PIP, DLA and AA
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Just had weird rejection letter for PIP

motorheadmotorhead Member Posts: 5 Listener

The letter awards me 8 points for daily living which should be enough to get the standard rate but they seem to be saying that because my problems aren’t expected to last long enough I can’t get it. Page 3 says “ Your difficulties with daily living started on 31 December 2020 and are likely to reduce so you will not meet the disability conditions on 31 December 2021.” Now my difficulties with daily living started long before 2020 and are expected to last well beyond 2021. I think that they are confusing my current mobility difficulties with my daily living difficulties. I was awarded 4 points for moving around due to breaking 3 metatarsals and displacing a big toe on 1st December 2020 (It looks like they got the exact date wrong as well). This has required 3 operations with maybe another in the autumn. This IS expected to get better so I can only think that this is where they get the “likely to reduce” from.

Has anyone heard of this sort of thing before – is it even possible?

While I’m on the subject, I might as well ask about the points I have been awarded for daily living. Since my previous award I’ve picked up 2 points for “preparing food” and another 2 for “dressing and undressing”. However, I’ve dropped 4 points for “engaging with other people face to face”. This doesn’t even seem to be a descriptor anymore. It seems to have become “mixing with other people”. Is this correct and if so when did it happen? Is there any actual difference between the 2 descriptors or is it a change in name only? At the bottom of page 2 it says that “You can engage with other people unaided” so I score 0 points. Now, as it happens, I can engage with other people unaided but the chances of it being successful are rather slim – less than 20%. So, does there have to be an element of success in the engagement anymore? Does a state of confusion and/or antagonism with a common result of being physically assaulted count as engaging?


Replies

  • ASDIBSASDIBS Member Posts: 68 Courageous
    I thought it'd used to be mixing with others and now it's engage face to face. Has it changed again?
  • motorheadmotorhead Member Posts: 5 Listener
    The letter referred to here, dated 9/4/21 says "mixing with other people". The last letter I have about my previous award is a notification of a successful tribunal appeal dated 4/2/19 and it says "engaging with other people face to face". Just looked at my PIP2VO form dated 25/2/20 ant it says "mixing with other people".
  • ASDIBSASDIBS Member Posts: 68 Courageous
    Strange. My son's old award said mixing with others but he's just received his new one today and it says engage face to face
  • motorheadmotorhead Member Posts: 5 Listener
    Just looked up https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria#daily-living-activities and it says "engaging with other people face to face". It's starting to seem that they don't know the difference themselves and use the 2 terms interchangeably.Maybe they even swap them about just to confuse people.
    What I can't seem to get any info on is whether unsuccessful engagements count as engagements. When I was originally awarded these 4 points back in 2016 ( when it was "engaging with other people face to face".) it was on the mandatory reconsideration stage and I think this was due to my lack of success in engaging with the DWP staff. For instance, I was using words like prosopagnosia and proprioception which they didn't understand but they didn't tell me about not understanding them. It was like they were kidding on that they understood but I couldn't tell that due to Theory of Mind deficiencies. This made it a long and tortuous process which they probably only endured because they were getting paid for it.
  • motorheadmotorhead Member Posts: 5 Listener
    When was your son's old award anyway?
  • Bob44Bob44 Member Posts: 4 Listener
    edited April 22
    They are a joke. I got refused 2 weeks ago so I asked for a MR last week and today I received £77.10 in my bank and it doesn't add up at all. they said in my assessment which I asked for a copy of that I seemed to understand to process and i was intelligent 😅  so in the letter I've written I've asked them if depression anxiety and lung disease only affects thick people!! Wonder what their response will be. Good luck to you in your fight. Power to the people 💪 
  • ASDIBSASDIBS Member Posts: 68 Courageous
    motorhead said:
    When was your son's old award anyway?
    My son's old award was 2017 and it was reviewed last year
  • ASDIBSASDIBS Member Posts: 68 Courageous
    My son has Asperger's and got 0 points for everything on his review. His MR also 0 for everything. He got awarded at tribunal yesterday. 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,998 Disability Gamechanger
    So, to deal with the original issue, the letter is saying that you don’t pass the forwards test. Absolutely legitimate. If not accurate then you challenge it via MR.

    To address the 2nd point. The engagement descriptor has always been worded as exactly that. The PIP2/AR1 form and decision letters confuse this by trying to simplify it and describing it as mixing. Mixing and engaging are entirely different concepts as case law has confirmed.
  • motorheadmotorhead Member Posts: 5 Listener
    Cheers Mike. Have you got any references on the case law? Also I'd be grateful of your opinion on what constitutes engagement ie does it need to be successful to count or does ending up being told to leave/shouted at/kicked/punched/financially abused count as being able to "engage with other people unaided"?

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,998 Disability Gamechanger
    Easily found at https://pipinfo.net/activities/engaging-with-other-people-face-to-face.

     motorhead said:
    does it need to be successful to count or does ending up being told to leave/shouted at/kicked/punched/financially abused count as being able to "engage with other people unaided"?

    Like every activity you have to be able to do it reliably and that will include to a reasonable standard. Clearly the above will not meet that standard. Nor is it engagement in any sense as it involves the exact opposite of the behaviour described in case law. Not my opinion. It’s the legal position and it’s definitive.
  • Ross_ScopeRoss_Scope Posts: 3,229

    Scope community team

    motorhead said:
    Cheers Mike. Have you got any references on the case law? Also I'd be grateful of your opinion on what constitutes engagement ie does it need to be successful to count or does ending up being told to leave/shouted at/kicked/punched/financially abused count as being able to "engage with other people unaided"?

    Hello @[email protected] and welcome to the community. 

    I'm sorry to read that you have experienced those things when trying to engage with others and apologies for asking about what must not be pleasant memories to recall, but has that happened numerous times? And were those things reported and dealt with when they happened?
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