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Pip letter and assessment letter

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  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,338 Disability Gamechanger
    @ilovecats

    But if you self-harm around others, or act out aggressively - as demonstrated by commitment to a psychiatric unit - how can they expect you to still work, albeit with support. The nature of ASD is that they will not tolerate people unfamiliar to them. They will react strongly against anyone they do not trust. My nephew is the same. He would have a serious breakdown if his mum wasn't with him 24/7. He is her life-support. In addition, if they believe I need support at work, that would cost the employer a lot of money in funding a support worker to work alongside me, which they would never entertain. Furthermore, employing a support worker to prevent myself from being vulnerable wouldn't help with anxiety in relating to others in general. Even without being taken advantage of, I have evidence backed by the doctor that states relationships in themselves lead to anxiety, depression and even stated this had led to psychosis-NOS on a number of cases. 

    Does anyone know the difference(s) between the support group and the work-related group? For example, constant face-to-face meetings at the job centre, training courses, weekly payments received etc. 
    You are talking about ESA but this thread is about PIP and they are 2 totally different benefits with different criteria.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,338 Disability Gamechanger
    @sceneparade are you being assessed for ESA or PIP? To answer your question in the WRAG you will be expected to attend appointments but won't be expected to look for work but prepare to return to work sometime in the future. If your claim for ESA started after April 2017 then you won't receive any extra money in this group. If your claim started before this date then it's approximately £102 per week, which could possibly increase with premiums depending on circumstances.

    Support Group, you won't be expected to attend any appointments ad they basically leave you alone in this group. Support Group Income Related receives £128.45 per week, this can be increased by another £65.85 per week if you're entitled to severe disability premium.

    Contributions based ESA receives £111.65 per week. Income related top ups are possible depending on circumstances.

    New style ESA support group is £111.65 per week but no income related top ups are payable on this.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • sceneparade
    sceneparade Community member Posts: 93 Courageous
    @poppy123456

    I am currently on contribution-related ESA. So how does this effect me financially? I have looked into it and it states that you should get the following:

    Disability premium: £34.35 per week
    Severe disability premium: £65.85 per week 
    Enhanced disability premium: £16.80 per week

    Would these be paid in addition to the £111.65 per week in the support group? 

    It states this: "If you don’t have enough National Insurance contributions and you don’t have enough money to live on,* you might qualify for income-related ESA.

    You might be entitled to contribution based ESA and an additional amount of income-related ESA, but this will depend on your circumstances."

    But I am confused as to what it means. 

    @kami24 - Have you attended an work capability assessment? If so, what happened? What did they 
    ask? Did you get approved for ESA? 
  • worried33
    worried33 Community member Posts: 492 Pioneering
    edited August 2019
     I fail to see how it can be common knowledge.  People only have each other's experience's to tell each other.  My GP certainly knows a lot more than just what medication I am on. GP's also get access to all notes provided by any hospital visits, they are basically a centralised part of your medical service.

    Of course in situations where you perhaps see a different GP every time you go to surgery or you dont see GP very often, or have a new GP, then obviously yes then the GP wont know much.  So my context was assuming you have had a GP thats been dealing with you for a long time.

    "If they know anything more then it will be because their patient has told them".  Of course any medical professional will need to work on what the patient is telling them, if you only finding things out solely on scans and blood tests then you are operating in a very limited scope.  I just find this attitude bizarre.

    In terms of functional affect, my GP was able to provide information as notes are on my file left from my occupational therapist which was detailed by my GP on the form supplied to the DWP.  Also the GP likely has experience accrued over the years from their collection of patients in terms of how they get affected by various conditions and symptoms.

    Some GPs are very good and thorough, but I accept the quality of any assistance will be highly variable, health service in itself is a lottery.  I dont agree with a generic advice tho telling people to not bother.

    Also in my case my GP provided documented evidence to back up various things I told the assessor myself, e.g. I said I have needed assistance in integrating with society, which was a very short and vague statement, on the form from the GP, she detailed exactly what assistance I had, the professionals I seen, length of treatment, result, diagnosis etc.  None of that would have been there without my GP.
  • worried33
    worried33 Community member Posts: 492 Pioneering
    edited August 2019
    ilovecats said:
    I agree. It’s rare a GP Provides an insightful letter. Normally isn’t just a rehashing of what the claimant says they cannot do or a list of conditions. 

    Often the assessment provider sends the GP a report to fill out. Many don’t even send them back and of the ones that do, I’d say 90% are not filled out with any medical opinion, just a list of meds symptoms. 
    Well you have worked as an assessor so in your case I can understand how you can come to such an opinion, but I was curious how poppy did given she is only a claimant.

