I didn’t loose everything. - Page 2 — Scope | Disability forum
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I didn’t loose everything.

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  • twonker
    twonker Posts: 617 Pioneering
    ilovecats said:
    cristobal said:
    @wildlife - I think, but I don't know for a fact, that the idea is to direct the benefit at those that are prevented from carrying out day to day tasks by their condition.That's why it is dependent on functionality not just a diagnosis.

    To me this makes a lot of sense - the effect of one condition will be different, dependent on the individual.

    It may not be ideal but I think that it's better than just saying "if you've got x then you get PIP" 

    Functional evidence - I used a report from an OH specialist as to why my loss of functionality meant I couldn't remain in employment. Also a diary, which I used to evidence how I couldn't carry out tasks due to tiredness.
    What @cristobel has written is all correct @wildlife. I know I’ve said it before, and people do not accept it but diagnostic evidence does not tell us much because two people with the same diagnosis can be impacted functionally in a different way. 
    Absolutely, you need evidence of functionality. 
    As an ex assessor, what independent evidence and where may it be found that would satisfy your requirements at the assessment, or indeed at the stage of reviewing the PIP2 prior to a face to face assessment being called for?

    I have already mentioned letters from friends and family that are obviously supporting of what is claimed as well as a diary maintained by the claimant over a couple of weeks which may or may not be a figment of their imagination?

  • cristobal
    cristobal Community member Posts: 984 Disability Gamechanger
    @twonker - if I understand correctly you seem to be dismissing a diary on the basis that "it could be made up".

    It could, of course, but I think that most people are still honest. As well as supporting my application my diary helped me in the F2F as I knew for a fact how often I did x,y,z...


  • cristobal
    cristobal Community member Posts: 984 Disability Gamechanger
    edited April 2019
    @ilovecats- I agree with your point above about 'realistic expectations'

    Lots of the posts on this forum start with "I've got x,y,z and got 0 points!!"

    I've never seen one that says "I thought that I should have got x points, and I only got y", which would be very helpful to know..



  • wildlife
    wildlife Community member Posts: 1,293 Pioneering
    @ilovecats please can you say what tests and by whom can we provide to be able to refuse the movements. You talk about the bending. I only managed to touch the very top of my thighs but my assessor wrote "Knees". I had provided an xray report showing DDD in my lower back. As I've said before ALL my results were not what I actually did with some made up that I didn't do. So it's not surprising I want to avoid this happening again. How would you react as an assessor if I told you my last assessor was dishonest. What wording would be accepted or would it not be a good idea to say anything despite my 2 year battle that came to nothing ?  
  • twonker
    twonker Posts: 617 Pioneering
    cristobal said:
    @ilovecats- I agree with your point above about 'realistic expectations'

    Lots of the posts on this forum start with "I've got x,y,z and got 0 points!!"

    I've never seen one that says "I thought that I should have got x points, and I only got y", which would be very helpful to know..



    Exactly. I've got this arthritis in every joint of my body so says the claimant. I scored 0 points!!
    I take co-codamol issued by the GP so I must be disabled.

    Realistic expectation? I have none when it comes to the DWP. I doubt that the assessment report will be realistic given that past experiences tells me so - expectations, it is best not to expect anything, that way if you do get something it is a bonus.

    I do always take the easy way especially where the DWP are involved. I have more going on in my life than worrying about benefit awards or even preparing for an appeal hearing. I get what I am given and am thankful for whatever it is.

  • twonker
    twonker Posts: 617 Pioneering
    ilovecats said:
    wildlife said:
    @ilovecats please can you say what tests and by whom can we provide to be able to refuse the movements. You talk about the bending. I only managed to touch the very top of my thighs but my assessor wrote "Knees". I had provided an xray report showing DDD in my lower back. As I've said before ALL my results were not what I actually did with some made up that I didn't do. So it's not surprising I want to avoid this happening again. How would you react as an assessor if I told you my last assessor was dishonest. What wording would be accepted or would it not be a good idea to say anything despite my 2 year battle that came to nothing ?  
    You don’t need any proof to be able to refuse the movements. If you don’t want to do to them you don’t have to. 

    If you can sit straight in a chair and rest your hands on your thighs, providing there are no impairments of your arms then you can realistically reach the tops of your knees. Reaching past your knee caps is shins. Then it would be top, mid of bottom shin or too feet.





