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Award Length

Girl_No1Girl_No1 Member Posts: 107 Courageous
Hi everyone, hope we are all this evening?

I received my award last October, and it's for three years. 

Like everyone else I found the process stressful to the point of my (already very poor) mental health deteriorating further.  Thinking to the future, and going through this trying process again, I will request a ten-year/ongoing award next time due to the nature of my conditions. 

My question is:  is it possible to appeal the length of an award, without appealing the award itself?   If it is possible, is it advisable?   

Thanks.


Replies

  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,205 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi there 

    Yes you can appeal the award length only 
  • woodbinewoodbine Community Co-Production Group Posts: 4,535 Disability Gamechanger
    Yes you can but you can't request a ten year or ongoing award
    "Putting a child into care, isn't caring for a child" (T.Rhattigan)
  • chiariedschiarieds Community Co-Production Group Posts: 9,231 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @Girl_No1 - yes, you can appeal the award length only, which should not be detrimental to an appeal. Much as I don't like to disagree with @woodbine who gives excellent advice, there was a recent comment from Mike about this very thing. Please see: https://forum.scope.org.uk/discussion/81698/tribunal-next-friday-should-i-mention-to-tribunal-that-ive-got-an-appointment-to-see-a-specialist#latest    ...something I've seen him mention before. If you're condition isn't going to get better, then when you get a PIP review, this is definitely worth mentioning/arguing for.
  • Girl_No1Girl_No1 Member Posts: 107 Courageous
    Thanks everyone for replying.  It's definitely something for which I will argue at review.  Like everyone else, I've found these assessments take their toll physically and emotionally. 

    I had hoped my review would be done under Scottish legislation, but it appears Adult Disability Benefit roll-out has been delayed from 2023 to 2024 (covid delays) until after the date of my review.    :/
  • Girl_No1Girl_No1 Member Posts: 107 Courageous
    edited July 6
    @mikehughescq Hi, Mike - thanks for the link.  Sadly, I'm not subscribed to that site - not an advisor, can barely keep up with myself!  :) 

    Edit:  Just used the reference and got the judgement elsewhere!  Thanks, again.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,646 Disability Gamechanger
    edited July 6
    woodbine said:
    Yes you can but you can't request a ten year or ongoing award
    Why? Case law says you can and in any event I’ve been specifying in every care I’ve dealt with over the past 6 years. Never failed yet either.
  • chiariedschiarieds Community Co-Production Group Posts: 9,231 Disability Gamechanger
    Good for you @Girl_No1 - also just found Mike's rightsnet reference to this elsewhere, & was able to read it too. Not that I doubted him. :)
  • Girl_No1Girl_No1 Member Posts: 107 Courageous
    Just a wee update.  My partner and I have read (and re-read) the information provided by @mikehughescq.  I have today submitted an appeal based solely on the award duration.  I have "argued" for an ongoing award.  Now, all I have to do is put it out of my mind until a panel of strangers make a decision .....   :#
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,646 Disability Gamechanger
    I shall watch with interest. Hilariously DWP will likely produce an appeal submission which totally ignores your assertion that you just want to look at award length. It’s possible to panic when you read that. Don’t. It’s not your fault they didn’t know what they’re doing and don’t know the case law nor guidance. 

    Incidentally it’s a good idea to include the full case law as well as a copy of the guidance. It avoids an adjournment and leaves no room for doubt.
  • woodbinewoodbine Community Co-Production Group Posts: 4,535 Disability Gamechanger
    woodbine said:
    Yes you can but you can't request a ten year or ongoing award
    Why? Case law says you can and in any event I’ve been specifying in every care I’ve dealt with over the past 6 years. Never failed yet either.
    I bow to your superior knowledge Mike  B)
    "Putting a child into care, isn't caring for a child" (T.Rhattigan)
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,646 Disability Gamechanger
    And so you should  :)
  • Girl_No1Girl_No1 Member Posts: 107 Courageous
    I shall watch with interest. Hilariously DWP will likely produce an appeal submission which totally ignores your assertion that you just want to look at award length. It’s possible to panic when you read that. Don’t. It’s not your fault they didn’t know what they’re doing and don’t know the case law nor guidance. 

    Incidentally it’s a good idea to include the full case law as well as a copy of the guidance. It avoids an adjournment and leaves no room for doubt.
    .... and this is why I'm immediately regretting submitting the appeal .... :p 

    To be fair, I've submitted what is probably the most amateurish submission they will have ever seen.  However, I can only speak to what I know, and what I know is:  me and my conditions.

    I have not included case law or guidance of any description.  I outlined my situation, the duration and nature of my condition, asked upon what basis they decided the award duration, and asked if the panel members would be inclined to consider an ongoing award would be more appropriate given the circumstances.

    I'm most probably, as they say, on a hiding to nothing.  In fact I'm confident appeals on the same/similar basis to mine are received in their hundreds on a daily basis.  I doubt anything I've submitted or even, if I'm fortunate, achieve will be groundbreaking. 

    In spite of all that, and in terms of self-esteem, it is something I felt I should do - stand up for myself and ask for something I believe is appropriate to my situation. 

