What is the difference between these two 'personal action' LCWRA descriptors?
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Yes. I think that must be it.
Does your report refer to social difficulties (anxiety around people) processing difficulties, agression, meltdowns, shutdowns, anything like that to give a clue?
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Does your report have prognosis and justification for advice paragraph like my son's?
I really don't know how my son got that - it looks like they called the GP. He never goes to a GP!!!
Once my son knows how to do something, he's actually very good, reliable and safe. He can follow a full sequence through. It just takes him longer to learn it.
And - he does definitely have problems initiating tasks. Once he is in his routine though, great!
He can walk to the bus himself, catch a bus, get to his work and home again. The report makes it seem as if he has no prospects at all.
I don't think he will ever manage in an unsupported workplace as he needs things slow and simple but he can make a slice of toast, fry an egg and his beloved supernoodles!
I think they definitely made a mistake and he will get LCW next time.
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It does yes, mostly outbursts, meltdowns and aggressive behaviour, but I can't see if that's clearly referencing personal action or personal change — I'd say the latter as I said that more during the assessment, but that's not too clearly illustrated.
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It doesn't have anything specific like that, no.
I'm the same, it can take me a while to remember steps, but once I get the steps I'm usually pretty fast at it — it does depend on the complexity of the task though! I'm the same, initiating is hard, but once I know where I'm at, I'm usually okay, although it can be very challenging.
I think though it's (a) you can't even start a task, (b) is you can basically complete part of the task at least 2 steps of the way… seems that's what it is!
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Only question about (b) is if it has to be a sequential order… I would assume not, since it doesn't mention that.
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I am understanding the wording as meaning (a) focuses on the struggle with sequencing actions, while (b) considers a broader difficulty with initiating or completing tasks, regardless of sequence, for the majority of the time. This is just my interpretation of the questions I have no hard evidence to back it up.
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Perhaps a solid example of (a) and (b) would work good, like clearly outlining the differences with practical examples? Is (a) majority of time or not at all?
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I think you have got your points on activity 17 then - behaviour. See attached screenshot.
Interestingly, right now i am watching BBC2 - the story of Clemmy Burton-Hill, a BBC broadcaster who suffered a brain rupture.
It is charting her recovery and she really does illustrate sequencing difficulties really well. She's very intelligent and is so frustrated because there is a breakdown between the messages between her brain and her hands.
She's one determined woman though! An interesting watch!
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Hello @anisty yeah I'll need to see which criteria I've had as I don't remember or saw the assessor saying it on a daily basis, I'll need to see. That does sound like an interesting documentary though — the brain is a funny thing, I wonder if one day scientists will ever figure it all out. It's really complex.
I think after having a sleep on int though, (a) means you'd need to do something like putting the food onto a pan and cooking it for the majority of the time, so: putting the pan on the stove, then turning the stove on, then putting the food in, and you have to complete at least 2 of those.
(b) like @MW123 said is more broader, so you have a general difficulty with completing tasks that aren't necessarily sequential, like I suppose: putting a water bottle in your hand down, going into the fridge and getting something, and then picking up the water bottle again, but you didn't because of dopamine misfires (basically the two tasks are not linked together) — that would be my best understanding of both (a) and (b) with my own examples.
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(a) is just more to do with sequential actions where the actions are linked to a task for the majority of the time, (b) is when you can do at least 2 actions but not necessarily where the actions are linked to a task for the majority of the time.
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Please correct me though if I'm wrong.
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@Rumbler303, as said before this is just my own interpretation. I think (a) applies to difficulties with tasks that need to be done in a specific order, like a chain of actions. For example, making a cup of tea involves boiling the kettle first, then putting a tea bag in the cup, and finally pouring in the hot water. If someone cannot start or finish at least two of these steps in sequence without help, due to mental difficulties, this descriptor would apply.
(b) is broader and refers to struggling with any two tasks, even if they are not connected or part of a sequence. For instance, putting down a water bottle, then going to the fridge to get something, but being unable to return to pick up the water bottle again. These tasks are unrelated, but the person still has trouble completing them, which could be due to feeling mentally overwhelmed, distracted, or blocked.
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Thanks for the reply.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a818f8e40f0b62302697f86/esa214-july-2016.pdfPage 22 refers to “sequential” on every descriptor so a, b and c. So could we instead say a is “not able to do it all” since b mentions “majority”? The original site I linked must have left out sequential which is annoying.
