

    Arrived for assessment alone
    did you appeal? how did you get round the driving part. It's a bit confusing. I have been rejected with being able to drive also given as one of the reasons but i dont understand how that can be an issue when plenty people in reciept of pip drive .... ?
  • HeathermcbHeathermcb Member Posts: 1 Connected
    I had eye contact
    I could walk into the room with a walking stick...(I was slowly hobbling in!)
    I could get up and sit down...(with the help of my walking stick and the arm of the chair)

    Based on the above,I could walk over 200mtrs repeatedly
    I could talk in sentences :open_mouth:
    I could focus on the questions being asked of me!What was I supposed to do focus on what was out the window?
    There was a lot more they wrote which was untrue as well.

    Unbelievable how they get away with writing these lies.


  • woodbinewoodbine Member Posts: 3,722 Disability Gamechanger
    I have to admit that when my change from DLA to PIP was done the assessment was both fair and reasonable and I ended up getting £40 per week more, thats not to say that when my review is done it will be all plain sailing it might it might not.
    However it should be noted that we read a lot on the internet about bad decisions and less about good ones and yet there are far more good than bad overall.
    PIP isn't perfect but too many people fail to realise that it is different than DLA.
    Just thought I'd throw a bit of balance into the mix.
    my advice is given freely and is correct to the best of my knowledge.
  • bishop1967bishop1967 Member Posts: 18 Listener
    I have kidney failure and attend hospital 3 times a week 4 hours a time  for dialysis I struggle to do day to day activity. They rejected my PIP and told me am fine on the days I don’t do dialysis 🤷‍♂️
  • PatchGPatchG Member Posts: 42 Connected
    Assessment by phone, assessor wrote different answers to the ones I gave, she also knew nothing about cluster headaches, decided as I don't have them for 4 to 5 months of the year that it over rides the minimum 7 months that I have them daily, plus hemicrania on top every single day.
    Basically she lied, when I asked for it to be looked at again they took away the small amount of money I had been awarded, out of pure spite imo, for challenging them. 
    And now I have cancer which will take me out they are probably high fiving each other for the extra stress and poverty they have caused me. They are pure evil. Thats why so many are put through this hell. 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,938 Disability Gamechanger
    Worth reiterating that the job of the HCP is not to repeat what you say but to make an independent assessment of all the evidence having heard what you say. Not the same thing and certainly not evidence of lying.
  • woodbinewoodbine Member Posts: 3,722 Disability Gamechanger
    edited December 2020
    @PatchG have you re-applied for pip under special rules? I really doubt that anyone at the DWP has been high fiving anyone.
    https://www.mariecurie.org.uk/help/support/benefits-entitlements/living-with-terminal-illness/personal-independence-payment
    my advice is given freely and is correct to the best of my knowledge.
  • PatchGPatchG Member Posts: 42 Connected
    Worth reiterating that the job of the HCP is not to repeat what you say but to make an independent assessment of all the evidence having heard what you say. Not the same thing and certainly not evidence of lying.
    She lied. Blatant outright lies. She didn't assess what I said, she omitted some altogether and put things I never said myself, yes, she made some things up. I have the recording...
  • PatchGPatchG Member Posts: 42 Connected
    woodbine said:
    @PatchG have you re-applied for pip under special rules? I really doubt that anyone at the DWP has been high fiving anyone.
    https://www.mariecurie.org.uk/help/support/benefits-entitlements/living-with-terminal-illness/personal-independence-payment
    Hi, not at this point. The tribunal by phone was yesterday, cab said to get that out of the way before dealing with anything else.
    I don't know time scale as I instructed oncologist to not tell me, I can't cope with knowing it. It's hard enough trying not to count down passing days, so I will get nothing basically 😢
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,938 Disability Gamechanger
    PatchG said:
    Worth reiterating that the job of the HCP is not to repeat what you say but to make an independent assessment of all the evidence having heard what you say. Not the same thing and certainly not evidence of lying.
    She lied. Blatant outright lies. She didn't assess what I said, she omitted some altogether and put things I never said myself, yes, she made some things up. I have the recording...
    I’m not saying the HCP didn’t lie. I’m saying that it’s not their job to write down everything you say. It’s their job to form an opinion and that will include writing down things did not say precisely because it’s their opinion. Having a recording will not help you because the people doing the MR and indeed an appeal tribunal will not have the means to listen to it. They’re not going to take your word on a written transcription because you could edit that as you wished. It’s useful for remembering what took place but no more than that. 

    Accusing them of lying will not help as it’s not something you can prove legally, You can prove they omitted, misrecorded or misinterpreted but you can’t get inside their heads and demonstrate their motivation.

    It’s been says many times on here that focus of your challenge needs to be the strength of your evidence rather than the weakness of theirs. Proving a HCP wrong will not get you PIP if your evidence is not itself sufficiently strong. 
  • KettlesKettles Member Posts: 20 Connected
    PatchG said:
    Worth reiterating that the job of the HCP is not to repeat what you say but to make an independent assessment of all the evidence having heard what you say. Not the same thing and certainly not evidence of lying.
    She lied. Blatant outright lies. She didn't assess what I said, she omitted some altogether and put things I never said myself, yes, she made some things up. I have the recording...
    I’m not saying the HCP didn’t lie. I’m saying that it’s not their job to write down everything you say. It’s their job to form an opinion and that will include writing down things did not say precisely because it’s their opinion. Having a recording will not help you because the people doing the MR and indeed an appeal tribunal will not have the means to listen to it. They’re not going to take your word on a written transcription because you could edit that as you wished. It’s useful for remembering what took place but no more than that. 

    Accusing them of lying will not help as it’s not something you can prove legally, You can prove they omitted, misrecorded or misinterpreted but you can’t get inside their heads and demonstrate their motivation.

    It’s been says many times on here that focus of your challenge needs to be the strength of your evidence rather than the weakness of theirs. Proving a HCP wrong will not get you PIP if your evidence is not itself sufficiently strong. 
    I have to agree with the poster above. My husband was convinced the HCP was lying, but on the bundle that came for the tribunal, and when I examined the file in full, there were some misrepresentations, such as Mr Kettles would be able to get in and out of the bath unaided. Now we don't have a bath, only a wet room, he was convinced the HCP was lying. But, it was her opinion based on what was presented to her. On reflection, it is true. 


  • KettlesKettles Member Posts: 20 Connected
    What i found helpful was to read the DWP guidance for assessors. Our face to face assessment was very chatty. The HCP chatted about an experience she had. This was used to assess my husband's cognitive ability. He is chatty and therefore, her opinion was that his cognitive function was intact. There were some inconsistencies within the report which were challenged with evidence that we took to appeal. The tribunal panel were very helpful as it was adjourned for a month. It gave us more time to redraft our evidence. We did win at tribunal stage. 
  • bishop1967bishop1967 Member Posts: 18 Listener
    PatchG said:
    Worth reiterating that the job of the HCP is not to repeat what you say but to make an independent assessment of all the evidence having heard what you say. Not the same thing and certainly not evidence of lying.
    She lied. Blatant outright lies. She didn't assess what I said, she omitted some altogether and put things I never said myself, yes, she made some things up. I have the recording...
    I’m not saying the HCP didn’t lie. I’m saying that it’s not their job to write down everything you say. It’s their job to form an opinion and that will include writing down things did not say precisely because it’s their opinion. Having a recording will not help you because the people doing the MR and indeed an appeal tribunal will not have the means to listen to it. They’re not going to take your word on a written transcription because you could edit that as you wished. It’s useful for remembering what took place but no more than that. 

    Accusing them of lying will not help as it’s not something you can prove legally, You can prove they omitted, misrecorded or misinterpreted but you can’t get inside their heads and demonstrate their motivation.

    It’s been says many times on here that focus of your challenge needs to be the strength of your evidence rather than the weakness of theirs. Proving a HCP wrong will not get you PIP if your evidence is not itself sufficiently strong. 

