Lost PIP Tribunal

JS69

Hi everyone, i'm looking for some advice, i am the appointee for my son who has autism, he was on DLA until he turned 16 then we applied for pip, lost that went to MR, lost that, so went for Tribunal and have just lost that too. At his tribunal which was over the phone, i helped him at one point when they asked him a question and was told not to respond.  He has been let down his whole life my relevant authorities, i have been taking him to an from doctors etc since h was 3, and he only got a final diagnosis when he was 15, school let him down terribly, so he had no EHCP plan, he is at college now, but obviously working from home, which he prefers, but struggles with at the same time.

I read the descriptors and what i cant understand is, my son doesn't cook for himself, he has a fear of fire, and doesn't understand that things can be hot, so always needs supervision in the kitchen, he's 17 now, an still scored 0 points, yet i think he should have got some for the descriptor of needing supervision?. Anyway that was just one of the points that baffles me.  

So now as i understand it there's nothing else i can do, i have to apply for a statement of reason, do i do that via email/phone or letter?

Thank you

poppy123456

HI and welcome,

I'm sorry to hear this. To request the statement of reasons and record of proceedings you need to email HMCTS. When you receive these you need to find someone to go through them to see if they can find the error in law. If this isn't found then you won't be able to take this any further.

You can of course start a new claim but doing so using the same evidence you previously used will likely see another refusal.

I'd highly recommend you speak to an advice agency near you for further expert advice. This link will tell you what's local to you.

https://advicelocal.uk/

JS69

Hi and thank you, there's no way my son will agree to go through all this again, it was bad enough for him to attend the Face to Face and then answer their questions at tribunal, i just feel as though he's been let down again, and this time there's nothing i can do to make it right 

lisathomas50

@JS69 I f you did re apply you could do it on papper rather than phone or face to face as on paper you can put everything  down what they need to know about your sons problems and how it affects them and you can help your son do that and send medical evidence aswel alot less stressful and you can get your pont across as sometimes face to face and phone ones are way to stressful  and things you want to say dont come across as well 

At the moment it is only dine over the phone or pspper  its a shame to lose out if he needs it 

This is only a suggestion

Alfie2020

Hope you get it sorted has soon has, good luck 

janer1967

Hi I am sorry about your sons tribunal decision.  As poppy has said there isnt a great deal you can do unless you find an error in law 

I also understand not wanting to go through it all again 

Just sending my wishes to you both 

BrettW

I'm sorry to hear how this has affected your son @JS69. My son has autism and I know how it affects him when he has to deal with these kind of problems and he's in his mid 20's

Maybe the best thing to do would be to consult with any medical staff involved with your son and a professional who specialises in this area to try a new application and to push for a paper based assessment.

Its not fair how vulnerable people can fall through the cracks of a system that isn't perfect but looking from their side of it there is only so much they can do within the limits of what they are given to work with.

Personally I think the discriptors are far too limiting in the areas they cover but unfortunately thats all any of us can work with unless the government decides to do an overhaul of the system which at some point they probably will.

Give your son my regards and I wish you both well

poppy123456

May i ask if you are his appointee or did he deal with his own claim himself? It's an awful lot for someone with ASD to deal with.

You also mention cooking, which comes under preparing a meal. What about the other 9 activities for daily living because there's 10 in total, not just the one.

If you do re-apply then i urge you to get some help because it does help to have some understanding of the descriptors and what they mean. PIP and DLA are 2 totally different benefits.

poppy123456

lisathomas50 said:

@JS69 I f you did re apply you could do it on papper rather than phone or face to face as on paper you can put everything  down what they need to know about your sons problems and how it affects them and you can help your son do that and send medical evidence aswel alot less stressful and you can get your pont across as sometimes face to face and phone ones are way to stressful  and things you want to say dont come across as well 

At the moment it is only dine over the phone or pspper  its a shame to lose out if he needs it 

This is only a suggestion

Not everyone has a paper based assessment, these are very rare. A form needs to be filled out first to apply and once that's returned with all evidence, if they don't have enough of information then an assessment will be needed. As we know telephone assessments have replaced face to face for now.