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I've done a bit more research:
In the link below, it says the 15 points is if this applies always, if it's most of the time, it's the 9 points category, and each descriptor is to do with sequential actions. It is to do with prompting.
This is both starting and successfully completing at least 2 tasks in a row, in a logical order, such as planning and cooking a meal—without needing to be prompted by someone else. If you can only do things with encouragement, then the answer is ‘never’ - use the box to explain about the encouragement you need.
The HCP guidance says this applies to people with conditions such as psychosis, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), autism, learning disability, very severe depression causing apathy or abnormal levels of fatigue. Remember this is guidance only and if it affects you in any way, write it down. Even ‘mild’ depression can result in you being unable to get started on anything without encouragement, so should be included.
If you suffer from OCD and would not be able to finish a task in a reasonable time, you should not be considered to have successfully finished. Explain what rituals you have to do and how long everything takes.
@anisty this is relevant to what you were saying: Caselaw has now stated that activities that are automatic such as automatically getting dressed is not sufficient as it does not involve the legal test of action involving planning, organisation, problem solving, prioritising or switching tasks. Give examples of activities you cannot start and finish that actually reflect the test. Think about planning, preparing and then cooking a meal (instead of putting anything to hand in the microwave), going shopping—making a list, deciding where to go, choosing what to get instead if can’t get what is on your list or getting dressed - not just in what is left out, choosing appropriate clothes, deciding if they need washing or ironing, switching to ironing before getting dressed.
Link: https://www.newcastle.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Welfare%20Rights/esa50%20guide%20april%202019.pdf
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To add more:
The descriptor may be satisfied if there is a significant restriction of an individual’s ability to understand how to co-ordinate actions in the correct sequence such that they can't successfully complete any personal actions in a logical order.
I believe, in other words, if you always need someone to prompt you to do something in the right order to complete a task i.e. guide you along, all the time, you'll qualify for LCWRA.
E.g. opening a tin of soup and heating it up, and then putting it into a bowl. If you need prompting to finish the task or to get that in the right order if you mix it up, then you will qualify for LCWRA.
It also mentions that the personal actions have to be effective i.e. done in a reasonable amount of time (like those in OCD which take longer due to obsessing over details and thus not qualifying), or someone with bipolar who can manage to wash and dress but then gets their money out, and then spends it on non-essentials and thus failing to do an effective personal action and qualifying for the criteria, as they are not able to do an effective personal action.
Hopefully this helps others that explains how this descriptor works.
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More examples of effective personal action:
Planning, preparing and then cooking a meal (instead of putting anything to hand in the microwave)
Going shopping — making a list, deciding where to go, choosing what to get instead if can’t get what is on your list.
Getting dressed - not just in what is left out, choosing appropriate clothes, deciding if they need washing or ironing, switching to ironing before getting dressed.
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Very good information @Rumbler303 !!
I think my son got it on this basis then as he struggles with task initiation. If he went into any workplace where he had to think for himself, he'd be no use as all and would stand around doing nothing.
But, once he is shown exactly what to do, he is really great! Very reliable and accurate. It is true though, if his sequence was interrupted, he could easily be flustered.
At the moment, his job involves approaching customers in the cafe, taking their order and inputting it onto a screen. When the order is ready, he takes their food over. He's been doing that same job 8 years now and he is very good at it.
But - if, as his was approaching a table with an order, someone said "actually, i've changed my mind. Can you switch that coke for a Fanta and we'll have 2 ginger beers as well" he'd stop. He wouldn't put the tray down. He'd have to stand still to process that verbal information. I think a support worker would need to assist at that point.
It probably is the right group for him but he didn't need the extra payment you get in LCWRA. And they pay him for the cafe!! And take no deduction off his UC. He had far too much money. His UC stopped due to too much capital.
If he ever re starts UC, i will push for him to get LCW group. I think he could manage that group. He is limited in his capacity for work. But i don't think he is limited in his capacity for work-related activity. He has done prepare for work courses before and he is perfectly capable of attending a course.
This does explain why he was in that group though, thank you.
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No problem, I did some digging and was curious if I fit into that, I probably do for LCWRA at the moment, but equally it could be also coping with change too. I need to wait to see what one they put me in.
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