    PatchG said:
    Worth reiterating that the job of the HCP is not to repeat what you say but to make an independent assessment of all the evidence having heard what you say. Not the same thing and certainly not evidence of lying.
    She lied. Blatant outright lies. She didn't assess what I said, she omitted some altogether and put things I never said myself, yes, she made some things up. I have the recording...
    I’m not saying the HCP didn’t lie. I’m saying that it’s not their job to write down everything you say. It’s their job to form an opinion and that will include writing down things did not say precisely because it’s their opinion. Having a recording will not help you because the people doing the MR and indeed an appeal tribunal will not have the means to listen to it. They’re not going to take your word on a written transcription because you could edit that as you wished. It’s useful for remembering what took place but no more than that. 

    Accusing them of lying will not help as it’s not something you can prove legally, You can prove they omitted, misrecorded or misinterpreted but you can’t get inside their heads and demonstrate their motivation.

    It’s been says many times on here that focus of your challenge needs to be the strength of your evidence rather than the weakness of theirs. Proving a HCP wrong will not get you PIP if your evidence is not itself sufficiently strong. 

  • bishop1967bishop1967 Member Posts: 18 Listener
    If you have a recording then use it or tell them in writing you have it recorded trust me it works 
  • happyfellahappyfella Member Posts: 114 Courageous
    Last year my doctor told me to apply for PIP, I did'nt want the stress of it all, but i ended up applying. I went for the interview and was shocked with some of the things that she said. When i received the report it was like i was reading a report about someone else. I put in a automatic reconsideration request and got turned down. I then showed it my doctor and I made a complaint and my doctor complained.

    The report as mentioned was like i was reading about someone else. There was things on there that did not relate to me, and there were loads of lies on there. The report even contradicted it self in a lot of places and did not make sense. An investigation was launched, and then another investigation was launched. I received both letters about the investigation, with both of them saying sorry.

    One letter I received back said the assessor claimed she could not remember me and could not access the notes on my case. The investigation said they did not feel she was telling the truth when she claimed she could not find the notes. The second investigation said something similar. One investigation was an indepedent investigation. They told me that they had failed me and did not provide me with the service that they expect all assessors to provide.

    I got no points because of the report, but i did not have the energy to appeal after i received the investigation reports. I did not want to go through that again. However, my doctor told me in September that i need to reaply. I kept on saying no but he then arranged for someone to fill the forms in for me. The forms were sent in and my doctor also sent in a letter.

    I have gone from receiving no points to now the other day receiving a letter saying i had been awarded maximum on both, which will help a lot as my wife some years ago went from full time to part time to help look after me.

    What i learnt from my experience was, that you should never be too trusting. That is where i went wrong. If you are going to go for an interview then you should take someone with you, and you should also record the interview.

    The person who filled the forms in said they are trying to fight what is happening with PIP assessors. They were dealing with hundreds of appeals in the same area with the majority on the same assessor. They said this was not just a local problem it was a national problem and said they do not understand why so many assessors lie.

    They said to me that not all assessors are the same, but said like in anything you have some bad apples, and went on they did not understand why some assessors lie as they don't gain anything from lying. What they have said they would like to happen is for assessor to be checked by sending in investigators to test the assors at random
  • Ross_ScopeRoss_Scope Posts: 3,136

    Scope community team

    I'm glad you got a positive outcome in the end @happyfella but blimey it seems as though you went through quite the ordeal to get there.
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  • happyfellahappyfella Member Posts: 114 Courageous
    I'm glad you got a positive outcome in the end @happyfella but blimey it seems as though you went through quite the ordeal to get there.

    It was very stressful. I did not want to apply for it in the first place, but my GP told me to apply for it, and then my doctors that i need on a regular basis kept on bringing it up at each appointment and i kept on saying no for well over two years. Then as mentioned  said ok, i will apply and i wished i didnt because it was so stressful. This time around it was less stressful because my doctor arranged for the forms to be done for me, and i had a telephone consultation. If i was to have a face to face consultation, i would be taking a person with me and a tape recorder or video it. I would advise anyone going for a face to face to do that. My problem was, i was too trusting. And as mentioned, i do not understand what some assessors get out of lying on reports. It turned out, the person who did my report was a paramedic, i found that out through the investigation. I took a lot of convincing for me to reaply. At first they wanted me to go to appeal and said i would win hands down, but said due to covid it would be a long delay and would be quicker for me to reaply. I have an amazing team around me, so i am very grateful to them.

    The assessor i had over the phone was very nice. And she also appologized to me for the experience i previously went through and told me not every assessor was like that, but said as everything in life there are some bad apples. she told me on the phone that i should have received an award the first time around. She told me on the phone that this time you will receive an award because they had all the supporting evidence from my GP and other doctors.

    I do think though that for people who need help you do have to jump through hoops. For example, I could really do with a blue badge, because i have problems walking and it causes me pain. But, because i scored only four points on the question that automatically gives you a blue badge, but on the other question under mobility i got ten points, i have to go down a long road for a blue badge. My council want so many different forms sorting out and letters and evidence that it has put me off from applying.

    It is the same with council tax help. To receive a small amount of council benefit they want to come to the house, and then there are lots of other things they want, and for around £16 a month its not really worth it for me to go through the stress of it all. My main priority is to try and find out how much it would cost to have a toilet put under my stairs. to have a toilet downstairs would make a huge difference to my life. Not sure how long it would take for that to happen. I spoke to some people and said that the council i am under, i will have as much chance of getting funding as winning the lottery, so i need to save up a few years just to make my life more easier
  • PatchGPatchG Member Posts: 42 Connected
    @happyfella
    Blue Badge can be done online now, much easier, no stress for that at least 🌻
  • TumiltyTumilty Member Posts: 36 Connected
    handled the 5 min telephone assessment well whereas in reality i was panicking lots. How can they tell in 5 mins over the phone 
  • berry123berry123 Member Posts: 256 Courageous
    I had the same experience applied in 2016 and got turned down I never appealed due to my mother inlaw being terminally I'll but have reapplied again fingers crossed just waiting assessment appintment
  • Ross_ScopeRoss_Scope Posts: 3,136

    Scope community team

    All the best for the application @berry123 :) 
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  • berry123berry123 Member Posts: 256 Courageous
    I have severe asthma and I only scored 6 points when I had 2 of my sister presents but I didn't appeal due to family member being I'll I have reapplied again my asthma nurse and gp said why am not getting pip
  • shellashella Member Posts: 31 Courageous
    It matter what you actually write on the PIP form. The question are not the answers you think they also write the same questions in different ways. The examples are there to distract you. They mean nothing to the question it relates to. Do not take the words in BOLD as an example. Stick to the question only.(They do not want to know about how you find it difficult to shop) 
    Read the question over and over again. before answering. I had to appeal every time. The notes from the appeal showed me that I was not really answering the questions the way they wanted. So I went over the form i filled in and found what I was doing wrong. I am not saying that next time I have it sussed just that I can answer the way it is written.
    All the above reasons I had them all.
    I challenged most of them Example can walk 50m with a walking aid, but was not awarded any points
    you get points if you have to walk with an aid. I then said why have you stated that I can walk 50m with a stick when you could clearly see that I was struggling to walk and breath as I could not answer your questions for a good 15 minutes. I received full points on that one in the tribunal..
  • TEACUPTERRIERTEACUPTERRIER Member Posts: 44 Connected
    I was told I didn't look anxious enough, that I had no  stiffness in my joints, even though I have fibromyalgia and not arthritis which the assessor thought was the same thing. The reasons given were just outright lies. They claimed I carried a walking stick around and never used it, even though i have written proof that on the day I had a torn patella in my knee and was on my stick for a few months with it. They just lied about the whole experience it was horrible. 
  • lisathomas50lisathomas50 Member Posts: 3,809 Disability Gamechanger
    @TEACUPTERRIER I think in my own opinion pip is a harder benefit to claim and they ask the same questions in a different way  its not they lie its how you reply to the question that they have asked in a different way 


