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Case law for ‘planning a journey descriptor’

vixen_5053vixen_5053 Member Posts: 32 Listener
Hi,

Does anybody have the link for the document in case law for the ‘planning a journey’ descriptor for PIP mobility?

It would be much appreciated as I am going to send it with my MR request after receiving 0 points for this.

 Thanks.

Replies

  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,615 Disability Gamechanger
    There is not a document. Case law is individual cases. Multiple documents. As many or as few as you need. You need to look up those which relate to the issue you wish to highlight. However, not a great approach to an MR. DWP will be applying the law as described in their guidance. Their guidance often wholly misinterprets the law as is but it’s unlikely anything like that caused your refusal. That will be for lack of evidence. What’s the basis of your argument?
  • vixen_5053vixen_5053 Member Posts: 32 Listener
    Okay no problem.

    I suffer with severe depression, anxiety and agoraphobia. I gave examples in my form what happened the last time it went out as it causes me severe overwhelming distress to a point where I’m not able to cope, I haven’t been out since December for my MRI appointment. 

    At this appointment. I had a severe panic attack and collapsed on the street outside the hospital, as I realised that people were looking at me, judging me and wanting to kill me. I was trying to hit people who were trying to help me as I thought they were trying to harm me and judge me. I wasn’t able to cope. My sister had to cover me with an umbrella and finally got me into her car after a half hour on the floor encouraging me.

    I had a failed suicide attempt that night. Didn’t leave my bedroom for over a week after as I didn’t feel safe as it is my safe zone. Family had to keep a constant watch over me as I was in a very vulnerable state.

    That was very hard to write that out all over again, feel like I am re-living it. I would appreciate your views and if you think I should have been awarded any points and what is the best way to get these points across.

     Thanks.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,615 Disability Gamechanger
    Not straightforward. Take a look here

    What you’ve described is an incident which has nothing to do with planning or following. 
  • vixen_5053vixen_5053 Member Posts: 32 Listener
    Sorry forgot to include I had to be encouraged by my family for 2 weeks before the appointment to go on the journey to the hospital as even the thought of going out causes me to panic and causes psychological distress.

    I have declined all face to face appointments after this as I can’t face the prospect of going out on any journey as it was cause me overwhelming psychological distress.

    any help would be much appreciated.

  • charlotte84charlotte84 Member Posts: 49 Connected
    @vixen_5053 I don’t understand I would of thought you’d have got 10 points for this question. As mike said 
    “What you’ve described is an incident which has nothing to do with planning or following.”
    in my eyes it does have something to do with it? You can’t plan and follow a journey due to the distress it causes you.! This is what it says on pipinfo.net 
    1. Cannot undertake any journey because it would cause overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant. 10 points So shouldn’t you of got 10points? 
  • charlotte84charlotte84 Member Posts: 49 Connected
    @vixen_5053 did you send any evidence into the dwp regarding your depression/Anxiety/agoraphobia x
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,615 Disability Gamechanger
    “Cannot undertake any journey”. And yet what was described was a journey. 
  • vixen_5053vixen_5053 Member Posts: 32 Listener
    Yes I did submit evidence regarding my conditions affecting this descriptor.

    I have already submitted my MR, which I clearly pointed out that I feel I should have been awarded 10 points due to the fact that I can’t undertake any journey due to it causing me overwhelming psychological distress. I also wrote in the MR the most recent incident I attempted this, which was December 2020, when I had my MRI appointment. I would like to send in something, like case law, to clarify this point and show the DWP that I won’t be backing down in my fight to get the points and award I believe I am entitled to.

    I agree @charlotte84, that this does have something to do with attempting to undertake a journey.

    @mikehughescq, I appreciate your input but from reading the descriptor on this and from the information and links you provided, I believe this incident is due to attempting to undertake a journey, which is exactly what happened and what I attempted to do. In doing so, after attempting to undertake this journey, it caused me overwhelming psychological distress to a point I couldn’t cope or function as I normally would. It also left me mentally unstable for a considerable amount of time after.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but due to the nature of my conditions. this journey wasn’t completed safely, reliably or in a timely manner so surely I should have been awarded the 10 points as described.

