How do you do conversation with neurotypicals?

ulrichburke

Dear All.

I'm 54.  Yesterday I got to spend time with a woman for the first time in well over 20 years.  I'm incredibly ugly because my disabilities show themselves in my face so most people won't talk to me, I've gotten beaten up many times because of how I look.

I've got Asperger's.  As in major league, we're talking Third Rock from the Sun standards here (if anyone remembers that show!) I get totally no practice in talking TO people because most people talk AT me - very. Slowly. In. Words. Of. One. Syllable. Complete. With. Nervous. Smiles. And when they've said their say - usually it's officials of one kind or another - they vanish like they've been beamed aboard the Enterprise. I get reactions just as bad from other disabled people - been bashed by other autistics in the past, they bash you to show off their muscles and laugh because they know you can't react fast enough to do anything back, and if you get a shot in they just bash you harder.  Anyway.

She was disabled, in a wheelchair.  And she was talking to me like I was normal and I was getting more and more scared because I totally didn't know how to handle it/how to respond.  I suppose I should have Googled The Art of Conversation before going to meet her but I didn't, I guess I thought it would just 'work'.  It didn't.  I was gauche beyond utter belief, I could see I was, I could see every mistake I was making - I just didn't know what to DO about any of them. 

I came home to my flat and sat and was in floods of self-accusatory tears for ages - I seriously hadn't realised I was going to blow it this badly.  I should've realised I would do because of sheer lack of practice of being with other people - nobody wanted to know short fat Frankenstein in the corner 20 years ago, they sure don't now. 

Please, how - if you can add a bit of detail or examples so it's not 'well, follow her lead' or 'ask her about her day' (because that lasts about 10 seconds) - do you have conversations with a neurotypical - which she is, even though she's in a wheelchair, she doesn't have Asperger's - without blowing it?  I don't expect she'll ever talk to me again after yesterday - at one point, in a bar, she asked me if I wanted to go home and I could see she had her eye on a guy in the corner but I stuck it out - but I nearly broke down in tears in front of her cos I hated myself so much for blowing the whole situation so badly.  I mean I bought her lunch, I bought her presents from charity shops she took me into, I tried to be nice, it's just the conversation thing.  I don't know how to do it.  I never normally get any practice.  It's either home behind the Internet or out avoiding others' contemptuous glances. I can go for months without saying anything to anyone other than staff in shops. 

Yours hopefully

Chris.

Biblioklept

@ulrichburke oh how I wish I could reach through screen and give you a big hug, you are being so incredibly rough on yourself and you don't deserve that. Conversations and dating is hard for everyone and small talk is soooo tough on those of us that aren't neurotypical. Most of my interaction is behind a screen too and unless I get very familiar with and used to a person I find conversations difficult and I'm often just working out what to say and the conversation has moved on. We spend our lives looking for signs and meaning and interpreting stuff trying to figure out the clues and how-tos everyone else seems to just know. 

From what you've said, I imagine she's thinking maybe you weren't interested. How did you meet her? Could you send her a message to explain how nervous you were and how you feel out of touch talking to people and let her know you are still interested and see what she says? You don't know you've blown it until you try. Just because you feel you have or you've made assumptions about what she's thinking or feeling doesn't mean you're right. Remember us neuro-divergents tend to miss things or misinterpret them  

Sandy_123

Hi @ulrichburke I would to suggest that you send her a message and explain how you feel. This is 1 reason why I don't go on dates because I feel I have to impress someone and Im at an age where if people don't like what they see,  then move along.  
You seem to have   had a tough time with others mistreating you,  you are alot better then those people. I wish you luck.

ulrichburke

Dear Biblioklept and Sandy_123.

Biblioklept, your first paragraph was lovely - I didn't realise I wasn't the only one playing catchup in conversation, I never work out what's going on till it's too late and I can rile people up by taking something seriously they meant in jest - they think I'm doing it on purpose and I'm not.  Or the other way around - they're meaning it seriously and I'm thinking they're joking. Or I just don't 'get' what's going on at all.  That's if I ever get that far.  Most times, people just react to my face and I get ostracised or banned.  I'm banned from Brighton Pier because apparently my face scares other customers.  Ditto from several bars/places - apparently people complain about having to look at 'that creature' so I'm asked to leave. 

I met her in an online disability chatroom.  I designed her website, sat virtually with her when she was in hospital - she's 'died' 3 times - and bought her stuff to help her get restarted.  I find it easier talking by typing than verbally for some strange reason - it just seems to 'flow' better.  She came down from Wales to spend the day with me and I'd no idea I was going to blow it this badly. 