  • TEACUPTERRIERTEACUPTERRIER Member Posts: 44 Connected
    edited January 30
    No there were definitely lies in my assessment. I said because of my knee injury I couldn't do a full physical exam that involves bending my knee. She refused to do one at all said it wasn't necessary even though I said I could do the rest of it. On my assessment letter it included the results of a physical exam and stated I had full mobility in my knees and was bending my knees and joints to show her I had no joint problems. It also said I stated I only suffer from depression 3 days a year and that I was laughing and joking all the way through. Those are lies. None of that happened at my assessment! 
  • happyfellahappyfella Member Posts: 114 Courageous
    I would love to know why some of the assessors are not investigated. I also do not understand why assessors lie on their reports, i just don;t get it. On my first one they put so many different lies on the form it was like I was reading about someone else. I do think a lot of people are struggling because they are missing out through the lies that are told by assessors. I suffer from depression, and I was asked by my assessor that if you are so depressed why have you not tried killing yourself. My advice for anyone filling the forms in, is to speak to your local C.A.B to find out if there is a place who can fill it in for you.
  • TEACUPTERRIERTEACUPTERRIER Member Posts: 44 Connected
    I just hope that the tribunal can see through the nonsense from the assessment. I have plenty of medical documentation to back up my claim. I will get a hearing in February. 
  • TEACUPTERRIERTEACUPTERRIER Member Posts: 44 Connected
    In the end its their word against yours. I did send in my proof of injury to the tribunal and highlighted the inconsistency in their report. Its the only one I could prove was a lie. I would advise anyone going to the assessment to record the session. I wish i had. And yes the questions are different in the assessment and they change them until they get an answer they like. I was asked about my walking aids unti I was asked if I could walk at all without help or if I was completely immobile without help. And that was how she determined I didn't need a walking aid and could walk fine! 
  • TEACUPTERRIERTEACUPTERRIER Member Posts: 44 Connected
    Anyway thanks for listening everyone. I've had so much good advice on this forum hopefully I can win my tribunal! But the pip system needs to change that much is obvious. 
  • berry123berry123 Member Posts: 256 Courageous
    @TEACUPTERRIER did you have face to assessment or telephone assessment.  Hope your tribunal result be in your side.
  • TEACUPTERRIERTEACUPTERRIER Member Posts: 44 Connected
    It was face to face. Had to travel quite a way and was so ill after with anxiety I had migraine for days after. The woman was not a doctor or nurse. She didn't know what fibromyalgia was and assessed me as if I had arthritis which I don't. I also have drug sensitivity problems so I'm not able to take strong painkillers or anti inflammatory meds, so she decided I wasn't in pain. She came across as really friendly but my experience of having my whole assessment twisted and lied on has made me so anxious about the tribunal! When I was assessed for esa it was so professional and the man doing it was a doctor. He didn't act super friendly like she did but was very thorough and fair, and also had a good understanding of my medical problems. He even moved me from the work related to the support group. It really made a difference having a qualified assessor. I asked what my pip assessors qualification was and was told she had worked in health care for a few years. They wouldn't say in whatg capacity! 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,938 Disability Gamechanger
    edited January 30
    You cannot legally record the assessment and even of you did neither DWP nor a tribunal will have the means to play it. Very few assessors lie. They are there to form an opinion and make a recommendation. They’ve no responsibility to record everything you say. 
  • berry123berry123 Member Posts: 256 Courageous
    @TEACUPTERRIER best of luck on your tribunal  keep us uodated
  • TEACUPTERRIERTEACUPTERRIER Member Posts: 44 Connected
    It's my right to record the session with their permission. I wish i had because my answers were different to what was written. Why are there so many people jumping to defend these liars? Many disabled people have had my experience it's not a few
  • MarkN88MarkN88 Member Posts: 763 Pioneering
    You need to remember as well, they don't need to be a nurse or a doctor, they need to be a healthcare professional which can include paramedics and physiotherapists, they are not carrying out a medical examination and therefore don't need to know about individual conditions, they are there to carry out a disability assessment as it is a disability benefit, and this is carried out in relation to the PIP descriptors. 
  • happyfellahappyfella Member Posts: 114 Courageous
    You cannot legally record the assessment and even of you did neither DWP nor a tribunal will have the means to play it. Very few assessors lie. They are there to form an opinion and make a recommendation. They’ve no responsibility to record everything you say. 

    I disagree with some of what you have said. You can record the assessment. However, you have to give them notice that you want to record the interview. Not sure why you have to give them notice. Also, I spoke to an MP about my case last year and she told me that she had received more than 100 complaints about the assessment and the lies told. She explained that a lot of other MPs are receiving the same complaints. She wanted to tackle the issue but she lost her seat. I had my forms filled in for me as my Doctor arranged for this to happen, and they were telling me the amount of complaints they were dealing with and how different sections of their organisation around the country were receiving the same type of complaints about lies on the assessment. So my question is, why do some assessor lie. I don't understand what they gain from telling lies on the form. As far as i understand, the assessor who lied on my application last year,and who was investigated no longer works for them. The people in charge of the assessment decided to do an investigation themselves and they asked for ourside organisation to do another investigation as they wanted me to see it was taken seriously. I have I think posted what they said on this page. It seems to be a common problem about lies being told, but as mentioned I do not understand what assessors would have to gain from doing this.
  • MarkN88MarkN88 Member Posts: 763 Pioneering
    I think one reason for giving notice if you want to record is not all assessors agree and are not obligated to do therefore you would need to be reallocated if your assessor was one of the ones to refuse. 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,938 Disability Gamechanger
    You cannot record the assessment unless you give the notice abd have the equipment to make two simultaneous recordings. The notice is required because HCPs do not have to consent to being recorded and can choose to not take part so, unless you’re happy being cancelled, notice will always be needed to get a replacement. Utterly pointless though as I says because neither DWP nor HMCTS will access them. It also, wrongly, focuses people on the HCP assessment instead of the quality of the claim pack and your supporting evidence which are the actual key to entitlement. Proving a HCP wrong basically does that and little else. It is not the passport to getting PIP as evidence is assessed in the round.

    There is no doubt a significant minority of reports contain factual inaccuracies as related by the Work and Pensions Committee but the accusation of lying is ill-informed. You can’t legally show that they lied unless you can get in their heads. You can only show they recorded something obviously factually inaccurate. The two are not the same and it’s an important distinction as people who accuse HCPs of lying tend to get nowhere the majority of the time and end up distracted from the task at hand. It’s also an approach based on the mistaken belief that the role of the HCP is simply to repeat what you say. 

    MPs getting complaints is evidence of nothing. Many people who get refused PIP and complain will often simply not qualify for PIP.That’s a reality which gets overlooked. The number of complaints in isolation tells you nothing. You also need to factor in that MPs themselves know **** all about PIP and what they do know will often be in firmed solely by what their often very young employees tell them about what’s coming through the door. 
  • PatchGPatchG Member Posts: 42 Connected
    You cannot record the assessment unless you give the notice abd have the equipment to make two simultaneous recordings. The notice is required because HCPs do not have to consent to being recorded and can choose to not take part so, unless you’re happy being cancelled, notice will always be needed to get a replacement. Utterly pointless though as I says because neither DWP nor HMCTS will access them. It also, wrongly, focuses people on the HCP assessment instead of the quality of the claim pack and your supporting evidence which are the actual key to entitlement. Proving a HCP wrong basically does that and little else. It is not the passport to getting PIP as evidence is assessed in the round.

    There is no doubt a significant minority of reports contain factual inaccuracies as related by the Work and Pensions Committee but the accusation of lying is ill-informed. You can’t legally show that they lied unless you can get in their heads. You can only show they recorded something obviously factually inaccurate. The two are not the same and it’s an important distinction as people who accuse HCPs of lying tend to get nowhere the majority of the time and end up distracted from the task at hand. It’s also an approach based on the mistaken belief that the role of the HCP is simply to repeat what you say. 

    MPs getting complaints is evidence of nothing. Many people who get refused PIP and complain will often simply not qualify for PIP.That’s a reality which gets overlooked. The number of complaints in isolation tells you nothing. You also need to factor in that MPs themselves know **** all about PIP and what they do know will often be in firmed solely by what their often very young employees tell them about what’s coming through the door. 
    They do lie.
    There are masses of cases of it, my own included.
    Blatant, flat out lies. Yes, I recorded mine. 

