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Disability discrimination at assessment (Equality Act)

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Comments

  • Tara100
    Tara100 Community member Posts: 16 Connected
    Waylay said:
    @Tara100 There was a Court of Appeal case a while back that's vaguely related. Comment by a lawyer: “As a result of the Court of Appeal decision, the powers of the social security tribunal have been severely curtailed. The tribunal is no longer able to address the injustice that is caused to a social welfare claimant by the application of regulations that breach their rights protected by the Human Rights Act.”
    This is now being appealed to the Supreme Court:
    LeighDay is a law firm that works on a lot of cases about disability issues. I think they accept cases from people without money to pay, too.

    Also, Re: genital touching: The PIP Assessment Guide Part 1
    says
    2.6.31. "The HP should never disturb underwear; never ask the claimant to remove their underwear; and never carry out intimate examinations (breast, rectal or genital examinations)."
    Don't know if they mean with or without clothes, but I'm pretty sure that what she did was a no-no!

    They'll almost certainly pooh-pooh your first formal complaint. Ask for it to be investigated by a Senior Manager. If that doesn't get results, send it to ICE.

    You can also complain to the DWP about the behaviour of their cintractor, and to the registrartion body of the assessor.

    Cheers!








    Thank you so much for this info, it'll be my Saturday night homework ?

    I have reported the nurse to the M&NC back in November last year. They are still investigating her fitness to practice. Although I've since learned that when presented with complaints, it's rare for them to act, unless pressured by a lawyer or similar. 
  • Tara100
    Tara100 Community member Posts: 16 Connected
    edited March 2019
    cristobal said:
    I agree with @waylay when he says ..."They'll almost certainly pooh-pooh your first formal complaint. Ask for it to be investigated by a Senior Manager. If that doesn't get results, send it to ICE."

    I made a complaint about the examination part of my assessment - consent very dubious, procedure not explained, and when I stopped one of the stretching exercises because it hurt  the assessor asked "Are you sure that it's pain?" It was all on a  recording.

    My first reply was a total fob-off, seemed to be a pre-formatted letter explaining their 'procedures'.

    My next letter was lost.

    The second reply - which they said was a 'final look'- did address some of the matters I had raised but not the physical examination. The reply was quite detailed in some areas and I formed the impression that it had been conveniently overlooked, and filed under 'too difficult'

    I'd made it clear from the start that I didn't want anyone to be disciplined or sacked, and all that I was seeking was an acknowledgment that the examination was carried out badly, and a promise that the assessor would be advised/ retrained about what they must do as regards consent, claimant being in pain etc. I was left feeling very disappointed that they chose not to do either of these things....


    cristobal said:
    I agree with @waylay when he says ..."They'll almost certainly pooh-pooh your first formal complaint. Ask for it to be investigated by a Senior Manager. If that doesn't get results, send it to ICE."

    I made a complaint about the examination part of my assessment - consent very dubious, procedure not explained, and when I stopped one of the stretching exercises because it hurt  the assessor asked "Are you sure that it's pain?" It was all on a  recording.

    My first reply was a total fob-off, seemed to be a pre-formatted letter explaining their 'procedures'.

    My next letter was lost.

    The second reply - which they said was a 'final look'- did address some of the matters I had raised but not the physical examination. The reply was quite detailed in some areas and I formed the impression that it had been conveniently overlooked, and filed under 'too difficult'

    I'd made it clear from the start that I didn't want anyone to be disciplined or sacked, and all that I was seeking was an acknowledgment that the examination was carried out badly, and a promise that the assessor would be advised/ retrained about what they must do as regards consent, claimant being in pain etc. I was left feeling very disappointed that they chose not to do either of these things....


    Sorry i missed this. In my case, I.A.S have concluded a full investigation, and have admitted fault by letter, stating that the assessment 'was not robust' and that none of my mental health issues were discussed or noted. They admit that her report findings were scant, and not thorough enough to base her findings (the report response boxes had a sentence in each, or left empty)

    As I've exhausted their complaints procedure, they wrote at the bottom of the letter, you may now go to I.C.E.