I've left her a message on Fb but she's not answered.  Get the feeling she's not going to.  I sit in my flat with beakies and squeakies - I've got a seagull I rescued on the windowsill.  He got hit by a car which broke his wing, the vets wanted to put him down so I kept a bundled-up bundle of feathers in the flat for 3 months while his wing got better.  I fed him on bacon pieces from Morrison's.  Still do! He can't fly as well as the others so I top him up when he turns up.  I've also got lots of mice.  Vermin? THEY were here first.  It's like kicking indigenous people off their lands, building a city and calling them vermin when they want their lands back.  Why not just share?  They live on little piles of cheese, on saucers in their corners.  Had a MASSIVE rat for awhile too - Ratzuki! He must've been a foot long. He was lovely, he'd lumber around with mice bouncing off him like ping-pong balls off a tank! Dunno what got him but he left kids behind, they're bigger than normal adult rats and they've still got baby fur. They're my friends too, they sit and wash their whiskers, munch cheese and smile. 

Got zero human company, though, too scared.  Got a sister who's got a real problem with disability, she lives opposite a group home and won't park anywhere near it. She's never let her b/f see me, only talks on the phone now. 

Thanks, Bibliokept and Sandy_123. Kinda feels like the walls are falling in on me. Dunno how I'm gonna get out of this one. 

Yours respectfully

Chris.

Sandy_123

Thanks for replying I'm saddened to read about Brighton pier banning you for your looks, surely that's discrimination. That's just awful that society is that way inclined in today's world. Are there any activity clubs you can join in your area to meet people who won't discriminate. 

ulrichburke

Dear Sandy_123.

Especially after yesterday, I need to get better at socialising first.  Which becomes a vicious circle - how do you get better at socialising WITHOUT socialising, yet how do you go along to places where others are socialising and join in if you don't know how to do it? It's like joining - say - a chess club when you don't know the first thing about chess, the difference being one of the members might teach you the rules.  When you go into a social group, they kinda expect you to know the rules already.

As was brought home to me yesterday, I don't.  Not any of them, not even close. When that happens in clubs/daycentres where people accept who you ARE, you hit rock-in-stream syndrome.  The stream carries on flowing all around you cos you're There, in the middle of it.  You're the rock.  The brook carries on babbling, but you're not part of it, nor do you know how to be.  The brook might not reject you, but neither will it make you part of it. 

I want to learn to be part of the brook, not a rock anymore.  How do I learn that? People have said 'learn by doing', but what do I do to learn?

Yours hopefully

Chris.

Sandy_123

Have you looked on line there all sorts of help pages etc to help with communicating technics

Biblioklept

@ulrichburke you've summed up so well the struggles of being autistic. But you know it's not a bad thing??? It's hard for us but not impossible and the more exposure you have the easier it will get. It's just learning the different ways people communicate and also building your own confidence!!

I can't find it now but I remember reading a study on how many times a neurodivergent person gets criticised growing up compared to a neurotypical and it was shocking and I could relate. And often for things we have no control over. So people split in two ways, either masking and trying to conform which eats at self esteem or avoiding social situations which also eats at self esteem. You need to build your confidence and self belief and realise you have so much value to the world. You are worth talking to. People want to hear your voice. You are important.

I can't believe Brighton Pier banned you that's outrageous!!!!!!!! Honestly I'm shocked beyond words. How did this even happen?

Have you heard any from the lady you went on a date with? 

ulrichburke

Dear Biblioklept.

Brighton Pier's got lots of benches in little alcoves and scattered around the place.  I was sitting on one kinda round the back of the touristy buildings, sucking on an overpriced ice-cream, playing tourist for once! And a bunch of [Removed by moderator] girls came round the corner.

Now I looked up at them NOT cos they were girls, but just because I was looking around at everything and wanted to see who was coming round the corner (OK, I'm male, when I realised they were female there was a touch of 'Cor! Nice!' in the glance but nothing lewd, promise!) And they screamed and giggled at the creature looking up at them. 

And [Removed by moderator] - he's gotta be the biggest person-of-colour, whatever you're allowed to call 'em these days without being yelled at, I've ever seen - came out the back office.  "Can't have creatures like you scaring our customers.  **** off, you're banned!"

Went along the BOTTOM level of the promenade a few days later.  The promenade in Brighton's split level, there's a top street level and a lower, let's-grab-the-tourists level, you know the kinda thing, souvenir shops, fish'n'chips'n'ice-cream-a-gogo.  And I was walking along there, just looking at the shops and I walked under the Pier - there's shops there too.

"YOU'RE BARRED!"  At 200 decibels. 
I looked up at [Removed by moderator] (no I don't know his name!) "I'm UNDER the Pier!"
"You're TOO **** CLOSE!" And the guys with him started laughing.  "**** OFF, YOU'RE BARRED.  YOU DON'T WANT TO MAKE ME COME DOWN THERE, DO YOU?"
If he'd been just a LEETLE smaller I might have called him on it.  But honestly, I wouldn't have lasted 2 punches and he wouldn't have felt any of mine! So I left.  And the shopkeepers stared at me and decided if [Removed by moderator] had barred me from the Pier, they'd bar me from their shops. 

And that's how it's been ever since.  If [Removed by moderator]'s around, barred from the Pier.  If he ISN'T, the other bouncers can't be bothered bouncing me.  I'm barred from the shops on the lower promenade regardless, word spreads fast.  If I'm on the pier and [Removed by moderator] comes on duty, I get picked up physically and slung off.  I'm big, he's truly strong. 