    You repeatedly stick up for those people like a politician.
    Why?
    Time and time again there is evidence of their lying - not their  'interpretation' and not that we who apply didn't do the forms well enough (mine were done by CAB, they know what they're doing!).

    You come across as condescending toward those of us who are put through the PIP mill.
    Frankly, and I can only speak for myself, your posts make me feel degraded the exact same way as when  speaking to those who are paid to put us through sheer PIP hell. 

  • TEACUPTERRIERTEACUPTERRIER Member Posts: 44 Connected
    Well said patchG
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,938 Disability Gamechanger
    The thing I stick up for is objectivity. I am wholly on the side of claimants but not to the extent of turning issues with DWP or people acting on their behalf into an opportunity for abuse based on demonstrable inaccuracies. 

    I do not welcome the assumption within the post that you are part of an “us” that I am not part of. I am also a disability benefit claimant. A post accusing someone of being condescending after making that assumption looks exactly like condescension. 

    Personal comment breaches the terms of the site. Kindly comment on the post not the poster. I’ve no desire to enter into any tit for tat nonsense. You will be aware that one significant poster on this site has stepped back recently following abuse for essentially “being accurate”. Another has stepped back for the same reasons but had second thoughts so far. I’m quite happy to add myself to that list. A lot of the experienced posters with real knowledge are on a very short fuse with this site; it’s members and administration at present. 

    The confusion people have is that when they say one thing and a HCP records another people interpret that as a “lie”. However, the HCP is not there to repeat what you say verbatim or to unquestioningly take what you say as gospel. They are there to assess i.e. form their own view and make a recommendation. 

    Do they get it wrong? Yes, of course they do. Badly? Yes of course. Are they evil or liars? In the overwhelming majority of cases absolutely not. The single most authoritative comment on this came from the Work and Pensions Committee in 2017. Feel free to read either the summary or the whole thing. You will note that they don’t say it’s the experience of the majority. They accept it is a significant minority. You’ll also note that at no point do they accuse HCPs of lying. 

    Additional to the above it’s worth repeating that legally you cannot prove someone is a liar as to do that you would need to be in their head in order to understand their motivation. You can simply show that they got things factually wrong. 
  • shellashella Member Posts: 31 Courageous
    You cannot record the assessment unless you give the notice abd have the equipment to make two simultaneous recordings. The notice is required because HCPs do not have to consent to being recorded and can choose to not take part so, unless you’re happy being cancelled, notice will always be needed to get a replacement. Utterly pointless though as I says because neither DWP nor HMCTS will access them. It also, wrongly, focuses people on the HCP assessment instead of the quality of the claim pack and your supporting evidence which are the actual key to entitlement. Proving a HCP wrong basically does that and little else. It is not the passport to getting PIP as evidence is assessed in the round.

    There is no doubt a significant minority of reports contain factual inaccuracies as related by the Work and Pensions Committee but the accusation of lying is ill-informed. You can’t legally show that they lied unless you can get in their heads. You can only show they recorded something obviously factually inaccurate. The two are not the same and it’s an important distinction as people who accuse HCPs of lying tend to get nowhere the majority of the time and end up distracted from the task at hand. It’s also an approach based on the mistaken belief that the role of the HCP is simply to repeat what you say. 

    MPs getting complaints is evidence of nothing. Many people who get refused PIP and complain will often simply not qualify for PIP.That’s a reality which gets overlooked. The number of complaints in isolation tells you nothing. You also need to factor in that MPs themselves know **** all about PIP and what they do know will often be in firmed solely by what their often very young employees tell them about what’s coming through the door. 
    I don't know who you are but you are speaking untruths and if you had gone through this disgusting PIP experience you would truly understand what people are saying.. They do out right lie, what happened in the assessment is not what is written on the reasons why letter.
    You are not allowed to record. They tell you that when you ask. If the assessment's were recorded there would be no mistaking the amounts of lies hat have been told.
    I have experienced everything that people have stated. How dare you invalidate what each person has gone through its bad enough you have to say things you would not say to anyone let alone yourself the thing you have to go through every single day then to see that they out right lied on what was said Then for them not to ask questions and assume. How can they say a person does not look in pain.......everyone handles things differently. 
  • shellashella Member Posts: 31 Courageous
    shella said:
    You cannot record the assessment unless you give the notice abd have the equipment to make two simultaneous recordings. The notice is required because HCPs do not have to consent to being recorded and can choose to not take part so, unless you’re happy being cancelled, notice will always be needed to get a replacement. Utterly pointless though as I says because neither DWP nor HMCTS will access them. It also, wrongly, focuses people on the HCP assessment instead of the quality of the claim pack and your supporting evidence which are the actual key to entitlement. Proving a HCP wrong basically does that and little else. It is not the passport to getting PIP as evidence is assessed in the round.

    There is no doubt a significant minority of reports contain factual inaccuracies as related by the Work and Pensions Committee but the accusation of lying is ill-informed. You can’t legally show that they lied unless you can get in their heads. You can only show they recorded something obviously factually inaccurate. The two are not the same and it’s an important distinction as people who accuse HCPs of lying tend to get nowhere the majority of the time and end up distracted from the task at hand. It’s also an approach based on the mistaken belief that the role of the HCP is simply to repeat what you say. 

    MPs getting complaints is evidence of nothing. Many people who get refused PIP and complain will often simply not qualify for PIP.That’s a reality which gets overlooked. The number of complaints in isolation tells you nothing. You also need to factor in that MPs themselves know **** all about PIP and what they do know will often be in firmed solely by what their often very young employees tell them about what’s coming through the door. 
    I don't know who you are but you are speaking untruths and if you had gone through this disgusting PIP experience you would truly understand what people are saying.. They do out right lie, what happened in the assessment is not what is written on the reasons why letter.
    You are not allowed to record. They tell you that when you ask. If the assessment's were recorded there would be no mistaking the amounts of lies hat have been told.
    I have experienced everything that people have stated. How dare you invalidate what each person has gone through its bad enough you have to say things you would not say to anyone let alone yourself the thing you have to go through every single day then to see that they out right lied on what was said Then for them not to ask questions and assume. How can they say a person does not look in pain.......everyone handles things differently. 
    I do not know what happened here lol my reply is the second grey oblong 
  • shellashella Member Posts: 31 Courageous
    MarkN88 said:
    You need to remember as well, they don't need to be a nurse or a doctor, they need to be a healthcare professional which can include paramedics and physiotherapists, they are not carrying out a medical examination and therefore don't need to know about individual conditions, they are there to carry out a disability assessment as it is a disability benefit, and this is carried out in relation to the PIP descriptors. 

    But what happens when they do not follow that. What you say is correct but people are human I only won because I could prove they were not following the deciphers.. 
  • TEACUPTERRIERTEACUPTERRIER Member Posts: 44 Connected
    Focusing back on the original post, the only explanation I was given is I didn't meet the criteria,even though I did by their own criteria with things like aids I use. I still scored zero despite the fact that I use several aids around the house and when I'm out for physical disabilities. 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,938 Disability Gamechanger
    edited January 30
    @TEACUPTERRIER The question then breaks down into 
    - what sort of aids?
    - were they prescribed aids?

    @shella it was easy enough to see which bit was your addition. The issue is solved if posts aren’t endlessly quoted and are just replied to instead.  

    I’d appreciate it if you too would note that the terms of this site prohibit comment on posters rather than posts. Nothing in my posts “invalidates” those of others. However, the Work and Pensions committee report took evidence from the largest number of respondents in history. They still felt unable to conclude that HCPs lied. Are posters here seriously “invalidating” the evidence of all those thousands of claimants? 

