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When DwP hold medical evidence from the tribunal

tru88le

Do the first tier tribunal ever know if the dwp has pulled your medical evidence.?
It seems such a dastardly trick to be able to remove your opponents evidence secretly and have them turn up with no medical back up.

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tru88le

Sadly for me i replued but scope withheld my replues.
Ive reread your post and need to know which of your examples rule 24 relate to when evidemce is withheld on that rule. I cant find any mention of it let alone done to death.

tru88le

Do you know why they mention a part of this rule when they decidie not to include documents? Thx.

Would they cite this rule when deciding not to include documents on account of their being out of date etc?

Does anyone have the link to the thread where "this has been done to death"? So I can see if it mentions what i'm interested in.
Which in my case is the dwp have not put my medical notes in the bundle and they mentioned a part of rule 24
that related to DLA medical notes in terms of them being outdated and thereforedidnt put them in..

I know many people here dont see medical data as very important as evidence but I have on record a tribunal judge saying the medical notes were "of cardinal importance to this case", i dont care to hear an opinion of why he said that but these words being ftom a tribunal jjudge rather contradict the views of many and I doubt they are unique to the case in question.
That said why would the dwp exclude such information, especially whrn the said DLA evidence was only three months old and formed the basis of an indefinite award just weeks prior to being 'out of date'
Anyway if anyone knows the link to the font of all knowledge on the subject i'll look myself.
Thx

tru88le

I should add that if your correct the dwp did nothing wrong then the decision wouldnt have been set aside.

calcotti

tru88le said:

I should add that if your correct the dwp did nothing wrong then the decision wouldnt have been set aside.

Surely the UT sets a decision aside if the FTT tribunal has erred in law, not because of something DWP have done.

calcotti

Username_removed said:... the FTT judge had simply not made good enough notes and had forgotten some of the detail.

I have trouble writing a meeting minute more than 24 hours after a meeting. I can’t imagine trying to deal with a request to do so up to a month afterwards!

tru88le

I dont know why you see some mystery in the dla notes as I mentiondd them only in terms of my medical notes and their being relevant about 8 weeks earlier for my dla claim which was renewed indefinitely.
Then being outdated for pip.
I considet the judge saying they were of cardinal importance to be a better indicator than what a group of people here believe. Belief isnt always basrd on fact.

tru88le

calcotti said:
tru88le said:
I should add that if your correct the dwp did nothing wrong then the decision wouldnt have been set aside.
Surely the UT sets a decision aside if the FTT tribunal has erred in law, not because of something DWP have done.

You could call it a knock on effect, they (dwp) excluded evidence which at the hearing served to make me appear unprepared and as the judge said not much chance of success... (that was the warning) so he adjourned, at the next hearing the judge didnt know what the first judge gave the warning for so proceeded on dodgy grounds and me with more but not much more evidence. Plus some written statements from nurses. with little tangible proof to back up my appeal.
As people on here, whom mikehughes mentions like to consider the omission of medical evidence as of minor importance to the hearing.
I would be interested to know if they would considet claiming pip without any medical evidence? [Removed by moderator - please watch your tone]
Well what if the medical evidence you supplied was removed, would you still feel confident? And if you lost the appeal and then found out your medical submissions had been quietly removed before the hearing would you still feel that the omission of your notes had little bearing on the decision?
[removed by moderator - please watch your tone]

[Removed by moderator - personal attack].
I dont get your assertion that a judge being so underworked he has no time to write reports or think about them. Presume you mean ftt judges.
You also state that any errors found are found in the judges sor. There are other areas errors can be caused.
[Removed by moderator - personal attacks. Please watch your tone, and avoid profanity]

You seem to think i'm under a delusion that i should be winning and its all so unfair.
The reality is when a rep or tribunal sees the full story and still says i should withdraw the appeal i would do.
Consider your own example would you have considered telling that person they had no chance even after several hearings without seeing the medical history? [Removed by moderator - please watch your tone]. Obviously it was that evidence that formed your opinion so why tell them to quit if its not that important?
What drives me on is knowing it hasnt been considered with full evidence yet.
The dwp gave me10 points the tribunal 0 points.
Does that not indicate anything about what effect the lack of medical data had?

