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We want to hear from you: please tell us about your experience of the online community.

PIP Tribunal and advice welcomed!

Fantastico

Hello all, I'm new on here but could really do with some advice regarding Personal Independence Payment. I have arthritis in both my knees and ankles, which heavily affects my mobility and causes me severe chronic pain when moving about or doing daily tasks. Unfortunately, this has also led me to have depression since my early teens.

Basically, I applied for PIP in late October of last year, after many weeks I finally had an assessment which I wasn't particularly pleased with for numerous reasons. From issues with communication (masks were required and it was hard to understand each other) and the assessment lasted at most 10 minutes, not to mention I was rather anxious about the whole thing. Anyway, I felt pretty crappy after the assessment, like I wasn't taken seriously. Looking back there were a lot of the PIP processes and descriptors that I struggled to understand and sadly I wasn't able to really get any help from the likes of Citizens Advice (despite trying to get through to them for over two weeks) or otherwise so did it all myself. The whole process felt overwhelming to me.

Eventually, I got my decision letter back and missed out on both care and mobility. I got 6 in care and only 4 in mobility. I was somewhat surprised by this due to my severe limitations and after taking a week or so to clear my head, I did begin to wonder if it was due to the way I had filled out the form and that I hadn't been as clear as I could have been so went through with the Reconsideration. This time sent them a bunch of extra information including a diary of my days and the difficulties I have and the help I need (dressing, food, etc). Finally got my reconsideration letter back this past week and nothing has changed. In the explanation, they emphasized the fact that PIP is scored depending on what you can and cannot do which I found odd as I already knew that and tried to explain myself better when completing the MR.

At this point, the only option I have is the appeal through the tribunal which scares me. The whole process has already been daunting enough and I've felt like I haven't been listened to at all. I really don't know if I should go through with the tribunal, it most likely won't be of any help anyway given how things have gone so far. I'm not sure I have the strength in me to deal with that and would really appreciate some advice on what might be the best option for me. It's made me feel worthless like you aren't taken seriously and I'm just not sure I want to continue going through that.

I appreciate this is a long post but I don't really have anywhere else to go for help.

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Comments

calcotti

It is not unusual for MRs to remain unchanged. The phrases about how PIP is assessed etc and standard phrases - they are not aimed at you specifically.

The tribunal is independent of DWP. Tribunals are (generally) good at trying to put claimants at their ease and will seek to understand your difficulties.

Fantastico

Biblioklept said:

What scares you most about the appeal and tribunal?

I've read a lot of horror stories about the tribunal and the process so far has already made me feel worthless. I know you're not technically dealing with DWP, but considering that I feel like I haven't been listened to once, I worry that they won't take me seriously this time either. It seems like a rather complicated thing to do. Tried to get help from my local Citizens Advice but it's near impossible to get through to them at all and the only help I've been able to get is online.

poppy123456

Success rate of Tribunals is around 70% if you appear in person. (or telephone) Paper based hearing have a much less success rate of between about 3-8% so my advice is not to request the paper based.

This link will tell you what advice agency is local to you. CAB don't usually represent these days so if it's representation you want then avoid them. https://advicelocal.uk/

Fantastico

Biblioklept said:

Aww but you will only be able to read bad things because people don't post if things are good as they don't need help, so don't let that put you off. It seems hard to believe but horror stories are actually the minority because percentage wise tribunals are mostly successful.

I get what you mean about it making you feel worthless and know the feeling. Have you submitted your appeal yet?

Not yet, if I do it'll probably be online sometime next week. I wanted to give myself time to think things over as I haven't been in the best frame of mind since I got my MR letter (plus dealing with a flare-up hasn't helped). It's true what you say, only those who've had bad experiences will post their stories, but considering how many there are it does make me wonder if it's worth putting myself through the stress.