    This is my next step in a few days. Though even I.C.E only make recommendations to I.A.S, and actually cannot enforce changes from what I can see.

    Unless I can get legal assistance, I'm stuffed really, and the thought of having to explain a year of correspondence for an I.C.E case makes me feel ill.
  • wilko
    wilko Community member Posts: 2,458 Disability Gamechanger
    Hello everyone, getting prove and proving what may or did happen is a difficult job in any circumstances unless there are witnesses to back up the accusations that are being disputed. Being persistent and consistent with your approach to proving the incedent happened looks like it’s the only course of action in theses type of cases.
  • Tara100
    Tara100 Community member Posts: 16 Connected
    edited March 2019
    wilko said:
    Hello everyone, getting prove and proving what may or did happen is a difficult job in any circumstances unless there are witnesses to back up the accusations that are being disputed. Being persistent and consistent with your approach to proving the incedent happened looks like it’s the only course of action in theses type of cases.
    Hi. Independent assessment services have admitted fault by their final conclusions letter, but can't admit if the nurse assaulted me. I'm hoping that there's other complaints about her behaviour lodged with the N&MC, then that will change things.

    We need the video equipment being slowly trialled, to be available to all, now.
  • twonker
    twonker Posts: 617 Pioneering
    edited March 2019
    Tara100 said:


    We need the video equipment being slowly trialled, to be available to all, now.
    Provide it yes, but for it being used that should be at the option of the claimant. The default should not be that it is used unless the claimant objects. It should be the other way round with permission being sought by the assessor beforehand. Not everybody would want to be videoed. The images of the claimant belong to the claimant and not the DWP or the assessing company. 
  • wildlife
    wildlife Community member Posts: 1,293 Pioneering
    @Tara100 I have had a complaint with ICE and thought it might be of help to tell you it took them over 2 years to get around to investigating it and when they did they insisted that they only look at system failures. I.e How your complaint was handled by IAS and not anything to do with the assessment or benefit decision. I'm not sure where they drawer the line as to my mind anything that is not done correctly is a system failure. I found a complete wall of defense for the assessor with excuses like it's your word against hers (in my case). In other words they only believe them not us where there is no proof. I really hope you can get justice. 
  • Tara100
    Tara100 Community member Posts: 16 Connected
    twonker said:
    Tara100 said:


    We need the video equipment being slowly trialled, to be available to all, now.
    Provide it yes, but for it being used that should be at the option of the claimant. The default should not be that it is used unless the claimant objects. It should be the other way round with permission being sought by the assessor beforehand. Not everybody would want to be videoed. The images of the claimant belong to the claimant and not the DWP or the assessing company. 
    I thought this went without saying...