    I can accept that many GPs perhaps just either cant be bothered, or simply havent got the information to offer an informed opinion, but I dont think it would be the case for every single GP, thats all.

    What I can tell you my form filled in by my GP had more information and effort put into it than the one one from the HCP that assessed me, was a "lot" more than list of meds and symptoms.

    However one would think even a list of symptoms would be evidence, what happens if the patient tells you that they have symptoms but you dont see them on the day? do you accept their word or would something like a GP confirming those symptoms hold some weight, curious on that one.

    For reference 6 of my 8 points according to my HCP on daily needs were awarded based on my GP supporting evidence, whats your thoughts on that one?

    Specific wording was "verified by GP supplied by OT".
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,338 Disability Gamechanger
    @worried33 as i've said many times before, one of the things on the "i don't want to see list" is letters from a GP. Also my knowledge on the PIP descriptors tells me that a GP will know very little about how your conditions affect you against the descriptors. I've said all i'm going to say on this now and won't comment any further.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • worried33
    worried33 Community member Posts: 492 Pioneering
    edited August 2019
    I am sad you dont want to explain your opinion poppy, sadly that means I cannot take it seriously, which I hope you understand.   (only on this one issue not anything else).

    You are very knowledgeable on the descriptors themselves which I accept, but I dont understand how you can decide how a GP would know how their own patient would be affected, when the GP not only has history with the patient but also access to all reports from medical professionals the patient has seen.  The GP is certainly better placed than a HCP who sees the claimant just once for a brief assessment, however I do accept the point made by cristobal that GP's are not trained to specifically look at benefit descriptors but instead they there to help people get better and manage conditions.  My next question to you would have been if the GP doesnt know, then who does know? but you dont want to say anything else so I will respect that.

    But maybe cristobal or ilovecats can offer an answer to that question should they choose to.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,338 Disability Gamechanger
    @sceneparade it will depends if you're receiving new style ESA or the old contributions based ESA.

    If it's the old Contributions based ESA then it will depend on circumstances....living with partner that works, savings, capital and other income from pensions etc.

    Disability premium isn't paid on ESA, it's only paid when claiming either Income Related JSA or Income support.

    Enhanced disability premium is automatically paid when claiming Income Related ESA in the Support Group.

    Severe disability premium is paid if you live alone, or classed as living alone and no one claims carers allowance for looking after you. You must also be claiming a qualifying benefit such as DLA mid/high rate care or PIP daily living.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • sceneparade
    sceneparade Community member Posts: 93 Courageous
    edited August 2019
    @poppy123456

    So effectively, the new benefits were introduced so that any new claimants would NEVER be able to get additional financial support, unless they were on income-related JSA. What additional help is there fore people getting contribution bases ESA? Is sounds as though income-related ESA or income support = additional payments totally roughly £200 per week, whereas contribution-based ESA = None, totally the basic £111 per week. 

    If I do get my PIP reinstated on appeal, how will this effect my ESA payments? Would I be entitled to the SDP and EDP? What exactly is 'contribution-based' about contribution-based ESA?

    It seems the 'New Style' ESA and the Contribution-Based ESA are the same. 

    "To get ‘new style’ ESA you’ll need to have been an employee or self-employed and paid National Insurance contributions, usually in the last 2 to 3 years. National Insurance credits can also count.

    "You’ll also need to have an illness or disability that affects your ability to work.

    You can only apply for contribution-based ESA if you have an illness or disability that affects your ability to work, and you either:

    • get the severe disability premium, or are entitled to it
    • got or were entitled to the severe disability premium within the last month and are still eligible for it

    You’ll also need to have been an employee or self-employed and paid National Insurance contributions, usually in the last 2 to 3 years. National Insurance credits can also count."


  • worried33
    worried33 Community member Posts: 492 Pioneering
    kami24 said:
    If you have a great GP who knows you very well then it might help but they are very brief in my experience and simply send the medical report and records already done and some are lazy or overworked so don't have time. My GP is awful i moved so have a new surgery and its worse old one much better they vary alot
    I agree, depends on the GP really, I mean if you know your GP is going to be no help then maybe not even worth bothering.  But if you have had your GP for a while and they have a good understanding of your history, then I would say its worth a shot.  If they provide nothing useful, you no worse of than if you didnt ask.

    I dont know about you but, for me when I am filling in forms, and am in an assessment it is inevitable I will miss stuff or even misquote stuff e.g. since my assessment I know I forgot to mention multiple diagnosis, and to me it seems inevitable most claimants will miss perhaps important parts of their symptoms, diagnosis etc., to support their descriptor choice.