    A useful little thread on the futility and dangers of trying to prove a HCP lied. Also makes the useful point that many of the people who level the accusation have little idea how PIP works. Presumably professional reps who threaten to pull out if their client uses the L word are in the wrong and pointing out that you’re skirting dangerously close to an allegation of fraud that could land you with a bit of bother is also wrong! 

    https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/132
  • Girl_No1Girl_No1 Member Posts: 58 Courageous
    I had read a lot on this and other sites before making my application.  I was well aware of accusations HCPs "lie".  When I received my report it stated "You stated you can walk 200metres unaided."  My initial thought was "That's a lie!!"  I never said that and the matter of physical mobility was not discussed at all at assessment.  I took a step back.  Rethought the matter.  The HCP must have ticked a box saying something like "able to walk 200m+ unaided" and this translated into the sentence indicating *I* had stated this.  What on the surface was a "lie" i.e. I had NOT stated any such thing, was a reasonable assessment by the HCP as I do not have any physical mobility issues and these were not under discussion/assessment therefore it is reasonable to assess (or extrapolate) based on this I can mobilise unaided for 200m+ .

    There were other areas where I felt the HCP had extrapolated inaccurately, in relation to my medications and my insight to my conditions.  I focused on those in my MR and received an increase in both DL and Mobility.  

    I think @mikehughescq advice is very sound on this matter - attempting to prove someone has deliberately lied about anything is a lost cause in any area of life.
  • lisathomas50lisathomas50 Member Posts: 3,809 Disability Gamechanger
    Its not nice to think that some one would deliberately  lie about you in an assessment 

    I think more likely interpreted  in a different way sometimes thry ask the same question in a different way which then the person gives a different answer 


  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,938 Disability Gamechanger
    edited January 31
    An excellent example @Girl_No1. Exactly the sort of thing I was driving at. HCPs indisputably draw wrong inferences all the time and extrapolate stuff which can easily be shown to be nonsense. However, accusing them of lying is accusing them of setting out to deliberately do so and even claimants with recordings will never be able to do that legally. 

    No number of assertions that 
    PatchG said:

    They do lie. 

    There are masses of cases of it, my own included.

    Blatant, flat out lies. Yes, I recorded mine. 
    will change that.

    Doing so risks a false accusation of fraud and is a magnificent way to blow your own appeal hearing. This is complicated of course by claimants who have recordings who then obtain PIP believing that it all turned on the recording. 

    That in turn is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how the weighing of evidence works. If a recording shows that a HCP misrecorded or got a fact wrong that doesn’t win you PIP. All that happens is that it establishes a basis for giving the HCP report less weight when looking at all the evidence in the round. If the rest of your evidence is good enough you will get PIP. However, if the rest of your evidence is poor no amount of demonstrably incorrect facts in a HCP report will get you PIP.
  • PatchGPatchG Member Posts: 42 Connected
    Secret recordings can and have been used at tribunal (transcript of).
    So to say they can't be used is incorrect.
    To say they don't help is incorrect.

    https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/3671-secret-pip-assessment-recording-leads-to-appeal-tribunal-win
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,938 Disability Gamechanger
    Literally the only case of its kind currently in the public domain but also a perfect example of the point I’ve just made. 

    That in turn is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how the weighing of evidence works. If a recording shows that a HCP misrecorded or got a fact wrong that doesn’t win you PIP. All that happens is that it establishes a basis for giving the HCP report less weight when looking at all the evidence in the round. If the rest of your evidence is good enough you will get PIP. However, if the rest of your evidence is poor no amount of demonstrably incorrect facts in a HCP report will get you PIP.
    Read every article you want on that case. You will not find a single one which explains precisely why the case was won. As the case was won I doubt that an SOR was requested (as its poor practice to request one when you win) so there is only

    - a summary decision, which is from a template and never explains the weighting of evidence, and, 
    - people interviewing the claimant and accepting their assumption that the recording won the appeal. There is no evidence of that at all.

    The case doesn’t even set a precedent on the admission of illegally obtained evidence as there’s more than enough case law on that already.

    Even B&W say “as a result” when there is literally no evidence at all that the case swung on the admission of the recording. Correlation and causation are two different things. 
  • PatchGPatchG Member Posts: 42 Connected
    I disagree with you. The case in the link is more than clear. The transcript of the recording was allowed. Anyone stating that recordings, or transcripts thereof, are not permitted by tribunal, is incorrect. 
    My CAB advisor did tell me a transcript of mine would be best in case of lack of correct equipment for the panel members to play back a recording.  

    Further, assessments CAN be recorded, and requested that assessors do so, 3days notice just has to be given.

    People need to to know what can be done and what can be used, not be given incorrect information. 

    The link is there for anyone to read and make up their own minds/discuss with whomever is directly helping with their own case.
  • happyfellahappyfella Member Posts: 114 Courageous
    You can use recordings at a tribunal, and that is from the horses mouth. With my case there were two investigations, and both investigations stated they did not believe the assessor was telling the truth on the report. My assessor claimed she watched me in the waiting room for 15 minutes and said i looked ok in the waiting room. However, the assessor turned up late and we actually saw her getting out of her car and appologizing to the receptionist for being late. This was also confirmed by the investigation. The assessor also claimed she asked me to do some tasks which she did not ask, and even put down the results. There were many other lies and i even received an appology for my experience. I was offered another assessment but i had lost faith in the system. I was also told to take it to appeal and was told i would win hands down. However, i did not have the energy. I only applied again towards the end of last year because my doctors kept on telling me to do it.

    My case is just one of many. Lots of people are winning appeals because of lies on the reports and that is a fact. That is why people now get told to not only take someone in with them but also to record the assessment. I am not saying they are all bad, but there are some bad ones out there. Before COVID there were stories that some MPs wanted this looked into. It does not stand to reason why some assessors would lie as there is nothing as far as I know for them to gain from it. But, it is happening and happening a lot
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,938 Disability Gamechanger
    edited January 31
    I’m going to politely ask you to withdraw your comments @PatchG. I’ve not said you can’t record. I’ve only commented on the likelihood of it being admitted or being pivotal. My posts on the subject remain on the thread and I’d appreciate it if you would not attribute things to me which I did not say. 
    PatchG said:
    I disagree with you. The case in the link is more than clear. The transcript of the recording was allowed. Anyone stating that recordings, or transcripts thereof, are not permitted by tribunal, is incorrect. 
    My CAB advisor did tell me a transcript of mine would be best in case of lack of correct equipment for the panel members to play back a recording.  

    Further, assessments CAN be recorded, and requested that assessors do so, 3days notice just has to be given.

    People need to to know what can be done and what can be used, not be given incorrect information. 

    The link is there for anyone to read and make up their own minds/discuss with whomever is directly helping with their own case.
    The case link makes no link between the recording and the win. At no point does it or any other article say the case was won because the recording was admitted. It simply says the audio was admitted and the case was won. The case is well known in the welfare rights world and none of us have ever seen or read any evidence that the case was won because of the audio. I stand 100% behind my original assertion. 

    I would strongly suggest you read previous posts very carefully before making any further assertions about “inaccurate” information.

    Notice to record varies from provider to provider. I do wonder if your CAB adviser told you how much a transcript would cost and that if you obtained one that it’s weight would have been reduced as evidence precisely because it wasn’t done officially. 

    Tribunals at present are mostly telephone based and run from panel members homes. The likelihood of them having the kit to hear audio or see video is close to nil. Even when tribunals were face to face I know of only 1 case in a decade where video surveillance was actually viewed and none where they managed to hear the audio. Same applies to all my colleagues. DWP don’t have the kit and nor on the whole do HMCTS. Most appellants don’t bother. Last stat I saw for ESA for example says that 0.66% of applicants ask to record. 

    @happyfella the investigation by MPs you refer to has already been linked to on this thread. It took place in 2016 and reported in 2017. It produced the largest number of responses in parliamentary history and still did not conclude that most HCPs lie. 

    They did suggest that recording all assessments would solve this which sounds great but was simplistic. 4 years later trials never really got off the ground because all parties have to consent and whilst lots of HCPs don’t want to it turned out that the bigger issue was that most claimants actually didn’t want to be recorded either. Especially true in the case of physical deformity, mental ill health, learning disability etc. 