    That sounds perfectly logical. Having managed to carry out that simple exercise how does it indicate that I should be able to get in and out of an unadapted bath? Likewise how does it also indicate being able to walk for more than 200 metres? The justification to carry out both of those actions was that I could touch my knees whilst sitting down. Baffles me, but hey it's not the end of the world.
  • wildlife
    wildlife Community member Posts: 1,293 Pioneering
    edited April 2019
    Thanks for the reply. I've just tried what you say and yes I can rest my hands on my thighs, even touch my knees sitting down but standing up is a different matter. I'm no expert on which muscles/part of the spine is required to bend but no way can I get any further down than the top of my thighs. Maybe this is another "barmy" assumption made by whoever dreamed up the exercises. 
  • wildlife
    wildlife Community member Posts: 1,293 Pioneering
    I won't get into a discussion as to how you are supposed to put pants and trousers on if you can't reach further than your knees standing or sitting but just to say all I ask at my review is for the results of the MSE to be truthful and accurate. 
    I guess you have to put them over your head and wriggle them down into position? I know that sounds ridiculous but then so does assuming you can dress the lower part of your body because you can touch your knees sitting down. 
  • CockneyRebel
    CockneyRebel Community member Posts: 5,209 Disability Gamechanger
    Long handle grabbers help me to dress lower half, the only thing I haven't found a way around is compression stockings
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • CockneyRebel
    CockneyRebel Community member Posts: 5,209 Disability Gamechanger
    LOL I would rather find a way to put them on easily than score points for having them. Open to any suggestions
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • wildlife
    wildlife Community member Posts: 1,293 Pioneering
    Sorry @CockneyRebel But I need to say it's not just hip and leg problems that stop you (anyone) from bending. I've had 9 abdominal ops, a history of abdo. infections and abcesses plus the big open gall bladder surgery followed by botched keyhole surgery that damaged my small intestines. I'm full of adhesions and permanently bloated. I don't wear socks any time because they make my PN much worse. I do remember visiting an elderly gent during my work as a carer to help him to bed. This included putting compression socks on him. i remember what a struggle it was and I was able bodied at that time.   
  • twonker
    twonker Posts: 617 Pioneering
    ilovecats said:











    I can’t explain the assessors reasoning, being able to touch your knees is only an indication of forward spinal flexion, it doesn’t have much to do with walking unless someone is claiming that their back movement is so bad it restricts them from walking. 

    To get in an out of a bath the assessor is looking for an adequate combination of grip, strength, spinal, hip and knee flexion.

    To use aids, if some of the above is reduced, then they would be thinking, can this person use a step, grab rails and a bath board to access a bath.

    The problem is a lot of people don’t use their PIP to actually buy any aids that could help them. They get given a standard (normally aids in Activity 1, 4, 5 & 6) but then when it come to reassessment they haven’t used their PIP as intended and are still claiming that they cannot wash, cook or even dress themselves and someone has to do it all for them. 
    Yes it was a case of poor back movement and in particular lower spinal injury/hip problems. All of which was evidenced. Part of the justification was having hands on knees whilst sitting.

    No points were given for the bath due to the same justification

    Fortunately for most there is no requirement to spend any of the PIP award on aids etc. The claimant can spend it on anything they like. Some use it to top up their housing benefit, some use it to buy IT equipment for their kids, some use it for more holidays, whilst some use it to pay for a more expensive car. Consequently they would/should still qualify for aids as they would need them and they have not been provided.
     
  • yanhow1
    yanhow1 Community member Posts: 22 Connected
    On Twonka’s last note, I don’t want a shinny new car cos I can’t drive but I do have to travel a 160 mile round trip every three weeks at the moment on top of all other local trips which costs a fortune ( career does all that mileage ),
    3yrs ago I got 10 points for mobility for various reasons, one of them being I said I could walk 50mtrs,  ( 20mtrs was not an option on the form ),

    I said that at the time because I could walk about 30mtrs before the pain was simply too much to bare and I had to stop putting weight through my left side,
    in reality though I could not walk 1mtr without really quite bad pain surging through my left side,
    Is pain on the first step and every step after that enough to fit the 12 point descriptor ?  Obviously with a consultant’s report for evidence.

    what I mean is, should I have to push through the pain to the absolute limit or is the first painful step the limit?
    Is long term pain a good reason not to be able to walk 20mtrs?
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,352 Disability Gamechanger
    I don't understand it when you say "20 metres was not an option on the form 3 years ago" Yes, it was because i've been claiming PIP since 2013 and this has always been on the form.

    e. Can stand and then move more than 1 metre but no more than 20 metres, either aided or unaided, which scores 12 points.