Fantastico

poppy123456 said:

Success rate of Tribunals is around 70% if you appear in person. (or telephone) Paper based hearing have a much less success rate of between about 3-8% so my advice is not to request the paper based.
This link will tell you what advice agency is local to you. CAB don't usually represent these days so if it's representation you want then avoid them. https://advicelocal.uk/

I've tried getting help from Citizens Advice and haven't even been able to speak to them. If I do go through with the tribunal I will do face-to-face if possible because it's probably the best way to get my difficulties across. I don't think I'll be able to get any help other than from you fine folks online.

Fantastico

Biblioklept said:

There's no rush so do it when you're ready @Fantastico Do you know which particualr descriptors you're wanting to have them look at again?

There are a few I disagreed with. I tried to explain the difficulties I faced in much greater detail in the MR but it didn't really change anything. Have rheumatoid arthritis in both knees and ankles so there are a lot of daily tasks I have great difficulties doing or can't do at all and my mobility is severely limited. I was scored 0 in managing your treatments despite needing assistance when doing my physiotherapy to ensure I do it safely (I have a history of falling and hurting my joints in the past) so usually a family member will help me out. Dressing and undressing can be challenging too and I need assistance putting on certain pieces of clothes, especially if I can't bend my joints due to swelling and pain, which can especially be the case in the mornings when I wake up.

What's frustrating is the previous reports acknowledge that I need help and aid in preparing food, washing, and bathing so you'd think they would have realized I need similar help in dressing and with physio, etc. It's frustrating how they don't appear to have enforced the same rules fairly across the board. Then there is mobility, which I only scored a four on. I can't walk unaided for more than 20m without starting to experience discomfort and pain, and that's with the heavy painkillers I take daily. I struggle to understand the reasoning behind some of the decisions, though I blame the poor assessment I had for some of this. It just feels unfair and that you aren't listened to or taken seriously like you are a nuisance to them.

This is one of the reasons I'm so hesitant about appealing because I don't have a whole lot of faith in the process at this point.

Fantastico

It is frustrating and stressful, just thinking about starting the tribunal appeal is causing me a lot of anxiety. Been reading about assessments and I'm shocked at some of the horror stories, guess my own experience wasn't unusual. Would love to get some help as I read that representing yourself can be tough and can put you at a disadvantage. My biggest concern would be if I get an anxiety attack, start shaking/panicking and lose the opportunity to get my points across.

Did think about starting the appeal on Monday but might need some time to think things over, got to look after my physical and mental health first.

poppy123456

The worst thing you can do is read all the bad stories at this point.

Fantastico

Biblioklept said:

I think the people claiming and going to tribunal are always going to find it hard and feel it was worse than maybe they would think if they watched someone else's as it's personal to you and it's hard talking about your own struggles.
It's going to be an emotional journey @Fantastico but you can do it. Do you know how to submit the appeal and stuff?

I believe I do, I think I can do it online which seems like the best option as it tracks the progress. That said after that I'm still not entirely sure, been researching it but still somewhat confused as to how it works with documents, etc.

Fantastico

poppy123456 said:

The worst thing you can do is read all the bad stories at this point.

True I guess, but it's hard not to when you are desperately trying to figure out what the experience is like and how it might go down. As I have mentioned previously, the process has been pretty bad so far and it feels like they don't care or listen to you, so it's natural to not have much faith going into the tribunal. I know the tribunal isn't part of the DWP at all but it's hard to turn off the switch in your brain that worries about things like that.

jules2022

Hi, I'm new to this forum but have some experience of PIP claims and tribunals through my work. I would say definitely continue with the appeal as it's completely independent of the DWP and it sounds to me like you would have a very good chance of success. When you asked for the Mandatory Reconsideration did you request/receive a copy of the Medical Assessors Report (PA4)?
If not, request a copy (you can do this by telephone or in writing). When you receive it, I find it helps to go through it and highlight all the things you disagree with, and also note anything which you feel was missed. You can then use this to do a list of bullet points for the appeal.