JS69

poppy123456 said:

May i ask if you are his appointee or did he deal with his own claim himself? It's an awful lot for someone with ASD to deal with.

You also mention cooking, which comes under preparing a meal. What about the other 9 activities for daily living because there's 10 in total, not just the one.

If you do re-apply then i urge you to get some help because it does help to have some understanding of the descriptors and what they mean. PIP and DLA are 2 totally different benefits.

Yes I am his appointee, and preparing meals was one of the problems, but he struggles with quite a few of the others too, he can’t follow a route etc, always needs someone to take him and drop him places etc, doesn’t communicate well with people would never ask directions, always needs prompting which is what I was doing during the meeting when they told me to be quiet. Gets anxious with unfamiliar surroundings and people, has to be reminded when to shower & take medication. Is hopeless with money and if paying in cash needs the exact amount. Lots of other things he struggles with that he needs help/support/supervision with. When I went through the descriptions myself I added up 10 points, yet they gave him zero. 

lisathomas50

@poppy123456 I know that poppy but its still an option if you want to do that if your nervous or think you won't put things across properly 

JS69

They had all the paper originals and statements from child psychologist etc I just wonder if they even read them or did they just read the DWP report 

woodbine

As above really unless it can be found that the tribunal made an error in law it can go no further, so then you are back to applying again which of course has to be done on paper, if you could get help from welfare rights or similar and submit new or more upto date evidence it might stand a chance, it has to be said though that with only a few exceptions the assessment atm would be done by telephone.
Let us know how you get on?

lisathomas50

@JS69 hi you could ask @mikehughescq to see if he can help you any further 

Adrian_Scope

Hi @lisathomas50, Mike has asked before not to be tagged into specific conversations as he'll aim to reply if he thinks he has anything to add. 
@JS69, I'm sorry to read your son's appeal was unsuccessful, have you given much thought to reapplying or discussing with a Welfare Rights or similar agency about looking for an error in law/taking it to upper tribunal? Have you requested a statement of reasons?

lisathomas50

@Adrian_Scope I am sorry about thst I wasn't aware  and sorry Mike 😐 

Adrian_Scope

No worries @lisathomas50, I was just letting you know in case you hadn't seen his posts about it in the past.

JS69

hi, I don’t know what welfare rights is/are? And yes I emailed the court yesterday asking for a statement of reason, but I think that will take a while to come through. I have asked my son if he wants to go through it all and try again and he said no, he found the face to face hard, and even the things written on that were not things we had said. One of the problems is we had a late diagnosis aged 15 so nothing was put in place at school at all, so because he attended mainstream school they don’t see there’s an issue 🤷🏻‍♀️

Adrian_Scope

I can definitely understand why he wouldn't want to face another assessment, I think it's something a lot of people experience and feel. Would he find it easier now that it's a telephone assessment? 

Did you receive any help with the initial form? 

Welfare Rights offer advice and help with benefits. If you put your postcode in https://advicelocal.uk/ you should be able to find a range of organisations around you. We also have a free Helpline you can contact on 0808 800 3333 or email [email protected]

JS69

He’s sort of lost all faith in the system, when I told him their response to both the face to face and telephone call he doesn’t understand why people don’t understand him if that makes sense. I read out the face to face report and his reaction was well that’s not true. Being autistic he’s very honest and says it how it is. So now he has no trust in them. And he’s struggling to understand how a doctor can give him a diagnosis, but a panel can say that he doesn’t have any problems, he’s very confused. I’ll look at welfare rights and see where’s near me, and I’ve also emailed the court for a statement of reasons, so maybe when I get that back someone can take a look at it. 

Cher_Scope

Hi @JS69

I understand your son's thoughts.  It's a challenging process to say the least.  Please let us know how you get on and we are here if you have any more questions or need support.  