    Thanks.
  • vixen_5053vixen_5053 Member Posts: 32 Listener
    edited July 10
    Also, for the DWP to clarify that a claimant cannot undertake any journey without it causing overwhelming psychological distress, surely the activity would have to be attempted once, at least, so they can paint a picture whether or not the claimant can be awarded any points?
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,615 Disability Gamechanger
    I fear you’ve missed my point. If you’re trying to score on a descriptor because you can’t do it reliably then focusing your description on a journey undertaken is absolutely fine but needs to be outnumbered by detailed descriptions of multiple incidents where you couldn’t do it at all. You don’t appear to have done that. Quoting caselaw is fine - [2016] UKUT 531 (AAC) CPIP/1347/2015 seems the obvious one here - but case law doesn’t win cases unless the specific legal point is pivotal. What you’re arguing here is not a precedent. It doesn’t require case law. The position is not unique. Using case law to make the point you’re not backing down doesn’t really work. It’s useless in that respect. What reinforces your case here is the anecdotal evidence you don’t appear to have provided.
  • charlotte84charlotte84 Member Posts: 49 Connected
    @mikehughescq
    So you said “Cannot undertake ANY journey”. And yet what was described WAS a journey. I understand that now so for instance would Descriptor C or D of the question planning and following a journey be more of an award in your opinion. If you understand what I mean. Sorry if I’ve worded it wrong 
  • Beesmummy798Beesmummy798 Member Posts: 71 Courageous
    edited July 10
    pip-assessment-criteria-equality-analysis.pdf
  • Beesmummy798Beesmummy798 Member Posts: 71 Courageous
    edited July 10
    Sorry couldn't upload x
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,615 Disability Gamechanger
    @mikehughescq
    So you said “Cannot undertake ANY journey”. And yet what was described WAS a journey. I understand that now so for instance would Descriptor C or D of the question planning and following a journey be more of an award in your opinion. If you understand what I mean. Sorry if I’ve worded it wrong 
    You’ve said nothing here to suggest they would be. The issue is your evidence not which descriptor.
  • vixen_5053vixen_5053 Member Posts: 32 Listener
    What I described In the incident surely was something to do with a journey? My own ancedotal evidence in my own words, do you not think that is sufficient evidence?

    I did have my Sister with me who had to help me complete the journey reliably, the journey also caused me overwhelming psychological distress.

    So in your opinion, on the information provided, what descriptor would you best say fits this activity in my situation? 

    I’ve already scored 10 points on the moving around descriptor so I only need 2 more points to entitle me to enhanced mobility, which I believe I deserve.

    Would it be best pushing for the 10-12 points I believe I should be awarded, as I only need 2 more points?

     Thanks 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,615 Disability Gamechanger
    You don’t decide which descriptor based on the amount of points you fancy. You decide based on which one you best fit. Please read this again. It tells you exactly what the issue is from my perspective. I have highlighted the key bits in bold.

    mikehughescq said:
    I fear you’ve missed my point. If you’re trying to score on a descriptor because you can’t do it reliably then focusing your description on a journey undertaken is absolutely fine but needs to be outnumbered by detailed descriptions of multiple incidents where you couldn’t do it at all. You don’t appear to have done that. Quoting caselaw is fine - [2016] UKUT 531 (AAC) CPIP/1347/2015 seems the obvious one here - but case law doesn’t win cases unless the specific legal point is pivotal. What you’re arguing here is not a precedent. It doesn’t require case law. The position is not unique. Using case law to make the point you’re not backing down doesn’t really work. It’s useless in that respect. What reinforces your case here is the anecdotal evidence you don’t appear to have provided.

  • vixen_5053vixen_5053 Member Posts: 32 Listener
    Okay thank you.

    So it would be best to send more of my own evidence of times I have attempted a journey? And focus more on the one descriptor that I think I most strongly fit?

    also is there anything else you think would be best to include with my MR?
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,615 Disability Gamechanger
    Yes. 