    Lots of people are winning appeals because of lies on the reports and that is a fact. That is why people now get told to not only take someone in with them but also to record the assessment.
    There are no statistics as to why people win appeals. DWP assert its because people present “new” evidence on the day but that is nonsense. Very few appeals at all focus on the HCP report. Their focus is on verbal evidence on the day and written submissions as the most persuasive. Decisions are overturned because tribunals find different facts to DWP decision makers. That is to do with the quality of all the evidence and not just a HCP report on which they generally spend very little time.

    It is good advice to get representation but that has always been the case. However, you’ll be hard-pressed to find any representative who will suggest recording. That’s generally what claimants tell each other. Reps understand why claimants might want to do it but in terms of it winning a case it’s generally of negligible use. Even if it proves a HCP recorded the most outrageous inaccuracy that does not mean they deliberately lied and you still need the rest of your evidence to stack up in order to actually get PIP.
  • PatchGPatchG Member Posts: 42 Connected
    @mikehughescq
    You posted: 'mikehughescq said:
    You cannot legally record the assessment and even of you did neither DWP nor a tribunal will have the means to play it.'

    1) one CAN legally record the assessment.

    2) Transcript of recording. Doesn't need to be the audio. 

    I stand 100% by my comments.


  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,938 Disability Gamechanger
    edited January 31
    Well done @PatchG for not understanding my post. You can request that the assessment is recorded by the assessment provider. They can refuse for a variety of reasons. You cannot record the assessment yourself without the consent of the HCP. That doesn’t stop people doing it but it’s usefulness is limited at best as the lack of cases shows. 

    Shoot me down for suggesting that someone doesn’t put much effort into doing something illegal with limited relevance. Terrible advice obviously. If you want to advise people on here to do something illegal I’d suggest you’re in clear breach of the terms of the site and maybe need to take a deep breath and reflect on the wisdom of that.

    For the avoidance of doubt 

    9. Posting on our website 

    You agree to: 

    • only post material that complies with law in England and Wales and any other applicable law or regulation;”
    Transcripts of recordings won’t be provided by the assessment provider. DWP certainly won’t pay for it. If you pay for your own transcription it will undoubtedly be 

    - expensive 
    - admitted by a tribunal but given very little weight.

  • BrettWBrettW Member Posts: 607 Pioneering
    Actually Mike as far as I'm aware it is not illegal for a UK citizen to record a telephone conversation either with or without permission. It may not be admissible in a court but the act of recording a conversation itself isn't illegal
  • OverlyAnxiousOverlyAnxious Member Posts: 1,256 Disability Gamechanger
    Has a driving licence

    Didn't look anxious

    Arrived for assessment alone
    did you appeal? how did you get round the driving part. It's a bit confusing. I have been rejected with being able to drive also given as one of the reasons but i dont understand how that can be an issue when plenty people in reciept of pip drive .... ?
    Hi, sorry for such a late reply - I only seem to get notified if I'm tagged rather than quoted, will have to check my notification settings.

    Have you made an MR since this?  

    Personally I find the Mobility descriptors are discriminatory.  The biggest issues I have in life are about getting out, but because I can walk & drive very short distances, and have to go out alone because I can't deal with any other people (including family members), will never fit the mobility descriptors.  I just had to accept that and was awarded daily living through tribunal in the end.

    The reason driving is used against us for mobility is because you need good mental capacity to do it - which largely rules out anyone that can drive for the planning and following a journey part.  You will also have been asked if you can use a sat nav or Google Maps for this reason.  Although there is the odd exception, the vast majority of people that claim PIP and drive their own Motability cars are people with physical disabilities who cannot walk further than 20 metres. 
  • BrettWBrettW Member Posts: 607 Pioneering
    Its all a minefield @OverlyAnxious and even on here the advice is contradictory. On one hand people keep saying that the DM goes with the recommendations of the assessment the majority of the time, yet when people say that there are inaccuracies in the assessment they are told to forget the report and concentrate on other things. Its a no win situation a lot of the time and I think this is why tribunal's are a lot more successful than MR's. 

    Basically it comes across that the assessment is used when its in the DWP's favour but as soon as something on it can be questioned in the favour of the claimant they are then supposed to just ignore it and offer additional evidence even though the original (and sometimes incorrect) information was used to make the decision in the first place.
  • berry123berry123 Member Posts: 256 Courageous
    I'm.so anxious it's coming to reality I have my assessment in 2 weeks I'm.just over thinking but my daughter assures me mum you be fine.  I'm planning to make notes and go through with them with in the 2 weeks.  Will keep you updated guys.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,938 Disability Gamechanger
    edited January 31
    BrettW said:
    Actually Mike as far as I'm aware it is not illegal for a UK citizen to record a telephone conversation either with or without permission. It may not be admissible in a court but the act of recording a conversation itself isn't illegal
    You are spot on. Recording is not necessarily illegal. Playing it to a third party is. It’s an important distinction in law but less important here where the only reason to record it would be to present it to a third party. 
  • BrettWBrettW Member Posts: 607 Pioneering
    BrettW said:
    Actually Mike as far as I'm aware it is not illegal for a UK citizen to record a telephone conversation either with or without permission. It may not be admissible in a court but the act of recording a conversation itself isn't illegal
    You are spot on. Recording is not necessarily illegal. Playing it to a third party is. It’s an important distinction in law but less important here where the only reason to record it would be to present it to a third party. 
    Yes you have to obtain permission from the other parties on the call before you share the recording publically or to a third party. 
  • OverlyAnxiousOverlyAnxious Member Posts: 1,256 Disability Gamechanger
    In my case it is the descriptors themselves that are the main problem.  I was actually awarded mainly on what I'd consider the weakest part of my case.  I just slip through cracks with the other areas.  I do accept there has to be a cut-off point otherwise everyone would be entitled but the lack of flexibility outside of the specific descriptors is difficult.  I know others in similar situations as well, there are probably thousands of us across the UK.

    However, I could also see where the HCP was specifically trying to dispute my claims though.  With regards to food preparation for example, I have severe OCD around contamination and harm - essentially means I can't use any sharp knives or fresh foods and have to rely solely on pre-prepared items.  But because I can use a game controller it was deemed that I could use a veg peeler so no points awarded...

    I also suffer with agoraphobia, vertigo, motion sickness and IBS that make getting out anywhere near impossible, I can't use any form of public transport, have to rely on my own car to go anywhere, need a specific type of car, plus one that I can rely on 100%...but because I can walk and don't need assistance to go out I don't meet the mobility descriptors.  Surely the mobility side of PIP was purely designed to help people that have to spend more on transport due to their health conditions!

    I was mainly awarded for 'mixing with people' due to agoraphobia and social anxiety (possibly ASD but undiagnosed) and got a couple of points for food prep and nutrition as well.  Just looking at those points paints a very different picture of my life than the reality though.


  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,938 Disability Gamechanger
    Thus my assertion that recommending claimants on here should record and use as evidence is both illegal and a breach of site conditions. 
  • BrettWBrettW Member Posts: 607 Pioneering
    well as long as people are made to realise that as long as they only record it for their own personal use and records no legalities or site conditions will be breached. Its a much better situation than people being mistakenly led to the believe that recording the assessment in any situation is illegal
  • Cher_ScopeCher_Scope Posts: 3,334

    Scope community team

    Hi everyone!

    I feel it’s necessary to interject at this point with a few reminders:

    ·       PIP is a contentious issue that understandably leads to heated exchanges as to the efficacy of the system.  While we accept this will happen, it is important threads do not descend into unconstructive arguments and personal attacks that are both offensive to individual members and deviate from the OP’s query.  As such, when it is becoming evident that points of view are irreconcilable, please move on to other discussions where productive dialogues can be had.  To read more about the principles underlying our community, visit the online guidelines

    ·       Presenting accurate information is vital to ensuring we protect our members from further disablement (that which results from not getting what they are entitled to because of improper messaging).  However, it goes without saying that tone is equally important to convey information in a manner that doesn’t make people feel further oppressed, misunderstood or demeaned.  Please bear this in mind when taking the time to construct posts.   