JS69

Hi guys, I requested a transcript of the case and they’ve sent me a form EX107. I’ve started filling it in but there’s a section asking about payment and invoicing details 🤷🏻‍♀️

MarkN88

JS69 said:

Hi guys, I requested a transcript of the case and they’ve sent me a form EX107. I’ve started filling it in but there’s a section asking about payment and invoicing details 🤷🏻‍♀️

I may be wrong, but isn't that because they charge you for an actual transcript?

MarkN88

More info here: https://www.gov.uk/apply-transcript-court-tribunal-hearing

lisathomas50

@markn88 you could say that you can't afford to pay 

MarkN88

lisathomas50 said:

@markn88 you could say that you can't afford to pay 

Ah right, that's good to know then, I wasn't sure so thought it would be best to just post the relevant link. 

BrettW

Saying that though Lisa doesn't necessarily mean they will agree to send one without it.

I'd say the fact they are even asking for a payment suggests you wont get one without paying the requested fee

JS69

I rang the courts to ask and the lady said you don’t need to pay for a statement of reason, so she suggested I fill it in and return it without filling in that part 

MarkN88

JS69 said:

I rang the courts to ask and the lady said you don’t need to pay for a statement of reason, so she suggested I fill it in and return it without filling in that part 

In that case it seems you have the wrong form, the EX107 form is for a transcript of the hearing, as I linked above, a statement of reasons is a totally different thing. 

BrettW

Thats good news then @JS69. Glad you've got it sorted. I wonder if the courts do take a fee if you fill that section in without querying it?

BrettW

I'm sure I read on another post recently that the Statement of Reason is written by the judge in their spare time so you might have to wait a while to receive it if I am remembering correctly

JS69

MarkN88 said:

JS69 said:

I rang the courts to ask and the lady said you don’t need to pay for a statement of reason, so she suggested I fill it in and return it without filling in that part 

In that case it seems you have the wrong form, the EX107 form is for a transcript of the hearing, as I linked above, a statement of reasons is a totally different thing. 

This is the form they sent me after emailing them asking for a statement of reason 🤷🏻‍♀️

lisathomas50

@BrettW on the link that is posted  it says if you cant afford it to give your reasons but it seans the person has the wrong form 

MarkN88

JS69 said:

MarkN88 said:

JS69 said:

I rang the courts to ask and the lady said you don’t need to pay for a statement of reason, so she suggested I fill it in and return it without filling in that part 

In that case it seems you have the wrong form, the EX107 form is for a transcript of the hearing, as I linked above, a statement of reasons is a totally different thing. 

This is the form they sent me after emailing them asking for a statement of reason 🤷🏻‍♀️

I would maybe query with them as it doesn’t seem right. 

BrettW

Sounds like whoever has processed your request has misunderstood what you were requesting from the court and has sent you a form to request a transcript of what was said rather than the statement of reasons. I'd do what Mark has suggested above and get back in touch with them rather than going through the process of sending in your application and waiting however long just to receive something that you didn't ask for in the first place.

JS69

Ok I will, I checked my sent emails and I definitely asked for a statement  of reasons 

mikehughescq

Okay, several people have led you up the garden path here. 

You need a statement of reasons and a record of proceedings. In order to get these there is no form. You simply write to HMCTS and ask for both items. Note that a record of proceedings is not the same as a transcript. You are not asking for, and do not need, a transcript. The ROP is the judges hand-written record of the hearing. It is not verbatim but it is what they would use to construct a statement of reasons after the hearing. 

Terrible idea to apply again. Repeat claims help no-one and deprive your son of arrears back to the original date of claim. If you just do what you’ve done with this claim then, put simply, you will get the same outcome so... no point. 

Far better to request the SOR and ROP and then get a WR0 to give them the once over to identify an error of law. It’s almost impossible for a tribunal to not err in law. It’s just knowing someone who can find it. Win at UT and you go back to FTT and have the opportunity to re-present the case in a different manner. There are undoubtedly points to be scored but it’s about giving detailed real world examples of actual incidents in a written submission at this point. 

It’s pointless to give up at this point as you have nothing to lose but 20 minutes, a stamp and an envelope to request an SOR and ROP.