    No. An MR is a look again. You often don’t need new evidence for it to succeed. You di need to understand that anecdotal evidence is key.
  • vixen_5053vixen_5053 Member Posts: 32 Listener
    Okay thank you.

     I have already submitted my MR with a very detailed example of the last time I attempted to go out. Is it worth writing another detailed example and sending it in? As it’s been 2 weeks since I sent my MR.
  • sandyp196sandyp196 Member Posts: 140 Pioneering
    I just won my case under the case law for planning journeys. I have agarophobia and cptsd.
    I was given a score of 4 points on my 2018 assesment so didnt qualify for the mobility element. 
    The reasons given by the dwp were odd. 
    I was told by the decision maker that she acknowledged i had severe agarophobia and social difficulties but she decided i didnt need thr mobility element because i never left my house.
    I argued a little that this didnt take account of the expenses i had with trying to get what i need from shops and services when i cant do it myself.  
    Plus ofc i am support by CMHT and one of the conditions of therapy for agarophobia is a commitment to engage in exposure therapy. 
    So at the time of the assessment i was mentally not well enough for exposure work. I.e accompanied trips out, supported public transport exposure etc. 
    Thr dwp seem to view agarophobia in very black and white terms. 
    Telling me i did not need the mobility element of pip because i was too unwell with agarophobia to leave my house was confusing but i accepted it.
    When my 2018 assessement got to the desk of the leap time they phoned my mental health team that day asking for details about my illness and support. I am still housebound as covid put a stop to exposure therapy, so after the reasons dwp gave for not awarding me i wasnt hopeful. 
    Less than an hour later they rang back my MH worker and said they had decided my 2018 assessment was innacurately scored under planning journeys and they were adding points to take me from 4 to 12 and awarding me enhanced mobility to be backdated. Thry also extended my current claim for 3 years at the enhanced rate. 

    It is possible to have an award changed under the new case law but you should make it a seperate request. Dont put it in with your MR. The leap excercise is very behind schedule due to covid. It can take a while for your case to even be looked at. 
    Also your current claim wouldnt be considered under the leap review. They are only  looking at any assessments that were carried out before june 2018.



  • charlotte84charlotte84 Member Posts: 49 Connected
    Can I ask please what a case law is. Thankyou 
  • calcotticalcotti Member Posts: 2,196 Pioneering
    Can I ask please what a case law is. Thankyou 
    Case law is interpretation of the law arising from previous tribunal decisions.
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • charlotte84charlotte84 Member Posts: 49 Connected
    @calcotti so does it mean that you would of had to of gone to tribunal before you do a case law x
  • sandyp196sandyp196 Member Posts: 140 Pioneering
    @calcotti so does it mean that you would of had to of gone to tribunal before you do a case law x
    No tribunal wins are excluded from a review under the case law for mental health. You can still request to be reviewed on previous assessments, just if you won at teibunal the dwp wont automatically review you under the case law. You have to specifically request it. This is as far as i know. The info i have picked up during my own leap review journey. Im not an expert. CAB know lots about the case law. 
  • calcotticalcotti Member Posts: 2,196 Pioneering
    Not sure what you mean by 'do a case law'. The law is simply what is written down in the regulations as enacted by parliament. However the words then have to be interpreted because there is always ambiguity in language (more so if the regulations are badly written in the fist lace). The role of the tribunal service is to decide what the law means and tribunal decisions once made then set precedent for the future interpretation of the law. 
    Information I post is for England unless otherwise stated. Rules may be different in other parts of UK.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,615 Disability Gamechanger
    Okay thank you.

     I have already submitted my MR with a very detailed example of the last time I attempted to go out. Is it worth writing another detailed example and sending it in? As it’s been 2 weeks since I sent my MR.
    Entirely up to you, but I always think 2 examples over activity is the bare minimum which should be on a PIP2.
  • vixen_5053vixen_5053 Member Posts: 32 Listener
    Okay. Thanks very much for your input. Will keep you all updated with the outcome of the MR.
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