And that's how come I'm barred from the Pier.  I asked the police about me being barred from a public place and learned to my astonishment the pier ISN'T a public place, the Pier Company bought it outright a few years back and it's a private business.  Private businesses don't need to allow anyone on their premises and can use 'reasonable force' to deter banned individuals from entering their premises (think nightclub bouncers.) So they're quite within their rights to bar me.  It DOES, however, seem a tad overkill considering all I was doing was peoplewatching - maybe you disagree, if so fair enough, tell me and I'll learn. For real. No facetiousness there!

Yours respectfully

Chris.

ulrichburke

Just realised I've not answered your other questions, sorry. 

Thanks for your nice words - people DON'T want to hear my voice.  Lots of them don't even want me around. The only time people want me around is when I've got money and they haven't.  THEN I'm Everyone's Friend! The rest of the time, they couldn't care less.  They're not NASTY to me, it's just they're one group and I'm not included unless they're broke and I'm not.  And it's not so much 'people don't want to hear my voice', it's 'I've flat zero idea what to say to them!'  There's all this small talk and innuendo and sarcasm and stuff flying around and I just can't keep up with it.  I'm far, far too slow. If I COULD, THEN I'd be included more cos I'd be on their level more.  As it IS - it's "30-seconds-of-bwilliant-repartee..." everyone looks at Chris.  Chris goes "Durrr - dime bar?" Everyone gives a polite laugh and doesn't bother looking at Chris again for the rest of the evening as it's obvious Chris can't play the game.  If you feel you could TEACH me to play the game, I'd honestly listen and try things. I've hit instructional pages and they're all about initiating.  How to initiate a conversation, how to keep it going from your perspective.  I can't find - if you know of one, tell me - a 'how to break into a conversation and join in with it' page/website anywhere.

I think I blew it with the lady.  She's not talked to me since.  I'm really, really down about it. I thought I'd planned it all out well and I just blew it by not being able to do conversation on her level.  It's going to take me a very long time getting over that day.  I so thought I'd planned it out perfectly.  Left a nice message on her Fb., she's not said a word to me.  Scared to say anything else incase she boots me.  All advice will  be tried - was my first date in over 20 years, believe it or not!

Yours respectfully

Chris.

Sandy_123

Hi again have you thought of writing a letter of complaint to who ever employs these bouncers on discrimination and the way they behave you may be sirprised by the reply back from the owners.

ulrichburke

TBH - no I hadn't.  I'll try that, I just kinda assumed they'd go along with their bouncers.  They're employed by the Brighton Pier Company, the Pier can get pretty rowdy in the tourist season cos it gets crowded, it sells alcohol and you always get a few - er - alcoholically challenged gentlemen and ladies(!) staggering around like zombies, being belligerent.  [Removed by moderator]'s in his element then, I've seen him in action, he just strides through the crowd, people bouncing off him in all directions, happily punching any rowdies in sight! And his fellows sweep up the groaning pieces behind him.  At the time, I just had a slight aversion to becoming one of the groaning pieces!

Yours respectfully

Chris.

ulrichburke

Dear Biblioklept and Sandy_123.

I've done the E_mail of Complaint to the Brighton Pier Company and sent it off.  No idea when/if I'll hear anything back but, if I do, I'll sure let you two know what they say!

Thanks for your support, it's very much appreciated.

Yours respectfully

Chris.

Sandy_123

Oh well done it needed doing , hope you get a reply soon chris, meantime join us I the topics on the forum.

ulrichburke

Dear Biblioklept and Sandy_123.

Looks like [Removed by moderator]'s a racist thing to say nowadays.  Wonder if that means they're banning all the movies!!

Yours respectfully

Chris.

Sandy_123

Hi @ulrichburke any emails received yet?

ulrichburke

Dear Sandy.

Not yet, but if I don't get one by Friday I'm sending The Pier Company a reminder. Pester power. Kid in a Brighton Pier ice-cream parlour job!

Thanks for asking, I'm very touched. 

Yours respectfully

Chris.

ulrichburke

Dear Sandy_123.

FINALLY got a reply from the Pier Company.  Apparently they're a subsidiary of a bigger company - didn't know this - who run lots of leisure activities and the company don't believe in interfering/intervening with their employees' on-the-spot decisions. 

So I sent one back saying he was the only one who booted me, never heard anything else back!

Yours respectfully

Chris.

Sandy_123

Oh that's rediculas,  I'd be tempted to go to local paper, I'm sure that will make them listen. Or get a solicitor for discrimination. 

How are you lately apart from that above. You should join in with all the topics on the forum. No one here will shun you out,  be intresting to hear what you have for tea or the other wonderful topics. 

ulrichburke

Dear Sandy_123.

Bit scared but I'll give it a go.

Yours respectfully

Chris.

Sandy_123

Chris no one here will judge you trust me we've all got our own things going on. Look faward to seeing you post around look in coffee shop under categories