Pension Credit what could happen next?

racyguy

As I have said earlier the DWP have now closed my claim down but are still wanting to know what my income was for the past two years.
Admittingly I believe that there might be a small overpayment of benefit, maybe a £100 or so. I am not putting myself through the work that they are expecting from me (copies of bank statements, schedules of what my private pensions have been on a monthly basis, even down to a £1 Premium Bond that was bought for me in 1950 from which I have never won anything) 
As I do not now have a live claim and have no intention of starting up a new one despite the loss of £50 a week payment plus all of the other financial advantages such as no Council Tax rebate etc, what is the very worst that they can do to me?  

racyguy

woodbine said:

Well they will demand repayment of the overpayment and rightly so, I don't see why you think you have a choice in providing what they have asked for how can they work out the overpayment is £100 or £1000 if you don't.?

There could be a civil penalty but only if fraud was involved.

I agree entirely and have already said that I will pay it subject to their calculations being correct. A civil penalty is possible, I had one of those for the previous overpayment which the DWP could not collect. If I do have to pay one then that will be more than offset against the effort that I will have to put in to get the information they are asking for. Obviously I will tell them that I not not in any fit state to do that amount of work due to health reasons. No fraud is involved it is just a case of mentally and physically finding it hard to comply with their demands that I should notify them throughout the year if my income from any of it's sources increases more than 10p.(every monthly payment varies by 5p in the amount of tax that is taken off the many private pensions.)
So the worst that they can do is fine me? I presume prison is not an option they have or maybe a prosecution in the Magistrates Court?
 

racyguy

Username_removed said:

 However, you are about to pile and on penalty onto admin penalty if you not only don’t declare but then don’t co-operate. You will double your debt the first time you do this and increase it further the more you do it. I very much doubt that extra debt will offset the effort of simply telling them.

Plenty of reasons that debt can go up exponentially if you don’t co-operate. See https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/398189/penalties-policy.pdf

As explained before I believe that I have carried out my responsibilities of informing the DWP of a change of circumstance. I send them, every year, the pension providers' notification of what the forthcoming pension payments will be (gross) as well as the year end P60's to show what tax had been deducted from those pensions at the year end.
What they are now asking is so over the top that due to both physical and mental health issues it is difficult for me to comply.
Having already had the above documents they are demanding that I get monthly 'payslips' which I never receive) for the 6 pensions over the past 2 years. A total of 144 payslips from 6 different companies.
Then they also want bank statements cover the previous 2 years for two accounts that are joint (current and savings) along with those account solely in my wife's name (current and two savings accounts)
In addition they want sight of a £1 premium bond that was bought for me in 1950 ( I have no idea what the reference number is or at what address it was last registered at )
There certainly is no question of exceeding the capital limits (£10,000). At best guess our total capital level has never exceeded £6000 across all of the accounts.

Surely I cannot be the only person who finds this level of work difficult due to health issues? If I am, how do others cope? Is it normal for the DWP in a Compliance Review to request this level of information?
The DWP do have the resources by contacting HMRC for pension payments on a weekly/monthly basis and are able to contact the banks for statements. 


 

racyguy

I should also have mentioned that this week is the 4th time of not receiving my £50 Pension Credit payment. As the DWP have closed down the claim and when they eventually realise that the amount of overpaid benefit amounts to less that say £60 and realise that my pension credit should be £49 a week would they (a) deduct the overpayment out of the 'missing' payments and (b) pay me the rest of the lost payments?

poppy123456

Your claim was closed because you didn't send them what they asked for, so there's nothing further for them to pay you from the date your claim ended. If there's any overpayment you will need to arrange to pay that back.

racyguy

poppy123456 said:

Your claim was closed because you didn't send them what they asked for, so there's nothing further for them to pay you from the date your claim ended. If there's any overpayment you will need to arrange to pay that back.