poppy123456

You don't need the assessment report for anything because it causes a distraction more than anything else. It will be in the "bundle" that you'll eventually receive anyway. Concentrating on the report won't get you a PIP award.

jules2022

I wasn't meaning to imply that the PA4 is the only source to use, but it is one (big) part of the overall picture. I always find the PA4 useful as there's often a huge disparity between what the claimant says at the medical and what the assessor actually puts on the report. The PIP Decision Maker uses the PA4 as well as the original claim form to make their decision and will most often follow the assessor's recommended points for each activity. So knowing what errors or omissions are in the PA4 helps to explain why the points given by the Decision Maker are wrong.

poppy123456

What i'm saying here is HMCTS already know all about the flawed assessment reports and the errors they often contain. What they won't appreicate is a claimant pointing out those errors. You can't prove any lies that may have been told. Concentrating on the report can harm your case.

The assessment process isn't there for them to write what you said verbatim. It's for them to gather more evidence to support your claim. Put it to one side and move on.

jules2022

As a Welfare Benefits adviser with over 20 years experience in the voluntary sector, I can honestly state that I have never had any issue with raising errors in the PA4, either with the HMCTS or the tribunal panel at the hearing. On the contrary I think it is very important and giving a full picture can never "harm your case".
I would also recommend having a look at the "Benefits & Work" website - they have a really good forum on there with lots of useful advice about appeals.
Good luck Fantastico!

poppy123456

Sorry but i couldn't disagree more.

@Fantastico Please have a read of this thread, you may find Mike's comments very useful. https://forum.scope.org.uk/discussion/87932/pip-tribunal-representation/p1

Fantastico

jules2022 said:

Hi, I'm new to this forum but have some experience of PIP claims and tribunals through my work. I would say definitely continue with the appeal as it's completely independent of the DWP and it sounds to me like you would have a very good chance of success. When you asked for the Mandatory Reconsideration did you request/receive a copy of the Medical Assessors Report (PA4)?
If not, request a copy (you can do this by telephone or in writing). When you receive it, I find it helps to go through it and highlight all the things you disagree with, and also note anything which you feel was missed. You can then use this to do a list of bullet points for the appeal.

All I was sent was two copies of the MR decision letter and that's all. If I request the assessors report how long would it take to reach me and could I still start the tribunal process before receiving it because I don't know how long it takes before you even get an appointment for the tribunal. You really only have a month to request the tribunal unless you have a good reason I believe.

Thanks for your insight, very much appreciated.

Fantastico

poppy123456 said:

You don't need the assessment report for anything because it causes a distraction more than anything else. It will be in the "bundle" that you'll eventually receive anyway. Concentrating on the report won't get you a PIP award.

So the actual report will be in the bundle sent to me after starting the tribunal process? Think I understand. It sounds rather complex.

Appreciate the advice from you all, be lost without it.

poppy123456

Fantastico said:

poppy123456 said:

You don't need the assessment report for anything because it causes a distraction more than anything else. It will be in the "bundle" that you'll eventually receive anyway. Concentrating on the report won't get you a PIP award.

So the actual report will be in the bundle sent to me after starting the tribunal process? Think I understand. It sounds rather complex.

Appreciate the advice from you all, be lost without it.

Yes it will, including everything else you sent. You certainly don't need to assessment report to request the Tribunal. All you need to do is give a brief reason why you disagree with the decision. Everything else can be done later.

11-16 weeks is the wait.

Fantastico

poppy123456 said:

Sorry but i couldn't disagree more.
@Fantastico Please have a read of this thread, you may find Mike's comments very useful. https://forum.scope.org.uk/discussion/87932/pip-tribunal-representation/p1

Some really helpful advice. Thanks for this link, will probably start my appeal today online despite still being very nervous about doing so. Given that I didn't qualify for either component I don't see any harm in at least trying the tribunal process.