    We'll see ..... :) 

  • chiariedschiarieds Community Co-Production Group Posts: 9,231 Disability Gamechanger
    Please don't regret what you have asked for @Girl_No1 - you felt the question should be asked describing the length & nature of your health conditions; have some confidence with this, & certainly Mike's comments. I don't know if you can add the relevant case law & a copy of the guidance, but hope this can be done in time if needed; I can't see why not. I somewhat doubt that hundreds of such appeals are received daily, as unfortunately many probably don't ask for fear it erroneously might affect their current award.
  • Girl_No1Girl_No1 Member Posts: 107 Courageous
    @chiarieds thank you so much for your kind words/thoughts.  I'll sleep on it, and discuss it with my partner tomorrow.   I guess it would make sense, as suggested by Mike, to submit case law/guidance info, but I'd struggle to speak with confidence to those.   Whereas I could speak forever about my lived experience.  :)   Thanks again.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,646 Disability Gamechanger
    edited July 9
    You won’t be needing to speak to either document. You put them in and they speak for themselves. You absolutely don’t want to get into your conditions and how they impact you because you’re then inviting them to look at the whole award, which is the exact opposite of what you presumably want. Your argument is simple:

    1 - you are happy with all aspects of your award bar the award length.
    2 - the case law shows you can appeal just the award length.
    3 - the guidance suggests an ongoing award is appropriate in your case. Instead DWP plucked a random end date out of the air. 
    4 - your medical professionals won’t be reviewing you on the same time scale as DWP so on what basis know better than your medical professionals that something will have changed on the review date they’ve invented?
    5 - if DWP have some medical or other 

    That’s all you need. No more, no less. You have no choice but to include the case law and guidance though. DWP won’t be putting them in and those two items are your case. Without them the tribunal are unlikely to have anything to guide them to the right decision. It’s not a thing to discuss with your husband or anyone else. It’s the basis of your case and makes it winnable inside 10 to 15 minutes. Possibly less. Last one I did took 5.
  • Girl_No1Girl_No1 Member Posts: 107 Courageous
    @mikehughescq I am a great admirer of the forthright manner in which you respond to posters on this forum, based on your depth/breadth of knowledge and experience in these matters. 

    However, (and there's always a "however", eh? :) ) those of us lacking that knowledge/experience and who are unable to secure "professional" representation just have to do the best we can with whatever resources we have available to us.

    Depending on our conditions, I expect it's easier for some than others to be able to identify/utilise case law and paragraphs from the DWP guidance.  Unfortunately for me I'm not in the group who finds this easy/straightforward.  Therefore, have simply made the best effort I can, albeit based on your response I'm making a pig's ear of it and it will only get worse! :/

    Please do not interpret this response as to mean I'm fishing to be hand-fed appropriate legislation etc.  It is not that.  It is an opportunity to balance your indepth knowledge/ experience with the reality of those unable to secure representation and who struggle to source, use and, more importantly, understand(!) the implications of case law etc.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,646 Disability Gamechanger
    There’s nothing complex here. Go to the decision I linked to; print it off; post it. 

    Ditto DWP PIP award length guidance, which can be found at https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/?ACT=39&fid=2&aid=1742_466wd9TUusZz4qD5JKyd&board_id=1. Print and post. 

    You’re seeing complexity where there is none. Print both documents and post them so they become part of your appeals papers. As I’ve already said, you don’t need to understand or speak to them, although the guidance is really straightforward, You can put my 5 points in writing as is. There is then nothing to be done on the fay at all. It’s simply all there in front of them. 

    My 5th point seems to have lost the latter half of the sentence. So, what the 5 points should have said is…

    1 - you are happy with all aspects of your award bar the award length.
    2 - the case law shows you can appeal just the award length.
    3 - the guidance suggests an ongoing award is appropriate in your case. Instead DWP plucked a random end date out of the air. 
    4 - your medical professionals won’t be reviewing you on the same time scale as DWP so on what basis know better than your medical professionals that something will have changed on the review date they’ve invented?
    5 - if DWP have some medical or other evidence which explicitly suggests your current review date then now is the time for them to produce it. They won’t be able to. 

  • Girl_No1Girl_No1 Member Posts: 107 Courageous
    @mikehughescq over-complicating matters is at the very core of my underlying condition! :/  

    I am genuinely appreciative of your help in this matter .... as I'm sure many other posters have been and will be in future.  :) 
  • chiariedschiarieds Community Co-Production Group Posts: 9,231 Disability Gamechanger
    edited July 10
    In case you've lost the link to the case law (as neither of us could read from the rightsnet site), here it is: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5c6e86fc40f0b647ac8db29c/CPIP_1057_2018-00.pdf
    Para 11 says, '......a claimant may bring an appeal to a tribunal even if that claimant is only challenging the decision to fix a term or is only challenging the length of an award.'
    Do please send this off together with the DWP Award length guidance Mike has linked to to give yourself the very best chance. As Mike says, it's the basis of your case. Not forgetting his 5 points. :)
  • Girl_No1Girl_No1 Member Posts: 107 Courageous
    @chiarieds Cheers, m'dear! 

    With your and Mike's help, I'm on the way!!  Will keep you updated.  Again, thanks.  :) 
  • chiariedschiarieds Community Co-Production Group Posts: 9,231 Disability Gamechanger
    Mike is the one that helps, tho as he knows I read all his links in order to try & learn more. Hopefully some of it sinks in!! I do read everything, but it's not as easy for some of us lesser mortals to remember. :) Thank you, I do hope you keep us all kindly updated. You can do this.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,646 Disability Gamechanger
    Ooh, not sure I need elevating in any way. I’m just some one who’s done this stuff for a long time.
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