[General note from moderator - please watch your tone @tru88le. We don't tolerate personal attacks against other memebrs.]

Ross_Alumni

Hi @Username_removed

Thanks for your reply, I hope you are getting along okay.

It's important for us to allow open discussion on the community, in this case @tru88le has thoughts on the subject and they deserve to have their say, just like anybody else does. A constructive conversation was, and still very much is, possible.

We do prevent many comments from appearing publicly on the community, however in some cases it works better from a moderation standpoint to make edits to posts and allow what remains to appear on the community if it makes sense and contributes to the discussion.

Having said that, just because a comment is permitted for public view with edits, this doesn't mean we don't proceed to follow our disciplinary procedures privately with any involved individuals. Abuse of any kind is not accepted on the community and in this instance any comments seen to have been in breach of our community guidelines were removed and addressed.

tru88le

@Mikehughescq Thanks for replying but you are asking me the same question i am asking you about what the removal of medical notes could possibly do to my chances of winning the appeal.
You cant remember a case whdre medical records even mattered?
Come on, as you say yourself your left to convince them tbe illness real anr that shouldnt need to be said at this stage. If i cant convince them i have an illness i am scuppered that is the relevance of my medical notes i cant or might not be able to convince them i have an illness as welk as they would like and its all time wasted about how it affects me not wether i even have an illness.
If what you say is true there would be no need to provide any medical notes at all at any stage if it was a matter of simply tellling them i had a diagnosis. The lack 9f medical data causes someone who cannot explain very well to have no back up and they will fail.
I know the judge didnt believe much i said, i came across badly i wrecked my own appeal, i can accept my errors asi have some humility <moderator removed – comments made against community guidelines. Please remember to not comment on another member’s character and keep on topic>

But i am certain i would have fared better had my notes not been omitted.
<moderator removed – comments made against community guidelines. Please remember to not comment on another member’s character and keep on topic>
I dont agree that anecdotal evidence counts for as much as you say and i have seen for myself the dwp dismiss anecdotal evidence but it seems any oral replies are inevitably anecdotal, when talking about experiences and issues.
My point yet again was that the dwp awarded 10 points which the tribunal removed. I see that as illogically different in their assessment of points and i could only see the lack of medical notes as the cause.
Think about it, why would they give me a warning about my chances of success before i even say a word? That must mean that something is affecting my case and it cannot be anything i've said!
It can only be a lack of medical back up, simple proof of the illness that verifies the condition and then they can ask away but without it they are forced to focus on wether you even have an illness first.
I'm not unwilling to accept your advice but i cant do that unless it is relating to the question i ask.
Also regarding what my rep said i know they made their opinion on an incomplete tribunal bundle and i only said i would heed their advice if it was given in light 9f seeing the full bundle. Until that point how can they advise without the full facts? Also my knowing they havent seen all tbe evidence causes me to not heed their advice because I know its based on only partial knowledge of the facts.
I simply said i WOULD HEED THEM IF I KNEW THEY HAD ALL THE FACTS.
<moderator removed – comments made against community guidelines. Please remember to not comment on another member’s character and keep on topic>

Cher_Alumni

@Tru88le Thank you for your post. It has been heavily edited to remove all instances whereby the community guidelines have been breached. We understand the subject of PIP can give rise to heated emotion and debate, however personal attacks against other members will not be tolerated. Should any future posts you make contain similar non-permitted content, they will result in appropriate disciplinary action. To avoid this, please remember to keep conversation based around the subject matter and not the character of a person who may disagree. Thank you.

Cher_Alumni

@Username_removed I'm sorry but the inference that action wasn't taken where a member broke the community guidelines isn't found on evidence. Where members breach the community guidelines, action is taken but kept private for confidentiality reasons.

Also, Adrian has been on annual leave the past week. I will flag up that you are awaiting a response regarding the review and also feed on the concerns you raise regarding moderation.

