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Bagpuss56 Member Posts: 19 Listener
edited January 2021 in PIP, DLA, and AA
I have had pip reduced as DWP say that extreme nausea and vomiting which prevent me from even preparing a simple meal are outside the scope of the descriptor they scored me 0 points, also i suffer from horrible incontinence and uncontrollable foul smelling flatulence and do not like to go out or mix with others, again scored 0 points and was told this reasoning was outside the scope of the descriptor, I thought that it was all about the impact your illness has on your daily life or is this ATOS once again


  • cupcake88
    cupcake88 Member Posts: 1,227 Pioneering
    Was this reduced at your review ? Or was this reduces due to you putting threw a change of circumstances. 
  • Bagpuss56
    Bagpuss56 Member Posts: 19 Listener
    reduced on 2 year renewal of award
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 28,349 Disability Gamechanger

    I answered your question on your other thread here.

    To add to that, have you been refused completely or had award reduced because your post isn't clear? Was this a transfer from DLA to PIP or a review of an existing award of PIP?

  • Bagpuss56
    Bagpuss56 Member Posts: 19 Listener
    this was a two year award review of existing PIP which was reduced from enhanced to standard on the two descriptors mentioned. preparing food reduced from 2 to 0 meeting other people from 4 to 0,  help with medication, even though my husband does all my medication and even injects me they took away the 1 point for needing help
  • cupcake88
    cupcake88 Member Posts: 1,227 Pioneering
    Why did they reduce those points had any thing changed to your health ? 
  • cupcake88
    cupcake88 Member Posts: 1,227 Pioneering
    I’m sorry this has happened 
  • Bagpuss56
    Bagpuss56 Member Posts: 19 Listener
    cupcake 88 no in fact my medication has increased, i do now think that a policy of exclude at all cost is being sort, the telephone  assessment was carried out by a nurse of only 2 years standing who freely admitted that she only had a basic knowledge of my illness, despite a request that someone with detail knowledge do it, i told dwp that i would obtain a voice copy and was stunned to learn that atos or whatever they now pretend to be do not record assessments, how the hell can you prove what was said and not said
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 28,349 Disability Gamechanger
    A HCP doesn't need to have any knowledge of any conditions because PIP isn't about a diagnosis, it's all about how your conditions affect you against the PIP descriptors and the only person who knows this is yourself.

    You don't need to prove that anything was said or wasn't said because that isn't going to get you a PIP award. Your best chance of an award is proving those descriptors apply to you and you are the only one that can do this.
  • Bagpuss56
    Bagpuss56 Member Posts: 19 Listener
    sorry poppy123456 i understand you have experience, but the hcp showed in both comments and in writing that they did not have a full understanding of the nature, side effect and medication involved then they would not have written what they did, it was the hcp who made the suggestion that nausea and vomiting was no reason not to be able to prepare a simple meal, it was comments by the hcp which suggested that my wife could still meet people and socialise, she wrongly stated that my wife filled out her questionnaire despite being told 4 times that i filled it out because my wife was incapable due to illness, wrongly stated that my wife wears pads for incontinence when in fact she was told that she wears full adult nappies, the hcp who stated that my wife could get in and out of our car without difficulty when that question was not even posed to my wife during interview, I was right next to her during this interview, so sorry no, everything said and written during interview has a massive effect on the outcome.
    so how are you supposed to prove that an error has been made by the hcp writing the report if you do not have a copy of the original audio file, it becomes your word against there's and with ATOS that only has one outcome, sorry to complain but i feel you are being a little blind to the real workings of how these people truly work, i am disabled myself with multiple illnesses, and had a massive fight all the way to tribunal which i won when i worked to prove the hcp lied on her report and this was proved the case in the end and she was removed from ATOS books, no apology to me for stating 6 incorrect and downright lies on her report, nothing, just oh ok then hears your money back for the last 8 months.
    my wife's hcp appeared in a national newspaper about how covid 19 caused her to work 16 hour days and that mentally and physically she was exhausted, but obviously not so exhausted that she could not make some money on the side working for ATOS, I am not ungrateful to her true work, but to openly lie on a report to remove part of some benefit is unforgivable.
    Sorry once again, but there is some coffee to be smelt here, and the sooner everyone sees that the government and this company have an agenda which they are prepared to lie and cheat those who deserve this benefit for the better
    I understand you are trying to help people and i thank you for that, but some reality please.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 28,349 Disability Gamechanger
    edited January 2021
    I don't need reality but thanks for the advice. I'm also disabled and claim PIP myself and i can tell you that trying to prove the HCP wrong is not going to get your wife a PIP award, or an increase in the award she already has. You can't prove what was or wasn't said and like you said it will be your word, against their's and that's not what it's about. The HCP will very likely not even remember you or your wife because they see so many people.