    ·       Lastly, when quoting members’ comments, please ensure you are doing this accurately to avoid misrepresentation.  Although in the heat of the moment it may appear that you are, it is always worth taking a step back to question whether your interpretation is accurate or whether emotions may be biasing your response. 


    Although I think this has now been clarified, to reiterate in response to the question 'can you record a PIP assessment?' – the Citizens Advice webpage states:

    • ask if you can make an audio recording of the assessment - you must do this 3 days before your assessment and ask your provider about the rules for using recording equipment 

    Thank you everyone for your contributions and your shared passion around fighting for equality for disabled people. 

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  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,938 Disability Gamechanger
    An interesting update from B&W last year. 


    Since then of course the vast majority have not had this experience. The point remains that it is ultimately a bit of a red herring as it regains the case that DWP MR DMs do not have the facilities to listen to recordings nor the time. Same applies with tribunals. 
  • BrettWBrettW Member Posts: 607 Pioneering
    edited January 31
    The thing is Mike in this day and age its ridiculous that with modern technology that the system is still operating the way it is. 

    Most businesses and organisations now routinely record telephone conversations and advise callers of this fact at the beginning of a call. There is absolutely no reason why the DWP themselves should not be employing this system at present. Modern technology makes it very easy to do these recordings and they could easily be forwarded to a claimant on request just like they do with the paper based report.

    In the case of an MR or Tribunal the claimant could easily use timestamps for relevant sections of this recording so that they are not forced to listen through an entire assessment.

    This would not involve any need for DWP to invest in any expensive technology whatsoever because all this can be done on an average PC which the department already uses.

    The amount of problems employing this system would solve is immense and would actually result in the whole process not only being more efficient but also less costly.

    (edited for spelling error)
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,938 Disability Gamechanger
    edited January 31
    Apologies for the detail. This has been suggested previously and that’s a great theory @BrettW but it really isn’t that easy. First of all it’s not DWP who would be doing this. It’s separate private companies. 

    They would need to replace phones across their offices with VOIP phones which make it easier to record. However, the format in which that’s recorded would need to be replicated across HMCTS and DWP so they too could access them. Bear in mind that HMCTS access is not about tribunal venues. It’s about tribunal members being able to preview cases at home. Whilst lots of organisations do indeed record calls I think you’ll find few have to move the data around like this. 

    So, government would need to get separate companies to use similar systems and be able to output that recording in the same format so it’s accessible to all claimants; DWP decision makers and HMCTS staff at venues and at home. Frankly no private company will sign a government contract requiring that level of co-ordination and expenditure and there is no audio format which facilitates that. No-one is going to be spending their time deciding whether a file should be sent out on a USB stick, a CD, a DVD (let’s not forget video in this when face to face resumes). It’s untenable. 

    Unfortunately what you describe also can’t be done at present because you are transferring personal data and the DPA and GDPR implications are huge, not least because the information is both personal and medical. Encryption would be required at both ends. There are many people on this forum who I can well imagine would not have the first clue how to deal with an encrypted email requiring a remote login and it’s a huge leap to assume that DWP, HMCTS et al are populated with devices which have audio let alone claimants. 

    I hear what you say about time-stamping but that would be an illegal approach simply because DMs cannot pick and choose what evidence they take into account. If a file exists and is presented then it will all need to be listened to. Decision making speed; distressing for many at the best of times, would grind to a halt.

    Then you have the fact that many claimants health will mean they don’t want a recording and it may indeed exacerbate their condition. Should they then get a second rate service despite arguably having the greater need? What happens when people say yes but the recording is faulty or the data lost? The written report may be a perfectly accurate record but claimants could argue otherwise and push for a second assessment. Some claimants will also freak out at lost data and not want a further assessment. The dangers are obvious and huge. 

    This is before we get to the impact of a pandemic and the plain old irrefutable fact that tribunals overwhelmingly disregard HCP reports and focus on the claim pack and verbal evidence
  • BrettWBrettW Member Posts: 607 Pioneering
    See Mike that is the biggest issue I have with the system as it currently is.

    It is claimed that the majority of the time the DM goes with the recommendation of the assessment. As soon as a claim goes past the decision stage and into MR or Tribunal the assessment is on the whole disregarded if what you and others claim is correct, yet for the decision process it seems to be the main deciding factor in the majority of cases.

    Tribunals seem to overturn a lot of these decisions made off the assessment, so to me it suggests that the assessments themselves are not reflecting accurately the reality of the claimants situation so why is the DWP still using them as the main factor in the decision process so often when theres a lot of data suggesting that they are not effective in a lot of cases and why have they not been revised to correct this problem?
  • happyfellahappyfella Member Posts: 114 Courageous
    I’m going to politely ask you to withdraw your comments @PatchG. I’ve not said you can’t record. I’ve only commented on the likelihood of it being admitted or being pivotal. My posts on the subject remain on the thread and I’d appreciate it if you would not attribute things to me which I did not say. 
    PatchG said:
    I disagree with you. The case in the link is more than clear. The transcript of the recording was allowed. Anyone stating that recordings, or transcripts thereof, are not permitted by tribunal, is incorrect. 
    My CAB advisor did tell me a transcript of mine would be best in case of lack of correct equipment for the panel members to play back a recording.  

    Further, assessments CAN be recorded, and requested that assessors do so, 3days notice just has to be given.

    People need to to know what can be done and what can be used, not be given incorrect information. 

    The link is there for anyone to read and make up their own minds/discuss with whomever is directly helping with their own case.
    The case link makes no link between the recording and the win. At no point does it or any other article say the case was won because the recording was admitted. It simply says the audio was admitted and the case was won. The case is well known in the welfare rights world and none of us have ever seen or read any evidence that the case was won because of the audio. I stand 100% behind my original assertion. 

    I would strongly suggest you read previous posts very carefully before making any further assertions about “inaccurate” information.

    Notice to record varies from provider to provider. I do wonder if your CAB adviser told you how much a transcript would cost and that if you obtained one that it’s weight would have been reduced as evidence precisely because it wasn’t done officially. 

    Tribunals at present are mostly telephone based and run from panel members homes. The likelihood of them having the kit to hear audio or see video is close to nil. Even when tribunals were face to face I know of only 1 case in a decade where video surveillance was actually viewed and none where they managed to hear the audio. Same applies to all my colleagues. DWP don’t have the kit and nor on the whole do HMCTS. Most appellants don’t bother. Last stat I saw for ESA for example says that 0.66% of applicants ask to record. 

    @happyfella the investigation by MPs you refer to has already been linked to on this thread. It took place in 2016 and reported in 2017. It produced the largest number of responses in parliamentary history and still did not conclude that most HCPs lie. 

    They did suggest that recording all assessments would solve this which sounds great but was simplistic. 4 years later trials never really got off the ground because all parties have to consent and whilst lots of HCPs don’t want to it turned out that the bigger issue was that most claimants actually didn’t want to be recorded either. Especially true in the case of physical deformity, mental ill health, learning disability etc. 

    Lots of people are winning appeals because of lies on the reports and that is a fact. That is why people now get told to not only take someone in with them but also to record the assessment.
    There are no statistics as to why people win appeals. DWP assert its because people present “new” evidence on the day but that is nonsense. Very few appeals at all focus on the HCP report. Their focus is on verbal evidence on the day and written submissions as the most persuasive. Decisions are overturned because tribunals find different facts to DWP decision makers. That is to do with the quality of all the evidence and not just a HCP report on which they generally spend very little time.

    It is good advice to get representation but that has always been the case. However, you’ll be hard-pressed to find any representative who will suggest recording. That’s generally what claimants tell each other. Reps understand why claimants might want to do it but in terms of it winning a case it’s generally of negligible use. Even if it proves a HCP recorded the most outrageous inaccuracy that does not mean they deliberately lied and you still need the rest of your evidence to stack up in order to actually get PIP.