Girl_No1

Like @Username_removed I am a member of various fora and the discipline of posters is quite obvious when they breach clear guidelines/become personally abusive.

I agree with him posters here seem to be allowed to abuse others without obvious sanction. However, I have noticed it is those with the most knowledge who are most frequently subjected to this abuse. To me, this suggests those "dishing out" the abuse may well behave similarly when encountering anyone, anywhere, in a position of authority / expertise.

As @Username_removed has also alluded "some" people, obviously not all, misuse their disability/illness as an excuse to be, quite frankly, obnoxious to others. If it's, as has been suggested, stress-related, given so many of us are stressed beyond belief by the entire benefits process, this behaviour would be an hourly occurence, no? I don't see that as being the case, therefore there must be another reason.

If those dishing-out abuse are not called-out on this they will simply continue. I speak here from having spent 42 years working in the social work realm where such individuals were, indeed, "pandered to" for decades at great cost to those they abused, not those sitting miles away forming policy, but those on the front line attempting to provide a service.

However, agencies have now, fortunately, realised those on the receiving end have rights too and vexacious/abusive complainants are being called-out when they do so and sanctioned for unacceptable behaviour - there are no longer myriad warnings, chances, talking-to's that simply served to allow people to continue to abuse other people.

Unfortunately, that is what I see happening here ... excuses being made for unacceptable behaviour with no detriment to those behaving badly and certainly very little in the way of support for those being abused. Perhaps there is a different/better way for Scope to provide a service to those who seem unable to prevent themselves from abusing others? A one-to-one service? A direct referral to appropriate WR officers for one-to-one support? Anything, really, that prevents experienced/helpful posters walking away due to having been abused and not protected.

tru88le

Username_removed said:
At this stage @Cher_Scope it no longer matters. The point is that your moderation is wholly broken when you allow abusive posters to persist and I will simply not accept that. It doesn’t happen anywhere else on the net bar the idiocy of Facebook and Twitter and your organisations seems deaf to the overwhelming criticisms of their approach and only to happy to adopt it as your own. As an organisation you are not enabling disabled people. You are enabling abuse and I for one am not going to tolerate it any more. No-one should have to.

@Cher_Scope is entirely correct and I have witnessed the process first hand unfortunately.
My problem is trying to ignore the manner in which you reply your answets which are partly heloful are also offensive and belittling. I have to tread like on eggshells [removed by moderator].

If you consider your own responses, do they appear friendly or made with good spirit? its like being treated like a fool. For continuing to query but the reason I do thst is because I dont get the answer that satisfies the constraints of the question. I dont care what a judge earns or what a clerk does when i'm asking about something else [removed by moderator]

For example i asked what effect the missing evidence had on my appeal hearing. You said more or less that it would have none, you went on to say anecfotal evidrnce is most important. This leaves me wondering then why did the judge adjourn for lack of medical evidence and before i had spoken zt all? Why adjourn without hearing any anecdotal evidence if thats more important and tbe medical notes have little significance?
If you were correct then they would have heard the anecdotal stuff surely.

In my case the judge looked at the evidence and disregarded the anecdotal stuff and focused on the medical notes and deemed them important enough to adjourn. That tells me that to that judge the medical notes were more vital than anecdotal evidence otherwise he would have continued. With the hearing.
Therefore no matter how compelling oral evidence is it is dependant on the medical notes being satisfactory as well.
That includes evidence from the assessment which is also not enough on its own with your medical notes.

One thing you werecorrect on, I do indeed need a rep but in my part of the country they are non existant aside from cab who dont rep. Thay is why I had a rep from Coventry spprox 200 miles away to deal with the upoer tribunal.
But that help paid for with legal aid is only for the upper tribunal .
Now i am looking at paying a 50% fee for assistance from this point.
By the way, the rep telling me to quit on due to lack of medical evidence was in effect contradicting your assertion of the med notes being unimportant, he seemed to think the lack of them was of primary importance...