    Concentrating on the assessment report for a Tribunal can harm your case. What matters now is the strength of your evidence.
  • Bagpuss56
    Bagpuss56 Member Posts: 19 Listener
    so it would appear that lying is just part of the process, and that we just have to put up with the damage to a claim that those lies inflict.
    my wife's, evidence is super strong, to somebody who has the know how to understand its impact on her daily life, if you do not have that knowledge you cannot possibly give a fair assessment.
    we seem to be at loggerheads over the issue of morals, forgive me but you seem to be condoning the actions of lying on an official document, others as i have read also feel that lies have been told on these reports.
    this is a conversation  thread do you really think i am that stupid i would blast away at a tribunal, her evidence and letters of support from doctors and specialists, the details of 4 visits confirmed by her specialist that the hcp said did not happen will show this.
    and if you read back your post you said that proving the hcp wrong will not get her a pip award or an increase, I DID, by doing just that,
    her report clearly states that she has only seen her specialist once in the last year, we have paper proof that that is clearly incorrect, so 1 error can be 2,3,4 etc and each can make a huge difference because this report forms the opinion of the decision maker.
    so sorry once again reality is needed if only on the moral issue itself
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Posts: 8,838 Connected
    I’m afraid you’re in danger of losing sight of what it is you’re trying to achieve here. The object is not to prove what the HCP did or did not do. The object is to score points and get the correct rate of PIP. You will not achieve the latter by addressing the former. On this @poppy123456 is wholly correct. 

    Starting from an assumption that there is a “policy” of exclusion suggests you’re the person who has gone in without an open mind or knowledge of the process rather than the HCP and subsequent comments only reinforce that. Time for a step back. 

    If the HCP says that nausea and vomiting are no reason to not prepare a simple meal you need to ask yourself what specific evidence was given to the contrary. Simply saying that it is a reason is not evidence. It is assertion and nothing more. Evidence on the other hand would be a detailed example of an occasion when the person attempted the activity but failed explicitly because of nausea and vomiting. The date, occasion, comprehensive no details spared version of what took place, where, why, in front of whom and so on. Two examples like that and you’re home and dry. 

    The other side of this is that you need to understand more about PIP and what the HCP was saying. The HCP was saying that nausea and vomiting would not score you 1f. I agree. Neither would prevent you starting to prepare food. They may stop you continuing but not starting. So, if it’s not obviously 1f then what is it? It can’t be 1b because that’s to do with using an aid or appliance. It can’t be 1c because there’s no reason nausea and vomiting would prevent you using an oven but not a microwave. Can’t be 1d as that’s about a need for prompting. That leaves 1e around supervision and assistance. That’s an option but you’re then into it being assistance not prompting and that then leads onto questions of how much assistance; doing specifically what; why and how often. Is it needed more than 50% of the time for example? My guess is they’ve not been given any of that information or detailed examples. They’ve just been given an assertion. Can’t do this cos of that. That will not get those points. 

    In reality your case for those points is around reliability i.e. can the person do the task in a reasonable time, to a reasonable standard, safely or repeatedly. 

    You’ll note that none of the above involves you challenging the HCP. PIP is about the strength of your evidence not the weakness of theirs. 
  • Cher_Inactive
    Cher_Inactive Posts: 4,412

    Scope community team

    Hi @Bagpuss56 and thank you for your post.  I'm sorry it's under these circumstances we meet and I can understand your frustration.  I have Crohn's Disease too and the impairment effects can be horrendous in isolation, without navigating the PIP process on top of it too.  

    Unfortunately, I think there may have been some miscommunication on this thread in that you considered the HCP's lying to be condoned by @poppy123456 ; Rather than this, I believe Poppy was advising you to channel your efforts into the tribunal appeal to secure the PIP award you deserve.  

    Your sense of injustice around inaccurate reporting is completely understood by us all and it's good to hear you have successfully challenged previous instances of malpractice.  However, if you follow @mikehughescq 's guidance about strengthening your evidence for appeal you will hopefully have a better outcome.

    I hope you are keeping well and please let us know how you get on.
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