    Not sure of your agenda here. I am talking 2020. Not sure why you find it hard to believe about assessor lying. i suggest that you do listen more to people's experiences and what they have gone through. I personally find some of your replies insulting to those that have gone through assessments where the assessors have lied. I have spoken to many people about this because of my experience including a news editor, CAB, and other organisations who are looking into this.
  • MarkN88MarkN88 Member Posts: 763 Pioneering
    I have to agree with Mike. 

    When I started to help my mum, we were first referred to the local authority welfare rights team and I thought this was to "general" that we refused their help and declined their offer of helping with the form. 

    Me and my mum had started to put together our written submission and this time we accepted the help from a local sight loss charity and they wrote the most horrendous stuff that I had ever come across and wanted us to send every hospital letter, medical records, prescriptions, assessments that had been completed, etc. I disagreed. 

    In the end we spent days writing the claim pack, specifically referring to detailed examples, and focusing highly on what we knew they needed to know. 

    We included nothing, apart from a copy of her CVI (certificate of visual impairment). Yes, she had a face to face and the assessor who was a nurse and a really lovely person was kind, friendly and asked for clarification on a few things. Again when answering questions my mum specifically gave examples. 

    First time claim, awarded first time (Standard care/Enhanced mobility), no MR or appeal needed, no evidence apart from the CVI and the report we requested before the decision was made was spot on!
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,938 Disability Gamechanger
    @happyfella did it require my post quoting in full to say that? You make threads way harder to read for people who are ill, struggle to concentrate, have sight issues etc. 

    You’re not sure of my agenda!!! I listen to other people’s experiences daily and get paid for it. Your experience is your experience. My posts do not deny or refute that but you should not confuse anecdote with evidence or fact. Your experience is just that. Yours alone. It paints no wider picture and in light of the comprehensive work done by the Work and Pensions Committee we can be confident that is the case. 

    There is no doubt some HCPs record inaccurately. I have explained why that is. A very small number wilfully do so. There are bad apples in all walks of life. However, proving they lied is an entirely different matter as has already been done to death. 
  • happyfellahappyfella Member Posts: 114 Courageous
    My advice to people before going for an assessment when the face to face assessments become available is, take someone in with you, and notify PIP that you want to record the assessment. This way, you can make sure that you receive a professional assessment. If you have already been through an assessment and you have found lies on the report, then do report it. First go to your MP as they do carry more weight, and they will have a direct route to have this reported. Also make a complaint yourself. If you are not able to make a complaint then go to an advisor.

    In my case two investigations took place both in my favour. I was advised to go to the tribunal and I was also offered to have a new assessment. However, i was not in a great place to have another assessment, so against my Doctors orders and other people, i decided to call it a day. I was told the tribunal could take up to 12 months. About five months after the investigation my Doctor told me i need to fight it and he would support me. I said no. He then arranged for an organisation to call me who said i would win hands down at the tribunal and would get the money back dated. I told them i was not interested in having it back dated. They then said the quicker option would be to reapply. I did not want to go through with it, but after a couple of weeks i decided to go ahead. The process was very fast and i was surprised how fast it was. I had an assessment over the phone and the assessor even said to me that she was sorry about the experience i went through and it should not have happened. I did not even mention my previous experience.

    The person who filled the forms in for me said this was the quickest she had experience of a claim going through. My claim was also backed up by my doctor who sent a strong worded letter.

    So, if you have failed then do go to appeal and do get professional help on your side.
  • PatchGPatchG Member Posts: 42 Connected
    BrettW said:
    Actually Mike as far as I'm aware it is not illegal for a UK citizen to record a telephone conversation either with or without permission. It may not be admissible in a court but the act of recording a conversation itself isn't illegal
    Correct.
    As long as one party to a conversation is aware of being recorded, it's legal. 

    What a recording is subsequently used for, that is what deems illegality or not, ie to use for criminal blackmail or to sell to the media etc.  Not the recording itself.



  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,938 Disability Gamechanger
    Yes @PatchG so can we be clear that you appear to be advocating breaking the law as best practice?
  • happyfellahappyfella Member Posts: 114 Courageous
    edited January 31
    @PatchG dont reply to mike, <moderator removed -personal attacks breach our online guidelines.  Please be mindful of your words.  Thank you - Cher>. If you want to record the conversation then just inform them at the beginning of the telephone coversation that you are recording it, and if you are going to a face to face assessment then give them notice that you are going to record the interview. If you need to appeal then the recording can be used. I wish you well
  • shellashella Member Posts: 31 Courageous
    @TEACUPTERRIER The question then breaks down into 
    - what sort of aids?
    - were they prescribed aids?

    @shella it was easy enough to see which bit was your addition. The issue is solved if posts aren’t endlessly quoted and are just replied to instead.  

    I’d appreciate it if you too would note that the terms of this site prohibit comment on posters rather than posts. Nothing in my posts “invalidates” those of others. However, the Work and Pensions committee report took evidence from the largest number of respondents in history. They still felt unable to conclude that HCPs lied. Are posters here seriously “invalidating” the evidence of all those thousands of claimants? 

    A useful little thread on the futility and dangers of trying to prove a HCP lied. Also makes the useful point that many of the people who level the accusation have little idea how PIP works. Presumably professional reps who threaten to pull out if their client uses the L word are in the wrong and pointing out that you’re skirting dangerously close to an allegation of fraud that could land you with a bit of bother is also wrong! 

    https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/132
    I stand by what I have said. The information is out there for anyone to find and read. That is what I did. I do not care what reports you have read I go by what is actually happening in the real. I understand also how a commission report works. 
    This is my experience a and of a lot of others.
  • TEACUPTERRIERTEACUPTERRIER Member Posts: 44 Connected
    You can make a recording with their permission. The point of a recording isn't to play it in court. It's to make sure that the assessor gives you a fair hearing and doesn't write down what they want and disregard what you actually say. Nothing I said was taken down. My assessment contains actions I didn't do and things I never said, as well as several contradictions and I can prove it! It says I refused a physical exam, not true! Then gives the results of the physical exam that I supposedly refused, including that I performed certain motions physically impossible due to injury at the time! This is what needs to be addressed! 
  • Cher_ScopeCher_Scope Posts: 3,334

    Scope community team

    <thread closed pending moderator review>
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  • Cher_ScopeCher_Scope Posts: 3,334

    Scope community team

    The decision has been made for this thread to be closed permanently due to repeated personal attacks, inaccurate information and a poor tone that goes against the supportive ethos underpinning our online community.  

    Please be assured that any breaches of the community guidelines will result in disciplinary action, which may include a first warning, users being placed on moderation or lastly, banned.

    To clarify any ambiguity surrounding the audio recording of PIP consultations, please read the following excerpt taken from the Government’s PIP assessment guide part 1.

    1.6.57 The audio recording of face-to-face consultations is not currently part of the contractual specification for PIP assessments.
    1.6.58 Claimants may use their own equipment to audio record their face-to-face consultation, should they wish to, subject to any reasonable conditions the DWP chooses to impose on such recordings. These reasonable conditions are:
    ·       the claimant must inform the AP in advance that they wish to audio record their consultation. This is to allow the AP to ensure that the HP scheduled to carry out the consultation is willing to be recorded. If the HP is unwilling to be audio recorded, an alternative appointment should be made with an HP who is willing
    ·       the claimant must be able to provide a complete and accurate copy of the audio recording to the HP at the end of the consultation. For this reason, certain devices that are capable of editing, real-time streaming or video recording the session are not approved. Non-approved devices include (but are not limited to) PCs, tablets, smart phones, MP3 players, smart watches, and devices that are not capable of providing a verifiable media copy that can be easily checked during the assessment. Acceptable formats for such recordings are restricted to CD and audio cassette only
    ·       the claimant must sign a consent form in which they agree to provide a copy of the audio recording and not use the audio recording for unlawful purposes
    1.6.59 APs must publicise these conditions and ideally include them in communications sent to claimants before they attend a face-to-face consultation.
    1.6.60 Video recording of consultations is not permitted. This is to ensure the safety and privacy of staff and other claimants.
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