But what happens to the money that they should still be paying me? Do I just lose it all?
That's what I thought would be the answer. I have just been reading that it is estimated by AgeUK that 50% (360,000) of couples and that single pensioners 37% (840,000) are not claiming their entitlement to Pension Credit. I really do wonder why given the experience that I am going through.
Make that 360,001 now.

racyguy

Everything that I have been reading on websites says that they should have simply put a halt on further payments and not terminated the claim.

poppy123456

If your claim has closed then you'll need ro reclaim. Only they can tell you whether it's closed or suspended.  I thought in a previous comment you said you weren't going to claim again.

racyguy

poppy123456 said:

If your claim has closed then you'll need ro reclaim. Only they can tell you whether it's closed or suspended.  I thought in a previous comment you said you weren't going to claim again.

The DWP wrote to me to say that the claim had been closed. Apparently they should have said that it had been suspended instead. No I am not going to continue with any claim for Pension Credit in the future. I would think that most people would agree with me given what is being said about having to notify them if an income source in one month was either 10p greater or lesser than before. Can you imagine how many letters a year I would have to send them as well as getting a 'payslip' to prove the difference from each company as well as bank statements that shows the reduction/increase?
I feel like I am in the middle of a tv farce programme.

poppy123456

I agree that is a little extreme. If the claim is now closed there won't be any money to owe you, as advised.

racyguy

poppy123456 said:

I agree that is a little extreme. If the claim is now closed there won't be any money to owe you, as advised.

It certainly is extreme.
I agree, no claim, no money. I am happy with that and not having the Pension Service breathing down my neck every month. However this comes at a price of losing my 100% Council Tax benefit (it was previously given on the back of the Pension Credit award according to the Council) . So now the next problem is trying work out how I am going to be able to pay the Council £40 a week out of a £50 a week reduced income. Still these things come to try you.

calcotti

racyguy said: ... this comes at a price of losing my 100% Council Tax benefit ..

You don’t necessarily lose the Council Tax Reduction. What you lose is automatic entitlement. If you provide full details of your income and capital to your local authority they will calculate what entitlement to CTR you have (quite possibly still 100%).

racyguy

Username_removed said:

It is correct to say that a failure to supply evidence in connection with a claim should lead to a suspension not a closure but that’s generally at the outset of a claim. 

Once a claim is live they can suspend if a question arises about entitlement. Once that question is resolved payment either resumes or ends. As you were asked to supply information to aid with that resolution and did not do so they have legitimately closed the claim. 

What you ought to have done is challenged the reasonableness of the request for information as they can only request information which could be reasonably obtained within a reasonable time. As the claim is now closed that becomes exponentially harder. You could do a late MR but PC will likely argue you’re trying to MR a decision to close rather than the decision to request the specific info. They will likely be wrong but you will have a fight on your hands in which you will likely have to head to tribunal. 

At some point the penny will drop that just writing back and saying what you could and could not provide and why would have likely kept the claim open and saved all this hassle. 

You are also correct in saying that take-up of Pension Credit is low. It’s an area I have some expertise in and I can assure you that the scenario you describe is not one of the reasons why. Your scenario could have been wholly avoided by seeking advice at the appropriate juncture. 

As it is, claim over. As PC decide to pursue a recoverable overpayment you would, ironically, need to provide exactly the info. you have decided to not provide and each time you fail to do so another admin. penalty. 

That's something.
I had no idea that I could have challenged their request as being reasonable given the health issues.
I will certainly cover myself and put in a MR on that basis. If it does end up at a Tribunal then I will let the court have all of the relevant evidence of health and consequential inabilities. Tribunals don't worry me at all.
It looks to me that the best way for me is to do the MR and then if they decide to request the info again, tell them that they are being unreasonable in their request not just because I will find it difficult but that they surely cannot expect all of the payslips and bank statements within the same period of time which was 30 days? I will eventually be in the hands of the Post Office as well as how fast the companies will act. As for the £1 Premium Bond I have no information about it. The last time I saw the small counterfoil was when I moved into my own place 50 years ago!
Thankyou for the advice 

racyguy

calcotti said:

racyguy said: ... this comes at a price of losing my 100% Council Tax benefit ..

You don’t necessarily lose the Council Tax Reduction. What you lose is automatic entitlement. If you provide full details of your income and capital to your local authority they will calculate what entitlement to CTR you have (quite possibly still 100%).