    For those who don't want it, they will go to assessments at their own risk, and could end up in a scenario like mine. Yes, it's their choice.
  • Tara100
    Tara100 Community member Posts: 16 Connected
    wildlife said:
    @Tara100 I have had a complaint with ICE and thought it might be of help to tell you it took them over 2 years to get around to investigating it and when they did they insisted that they only look at system failures. I.e How your complaint was handled by IAS and not anything to do with the assessment or benefit decision. I'm not sure where they drawer the line as to my mind anything that is not done correctly is a system failure. I found a complete wall of defense for the assessor with excuses like it's your word against hers (in my case). In other words they only believe them not us where there is no proof. I really hope you can get justice. 
    Yes, I'd read ICE isn't much use in many cases sadly. They work more so, to implement better procedures, and not a lot else.
    I'm still going to make a complaint to them, so that I can show I've followed the full complaints process, plus it'll still sting IAS, if only a little.
  • wildlife
    wildlife Community member Posts: 1,293 Pioneering
    @Tara100 I agree that it's important to see the process through to the end although there's still the Parliamentary Ombudsman after ICE. All they did was rolitary cognize that IAS had not responded to my complaint within the time scale set and they had to pay me a consolitary £35 which I consider an insult after all I went through. I was pinning my hopes on ICE doing an independent investigation as their name implies but found they sided with the assessor and in their final report they mentioned that IAS's investigation had found no fault with my report so insinuating they must be right. I was left feeling very let down. This is only my experience, your case is different and one would hope they'll take it very seriously. Good luck...    
  • Tara100
    Tara100 Community member Posts: 16 Connected
    wildlife said:
    @Tara100 I agree that it's important to see the process through to the end although there's still the Parliamentary Ombudsman after ICE. All they did was rolitary cognize that IAS had not responded to my complaint within the time scale set and they had to pay me a consolitary £35 which I consider an insult after all I went through. I was pinning my hopes on ICE doing an independent investigation as their name implies but found they sided with the assessor and in their final report they mentioned that IAS's investigation had found no fault with my report so insinuating they must be right. I was left feeling very let down. This is only my experience, your case is different and one would hope they'll take it very seriously. Good luck...    
    Thanks ❤
    I was offered £25.00 by DWP for their failings, then told no one made such an offer, so it wasnt valid ? You really couldn't make it up. 

    On a more serious note, I was telephoned by an IAS senior complaints manager, and told to write in with a money request amount for private therapy sessions.
    I wrote in, then received a letter saying there is no evidence of such a phone call, so there is no offer. I have the original call recorded on my phone though. 
    I've never known such deceit and lies and corruption.
  • twonker
    twonker Posts: 617 Pioneering
    edited April 2019
    Tara100 said:





    I thought this went without saying...

    For those who don't want it, they will go to assessments at their own risk, and could end up in a scenario like mine. Yes, it's their choice.
    Not necessarily. The way the government are looking at it is that it will either be compulsory for all or at best it is for the claimant to opt out.
    Even with video taping, nothing is going to stop an assessor from forming their own view/opinion which may well not be the same as what the claimant thinks.
    Also, are you seriously thinking that the DWP decision maker is going to review 1 hour or so of video tape before making a decision? If they did that, the queue of claimants waiting for a decision will be unmanageable.
    Same will go for a Tribunal, I cannot see a panel having to go through hours of taping for those making appeals.
  • Tara100
    Tara100 Community member Posts: 16 Connected
    twonker said:
    Tara100 said:





    I thought this went without saying...

    For those who don't want it, they will go to assessments at their own risk, and could end up in a scenario like mine. Yes, it's their choice.
    Not necessarily. The way the government are looking at it is that it will either be compulsory for all or at best it is for the claimant to opt out.
    Even with video taping, nothing is going to stop an assessor from forming their own view/opinion which may well not be the same as what the claimant thinks.
    Also, are you seriously thinking that the DWP decision maker is going to review 1 hour or so of video tape before making a decision? If they did that, the queue of claimants waiting for a decision will be unmanageable.
    Same will go for a Tribunal, I cannot see a panel having to go through hours of taping for those making appeals.

    You or I do not know the ins-and outs of how the system will work, so let's not waste time speculating eh?
    You could make enquiries with the right departments as to how the trial is going if you really want to know.

    Call me selfish, but I won't be changing my mind for my own future protection. And on that note, assessors have also been assaulted by clients, and many welcome the new approach for their own safety.
  • twonker
    twonker Posts: 617 Pioneering
    edited April 2019
    Tara100 said:
    twonker said:
    Tara100 said:





    I thought this went without saying...

    For those who don't want it, they will go to assessments at their own risk, and could end up in a scenario like mine. Yes, it's their choice.
    Not necessarily. The way the government are looking at it is that it will either be compulsory for all or at best it is for the claimant to opt out.
    Even with video taping, nothing is going to stop an assessor from forming their own view/opinion which may well not be the same as what the claimant thinks.
    Also, are you seriously thinking that the DWP decision maker is going to review 1 hour or so of video tape before making a decision? If they did that, the queue of claimants waiting for a decision will be unmanageable.
    Same will go for a Tribunal, I cannot see a panel having to go through hours of taping for those making appeals.