    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • wildlife
    wildlife Community member Posts: 1,293 Pioneering
    I can touch my knees sitting upright without moving any other part of my body so my spine doesn't have to move at all. I do have long arms so how does that show I can dress my lower body? It's ridiculous. I was assessed as not needing help only aids to get in and out of the shower which is over the bath. Now I know why but as described above the logic is totally illogical. I was assessed as not being able to walk more than 50 metres due to pain and poor balance. I'd had 4 falls within the 12 months prior to my assessment. Yet the assessor said I could step over the side of the bath, stand unaided and wash my body and hair using both hands with no problem. Again totally illogical. I've tried a bath board but it's harder to get into position than staying on your feet and you end up not in the water, if you do ever manage to get onto it. So you either get off the board into the bath or stay put to wash either of which requires excellent flexibility to have access to the water needed to wash. Home assessments would benefit from being able to show how difficult bathing is in the bathroom you have like when the OT visits. 
               I too have often wondered where pain comes into walking which also depends what surface you're walking on. An uneven pavement would be more difficult than an even, flat surface for example.  
  • yanhow1
    yanhow1 Community member Posts: 22 Connected
    I don't understand it when you say "20 metres was not an option on the form 3 years ago" Yes, it was because i've been claiming PIP since 2013 and this has always been on the form.

    e. Can stand and then move more than 1 metre but no more than 20 metres, either aided or unaided, which scores 12 points.


    My apologies, my carer gave me the esa copy by mistake, ( I can’t do paperwork )
    I still ticked 50mtrs because I thought it meant: how far can I walk to the absolute limit of my pain threshold.
    nevertheless the question remains: short of paralysis or double amputation what is a sufficient reason to not be able to walk 20mtrs?

    if pain is not a valid reason then I am at a total loss as to what other possible explanation could there be?
  • wildlife
    wildlife Community member Posts: 1,293 Pioneering
    Pain was accepted for me for 50 metres if that helps @yanhow1 I have a neuroma in the ball of my left foot and was undergoing investigations into pain in my right foot. I've recently developed a small very painful lump under my right foot which the GP thinks is a Ganglian Cyst but wants it scanned to make sure. So I don't expect to be assessed as being able to walk at all without pain. Maybe someone else will help with the question of pain when walking.     
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,352 Disability Gamechanger
    Pain is definitely taken into consideration for the "moving around" part of mobility.

    When assessing whether the activity can be carried out reliably, consideration should be given to the manner in which the activity is completed. This includes, but is not limited to, the claimant’s gait, their speed, the risk of falls and symptoms or side effects that could affect their ability to complete the activity, such as pain, breathlessness and fatigue.

    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • CockneyRebel
    CockneyRebel Community member Posts: 5,209 Disability Gamechanger
    You might be able to walk 50 mtrs but can you do so repeatedly, safely, in a timely manner and to an acceptable standard ?
    You must be able to fulfill the above or the descriptor ( c or d ) cannot be applied. You might be able to walk 100 mtrs one day but then be unable to walk 10 mtrs for the following 3 days. Your condition must prevent you completing the activity for the majority of time for the descriptor to be applied
    As to what can cause a claimant not to be able to walk 20 mtrs, many with breathing difficulties or COPD cannot do so. On a bad day I can barely manage 3 steps without a rest
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • twonker
    twonker Posts: 617 Pioneering
    edited April 2019
    wildlife said:
               I too have often wondered where pain comes into walking which also depends what surface you're walking on. An uneven pavement would be more difficult than an even, flat surface for example.  
    If you are talking just about the pain factor, surely it is when you can no longer continue the walk because of pain.
    It's the level of pain I would consider. Many people can walk with the odd twinge or ache which is different to when pain is so overwhelming that you physically cannot carry on. I explained to the assessor that when I reached that point I had to take some Morphine that I always carry around along with my 'Diabetic kit' and inhaler to break through that pain. In reality my pain starts after a few seconds, maybe 5 or 6 steps but I measured it to the point that I could not move any further.
    The result of which I was told that I could walk between 50 and 200 metres which is true.

    At the end of the day it really doesn't matter what you say, the proof is in the pudding so to speak.
    You will have to show with evidence and on the balance of probabilities that you cannot walk the particular distance you have claimed because of the pain factor.

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