    Also a now good friend of mine works with a lot of people who go to him for help, he represents many people at tribunals, and has a lot of experience, he doesnt work for anyone like cab or welfare rights but attends mental health meeting awareness groups, and thats how people get his contact details.  His opinion has always been if you have a supporting GP it doesnt hurt to ask and given his huge experience and the notes on my report from my HCP I will go with that.

    Also I forgot who mentioned it, but I didnt pay for my OT, I got my OT via a referral from my GP and I think the OT was funded by the council.
  • worried33
    worried33 Community member Posts: 492 Pioneering
    edited August 2019
    @poppy123456

    So effectively, the new benefits were introduced so that any new claimants would NEVER be able to get additional financial support, unless they were on income-related JSA. What additional help is there fore people getting contribution bases ESA? Is sounds as though income-related ESA or income support = additional payments totally roughly £200 per week, whereas contribution-based ESA = None, totally the basic £111 per week. 

    If I do get my PIP reinstated on appeal, how will this effect my ESA payments? Would I be entitled to the SDP and EDP? What exactly is 'contribution-based' about contribution-based ESA?
    I dont think poppy mentioned this.

    But you can be on contribution based "and" get a income related topup.

    Basically normally historically what happens is if you qualify for "both" income related and contribution based, you would be given contribution based benefit.  However you can if you pass the means testing, get a income related top up qualification, if you manage to get this, then for the purpose of SDP/EDP, you will be treated as if on income based ESA.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,338 Disability Gamechanger
    @poppy123456

    So effectively, the new benefits were introduced so that any new claimants would NEVER be able to get additional financial support, unless they were on income-related JSA. What additional help is there fore people getting contribution bases ESA? Is sounds as though income-related ESA or income support = additional payments totally roughly £200 per week, whereas contribution-based ESA = None, totally the basic £111 per week. 

    If I do get my PIP reinstated on appeal, how will this effect my ESA payments? Would I be entitled to the SDP and EDP? What exactly is 'contribution-based' about contribution-based ESA?
    As i said Contributions based ESA and New style ESA are different when it comes to receiving any income related top ups.

    Contributions based benefits can be paid regardless of savings/capital and income but Income related top ups are means tested.

    It sounds like you're confused between New style ESA and contributions based ESA and until you know which one you're receiving it's impossible to give any advice. My advice is to speak to a local advice agency near you, this way you can take all of your paper work to them for them to see and they will tell you which one you're claiming. They will also advise you whether you're entitled to any income related top up.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • sceneparade
    sceneparade Community member Posts: 93 Courageous
    @worried33

    Okay, thanks. So I would be receiving the same as claimants on income-related ESA, just that it would fall under contribution-based ESA?
  • worried33
    worried33 Community member Posts: 492 Pioneering
    edited August 2019
    Yes you need to fill in an ESA3 form.

    Basically savings below 16k (under 6k for full entitlement) and practically zero income other than your benefits.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,338 Disability Gamechanger

    Contributions based ESA receives £111.65 per week. Income related top ups are possible depending on circumstances.

    New style ESA support group is £111.65 per week but no income related top ups are payable on this.
    @worried33 there you go, i did advise this..
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,338 Disability Gamechanger
    @sceneparade when did you start your claim for ESA?
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • worried33
    worried33 Community member Posts: 492 Pioneering
    edited August 2019

    Contributions based ESA receives £111.65 per week. Income related top ups are possible depending on circumstances.

    New style ESA support group is £111.65 per week but no income related top ups are payable on this.
    @worried33 there you go, i did advise this..
    Right ok, then he/she can forget what I said then.  Missed that part. Sceneparade am sorry for getting your hopes up wrongly.

    did sceneparade actually say they on the new style ESA?

    The reason I want to verify this is this was quoted.

    "You might be entitled to contribution based ESA and an additional amount of income-related ESA, but this will depend on your circumstances."

    That doesnt sound like something they would put in a letter if there was no IR topups available.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,338 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
    No they didn't say which one they are claiming but they are very similar benefits but the only difference between the 2 is that Income related top ups are available with the one but not the other. You'll be amazed at the people that don't know which one they are claiming simply because they are both contributions based.

    What was quoted in a comment above is what's advised on the internet...
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • worried33
    worried33 Community member Posts: 492 Pioneering
    Yeah so if it is an older claim then my advice might be valid, but obviously as you said if its a new style claim then I am wrong.  I can understand people getting confused.
  • sceneparade
    sceneparade Community member Posts: 93 Courageous
    @poppy123456

    I started my ESA claim in May, but I have paid five years contribution of NI. So I am in the contribution-based ESA. Hopefully that means I still can claim the income-related top-ups too. 

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