Well something else I have learned although the council did not explain it that way to me.
Sorry but I must laugh, not at you or your comments but at what the council will want from me.
If I was able to get hold of and had all of that information then it would have been sent to the Pension Service in the first place. Then, and I presume that the council would work like the Pension Service and want me to tell them of all of the changes as they happen even if it is 10p along with the same documentary evidence, weekly/monthly bank statements, monthly payslips etc ?

It was the council way back in time (2011) that kept pestering me to claim Pension Credit as the figures that they were using clearly showed that I was entitled. 

calcotti

racyguy said: Well something else I have learned although the council did not explain it that way to me.

The one situation in which not getting Pension Credit will make all the difference is if you have capital over £16,000. If you do that would exclude you from getting Council Tax Reduction unless you get guarantee Pension Credit (in which case your capital is ignored).

racyguy

calcotti said:

racyguy said: Well something else I have learned although the council did not explain it that way to me.

The one situation in which not getting Pension Credit will make all the difference is if you have capital over £16,000. If you do that would exclude you from getting Council Tax Reduction unless you get guarantee Pension Credit (in which case your capital is ignored).

I'm not in that bracket. At the moment savings stand at just over £800 which includes the £1 Premium Bond!

racyguy

Username_removed said:

Not sure what you mean about doing an MR based on health issues. Your only argument is that the evidence request itself and the time-scale was not reasonable. Health doesn’t come into that. Needs to be understood that now the claim is closed this is a very long shot. 

Interested to note your Council encouraged a PC claim. Few did. Mind if I ask which? I’ll understand if you don’t wish to disclose. 

Thanks & noted

racyguy

UPDATE

Had another missive today from the Pension Service -DWP Jobcentre politely asking me to fill out two consent forms so as to allow them to ask our banks to send them copies of the bank statements going back to 2019 
They, the Pension Service, are being very nice about it!
As I no longer have a live Pension Credit claim in place why are they asking my permission to access our banks? I can fully understand if they had come up with an overpayment figure way above what is due and then leave it to me to either pay it or appeal it. By appealing it it would be my responsibility to prove that their estimated figures are wrong by my having to send them printed copies of the statements as evidence.
Most surprised that threatening letters have not yet been sent in accordance with what Mike [removed by moderator] said would happen - fines on top of fines on top of fines for not co-operating with them.
As I have said before I now have a quiet and stress free life without the Pension Service continually hounding me. 

racyguy

Teddybear12 said:

Hi @racyguy The DWP Pension Service are not going to let this be. At some stage you are going to have to supply what they are asking for.

They obviously have the option to get the relevant bank statements themselves direct?
Will wait and see what the next development is.
For the first time I have felt relieved after 12 years of non stop aggravation from them. First claim made 2010 terminated by them in 2012 resulting in a Tribunal hearing - lost. New claim made 2013 with an investigation in 2019 (2016 to 2019) - went to a Tribunal and won September 2021 - they could not collect the £500 overpayment. October 2021 another investigation started resulting in my cancelling the claim but still hounding me for the period 2019 to 2021.

poppy123456

racyguy said:

Teddybear12 said:

Hi @racyguy The DWP Pension Service are not going to let this be. At some stage you are going to have to supply what they are asking for.

 October 2021 another investigation started resulting in my cancelling the claim but still hounding me for the period 2019 to 2021.

They will continue to do so until you send them what they've requested from you.

racyguy

poppy123456 said:

They will continue to do so until you send them what they've requested from you.

I'm fully aware of what they may do having had the same experiences over the past 12 years.
The question really is what are they allowed to do?
The amount involved as a potential over payment would amount to under £100. But then I would claim a set off for having had the Pension Credit being reduced by £1 a week for having a non existing excess of savings over £10,000 since September 2020.
At worst case scenario that would result in a net overpayment for the period of £35!
Would they want to escalate the issue to a full blown fraud case - I don't think so.
On the alternative they are actually saving £50 a week that they should be paying me if I had a live claim.