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Moving Around Descriptor Help

PIPnewbie

From the moment my girlfriend stands her SI joint and lumbar spine burn and has a dull ache too.

She has ankylosing spondylitis and had to buy a seated walker so that she can stop and sit to take weight off of her SI joint and spine.

With the "Moving Around" descriptor are the distances for when the pain starts and it makes her want to stop (but she carries on and pushes through) or when she has to stop and rest because the pain is just unbearable?

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PIPnewbie

Username_removed said:

None of the above. The distance she can walk reliably.

https://pipinfo.net/issues/reliably

Thanks for the help. But how can needing to stop and sit on her walker to rest her back not be relevant, i.e. none of the above? She tries to push through the pain and then it's stumbling around for her, and without her walker she would be on her knees. Surely that is pertinent to "reliably"?

PIPnewbie

Username_removed said:

Please read the definition of reliably. Stopping is relevant to “reasonable time”.

So reliably encapsulates safely, repeatedly, and within a reasonable time? If any of those are not met then it fits the definition of “not reliably”?

That is, when she has to stop from the pain, that is the distance she can walk reliably?

PIPnewbie

Username_removed said:

No, you can’t simplify it like that. In order to establish the distance which can be walked reliably you need to look at whether the distance covered was covered in a reasonable time. You also need to look at whether that distance covered could be repeated, for example, back home or again in full the same day. Pain comes into “reasonable standard” but unlike DLA where any walking in actual pain is disregarded the case law for PIP is as yet a little less clear cut.

Well how about this...

Her ankylosing spondylitis is getting worse so she’s bought a seated walker so she can lean on it when walking but then sit down when her SI joint, lumbar spine, and hips burn. She’s explained it to me like it starts in her SI joint and then moves to her lumbar spine and hips, and feels like the pain and burning encapsulates her torso and her feet go numbish and her legs feel wobbly and she gets an overwhelming urge to sit down.

She said it also affects her brain where she’s trying to hold herself together and not cry which in turn makes her chest tight as she stops herself from crying.

Her rheumatologist thinks she’ll be using a wheelchair within a few years (even though I know that doesn’t affect this claim right now).

On the form she put down 30-50 metres because she parks near the entrance of supermarkets or superstores where she goes with her nan and they are all within 30-50 metres and she gets all the above when she reaches the store entrances. Before the walker she used trolleys for support and had to stop very often to lean on the trolley but now sits on her seated walker to pause.

PIPnewbie

Username_removed said:

None of the above really says anything. The PIP descriptor in question is about physical mobility. How losing mobility impacts your brain is neither here nor there. The last paragraph says nothing about reliability.

I suggest you start with https://pipinfo.net/activities/moving-around and get to grips with the basics of PIP.

I’m not trying to sound ungrateful for the help, because I always am. But your link leads to a paragraph that says, “ Activity 2 considers a claimant’s physical ability to move around without severe discomfort, such as breathlessness, pain or fatigue.”

As I explained, once she has moved 30 metres, in general, her spine causes such discomfort her legs start giving out. She has to then rest by sitting, and can’t move any further for a minute or so without wanting to trip over.

What is seemingly glaringly obvious yet is apparently eluding me?

edit: And just to add, the moment she stands her spine and SI joint are already burning and throbbing, it’s just after said short walk, her legs start making her stumble.

PIPnewbie

Username_removed said:

Well for starters you’re referencing the guidance whereas years of case law have made it clear pain and severe discomfort are not the same thing at all. Your original post talked about pain. PIPnewbie said:

With the "Moving Around" descriptor are the distances for when the pain starts and it makes her want to stop (but she carries on and pushes through) or when she has to stop and rest because the pain is just unbearable?

You need to be crystal clear about what is severe discomfort and what is pain. Your descriptions of what happens when she walks need to be precise and detailed. I’m not especially seeing an issue but you need more detailed descriptions of what happens; how it manifests and where it impacts and so on. You need to make your description of the mobility irrefutable rather than starting from an assumption that it ought to be relatively obvious. None of it is obvious unless you spell it out.

So don’t use the term pain in the assessment? What do they consider worse, severe discomfort or pain?

I should have been more detailed, but I see what you mean, she will need to be crystal clear with the assessor, about what happens, where the discomfort is, what it causes to happen, etc.

PIPnewbie

Username_removed said:

I’ve not said that. You are hideously overcomplicating this. Where there is pain describe it in detail. What it is. Where it starts. What triggers it. How or manifests. Whether it spreads or worsens or both. What eases it. Where there is severe discomfort… same. DMs will assume that any pain you walk through is not really pain but just discomfort and not even severe discomfort at that. You need to meet such assumptions head on.

Thanks. This will come in handy for her assessment next week! I understand now.

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