    You or I do not know the ins-and outs of how the system will work, so let's not waste time speculating eh?
    You could make enquiries with the right departments as to how the trial is going if you really want to know.

    Call me selfish, but I won't be changing my mind for my own future protection. And on that note, assessors have also been assaulted by clients, and many welcome the new approach for their own safety.
    The trial is being carried out on an 'opt out' basis by the claimant. If opting out, sound only will be recorded. Whether that should also be an 'opt out' is another matter. I believe that all recordings, sound or vision, should be carried out with the claimant's prior permission. Far too much big brother has already been forced on us without our permission. 
    Claimants for a welfare benefit should not be treated as suspects are in a police interview room.

    As for assessors being assaulted. I doubt very much that that is such a significant number that the government want these recordings. In fact just with a quick scan on google assaults on claimants are more prevalent. Assessors have a panic strip around where they sit to press if they feel intimidated.

    For me, well I don't want any recordings and if the assessor is unfair or unjust I have the appeal system to fall back on.

    As for assessors wanting this system of recording could you please post a link as to where your statement comes from?
  • Tara100
    Tara100 Community member Posts: 16 Connected
    edited April 2019
    twonker said:
    Tara100 said:
    twonker said:
    Tara100 said:





    I thought this went without saying...

    For those who don't want it, they will go to assessments at their own risk, and could end up in a scenario like mine. Yes, it's their choice.
    Not necessarily. The way the government are looking at it is that it will either be compulsory for all or at best it is for the claimant to opt out.
    Even with video taping, nothing is going to stop an assessor from forming their own view/opinion which may well not be the same as what the claimant thinks.
    Also, are you seriously thinking that the DWP decision maker is going to review 1 hour or so of video tape before making a decision? If they did that, the queue of claimants waiting for a decision will be unmanageable.
    Same will go for a Tribunal, I cannot see a panel having to go through hours of taping for those making appeals.

    You or I do not know the ins-and outs of how the system will work, so let's not waste time speculating eh?
    You could make enquiries with the right departments as to how the trial is going if you really want to know.

    Call me selfish, but I won't be changing my mind for my own future protection. And on that note, assessors have also been assaulted by clients, and many welcome the new approach for their own safety.
    The trial is being carried out on an 'opt out' basis by the claimant. If opting out, sound only will be recorded. Whether that should also be an 'opt out' is another matter. I believe that all recordings, sound or vision, should be carried out with the claimant's prior permission. Far too much big brother has already been forced on us without our permission. 
    Claimants for a welfare benefit should not be treated as suspects are in a police interview room.

    As for assessors being assaulted. I doubt very much that that is such a significant number that the government want these recordings. In fact just with a quick scan on google assaults on claimants are more prevalent. Assessors have a panic strip around where they sit to press if they feel intimidated.

    For me, well I don't want any recordings and if the assessor is unfair or unjust I have the appeal system to fall back on.

    As for assessors wanting this system of recording could you please post a link as to where your statement comes from?

    Google is your friend for the info you need. Whatever links I'd post would be joyfully ripped apart I'm sure. 
    You can also make an appointment to see your MP like I have. He can then pass on your agenda to the HP.

    I'd appreciate my thread not going off on a tangent anymore about future DWP / I.A.S recordings. I will not speak on this issue any further and hope you will respect this.
    Thank you.
  • Waylay
    Waylay Community member, Scope Member Posts: 973 Pioneering
    I wrote in, then received a letter saying there is no evidence of such a phone call, so there is no offer. I have the original call recorded on my phone though. 
    I've never known such deceit and lies and corruption.
    @Tara100 OMG. Ridiculous!

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