working partner

Jacob45
Jacob45 Online Community Member Posts: 4 Listener
in Universal Credit (UC)
Hi, in the legacy ESA system, if your partner (or you) worked over 16 hours, you could not claim.

Is the same true for UC disability element, or is it just the disabled person cannot work over 16 hours?

I'm also wondering because on Working Tax Credits you could get a working disability element, but there seems to be no equivalent on UC.

Thanks very much.

Comments

  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Online Community Member Posts: 64,463 Championing
    If your ESA is all Income Related then any earnings of more than £20 per week that your partner earns will reduce your ESA £1 for £1. If they are working for 24 hours or more per week then your ESA will end.
    If any part of your ESA is contributions based then this won't be affected. If you're not sure then you can ring ESA and they will tell you exactly what your ESA is made up of.
    Yes, there's a disability element of UC.. If you're in the Support Group for ESA and you claimed UC then you would be entitled to an extra £354.28 per month.
    You will also have the work allowance which means a portion of any earnings received during your monthly assessment period will be ignored. Anything over this and your UC reduces by 55%.
    If you claim for help with the rent your work allowance will be £344, if you don't then it will be £573 per month.
    It maybe worth speaking to an advice agency near you for a full benefits check. Start here. https://advicelocal.uk/

  • Jacob45
    Jacob45 Online Community Member Posts: 4 Listener
    poppy123456 said:
    If your ESA is all Income Related then any earnings of more than £20 per week that your partner earns will reduce your ESA £1 for £1. If they are working for 24 hours or more per week then your ESA will end.
    If any part of your ESA is contributions based then this won't be affected. If you're not sure then you can ring ESA and they will tell you exactly what your ESA is made up of.
    Yes, there's a disability element of UC.. If you're in the Support Group for ESA and you claimed UC then you would be entitled to an extra £354.28 per month.
    You will also have the work allowance which means a portion of any earnings received during your monthly assessment period will be ignored. Anything over this and your UC reduces by 55%.
    If you claim for help with the rent your work allowance will be £344, if you don't then it will be £573 per month.
    It maybe worth speaking to an advice agency near you for a full benefits check. Start here. https://advicelocal.uk/


    Thank you. I am talking in an  abstract rather than personal sense, as I am (also!) being asked these questions by a range of people with different circumstances. I am quite knowledgable on UC but admit I am tripping up over some of the eligibility differences.

    Yes should have been clearer, I am talking about income-related ESA. So in old ESA-IR, I am sure that you could not work over 16 hours, even if you were LCW  rather than LCWRA. Whereas of course to claim the disability element of WTC, you had to be working at least 16 hours. So does the UC disability element cover both scenarios I.E. there is no strict working limit for either the disabled or working partner, but just the normal work allowance above which income tapers?

    ..Ok thinking about it I believe this may be a close approximation of truth

    UC disability element -
    max working of 16 hours for disabled partner (some leeway but roughly)
    Partner can work as much as they like, but work allowance applies (increased because of LCW partner)

    So, if that is correct, WTC disability element is essentially done away with, which is in line with my experience of UC (thinking of SDP).

    Interested to hear your thoughts.

    That's all quite a ramble, for which I apologise.



  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Online Community Member Posts: 64,463 Championing
    For ESA the rules are different and it's permitted work, if you're the claimant. For a partner on the claim the rules are totally different and the maximum they can earn is £20 per week, the rest reduces the ESA £1 for £1. If the claimants ESA is part Contributions based then earnings from a partner do not affect this claim.
    Jacob45 said:
    poppy123456 said:
    If your ESA is all Income Related then any earnings of more than £20 per week that your partner earns will reduce your ESA £1 for £1. If they are working for 24 hours or more per week then your ESA will end.
    If any part of your ESA is contributions based then this won't be affected. If you're not sure then you can ring ESA and they will tell you exactly what your ESA is made up of.
    Yes, there's a disability element of UC.. If you're in the Support Group for ESA and you claimed UC then you would be entitled to an extra £354.28 per month.
    You will also have the work allowance which means a portion of any earnings received during your monthly assessment period will be ignored. Anything over this and your UC reduces by 55%.
    If you claim for help with the rent your work allowance will be £344, if you don't then it will be £573 per month.
    It maybe worth speaking to an advice agency near you for a full benefits check. Start here. https://advicelocal.uk/


    UC disability element -
    max working of 16 hours for disabled partner (some leeway but roughly)
    Partner can work as much as they like, but work allowance applies (increased because of LCW partner)

    So, if that is correct, WTC disability element is essentially done away with, which is in line with my experience of UC (thinking of SDP).


    UC is completely different to tax credits. There's no maximum or minimum amount of hours you can or need to work because UC is not based on hours worked and this includes the person claiming LCWRA. It's based on earnings received during your assessment period.
    However, if the work you do contradicts the reasons why you were found to have LCWRA then it could go against you at your next review.
    There's no disability element of UC as such, it's called LCWRA element. The disability element of WTC is completely different to LCWRA.
    SDP has nothing to do with tax credits or UC. This is a disability premium payable on Income Related ESA/JSA or Income Support.
  • calcotti
    calcotti Online Community Member Posts: 10,001 Championing
    edited April 2022
    Jacob45 said: UC disability element - 
    max working of 16 hours for disabled partner (some leeway but roughly)
    No. There is no limit on the hours you can work while receiving the LCWRA element of UC.
  • Jacob45
    Jacob45 Online Community Member Posts: 4 Listener
    calcotti said:
    Jacob45 said: UC disability element - 
    max working of 16 hours for disabled partner (some leeway but roughly)
    No. There is no limit on the hours you can work while receiving the LCWRA element of UC.
    I don't think that's right. See

    'If you are working, you can only be referred for a WCA where your earnings are below a specified amount, or equal to, or exceed that specified amount and you are entitled to one of the following benefits:'

    So someone on contributory ESA (and not PIP etc) working 24 hours will not get the LCWRA element when it expires.

    I get what folk are saying about UC and e.g. TC's being totally different. That's kind of the point. There's going to be a lot of losers when people are moved onto UC. Maybe not initially due to transitional protection, but in the long-run. Anyone getting the WTC and disability element would seem to lose out. It's unlikely they will get the LCWRA.

  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Online Community Member Posts: 64,463 Championing
    edited April 2022
    Jacob45 said:
    calcotti said:
    Jacob45 said: UC disability element - 
    max working of 16 hours for disabled partner (some leeway but roughly)
    No. There is no limit on the hours you can work while receiving the LCWRA element of UC.
    I don't think that's right. See

    'If you are working, you can only be referred for a WCA where your earnings are below a specified amount, or equal to, or exceed that specified amount and you are entitled to one of the following benefits:'

    So someone on contributory ESA (and not PIP etc) working 24 hours will not get the LCWRA element when it expires.

    I get what folk are saying about UC and e.g. TC's being totally different. That's kind of the point. There's going to be a lot of losers when people are moved onto UC. Maybe not initially due to transitional protection, but in the long-run. Anyone getting the WTC and disability element would seem to lose out. It's unlikely they will get the LCWRA.


    Again, your thoughts are not correct. As previously advised when you have already been found to have LCW there's no limit on the amount of hours you can work. If you have LCWRA this is an ongoing award untill a new decision says otherwise.
    For the first time work capability assessment referrals and the 16 x NMW rule, this doesn't apply to those claiming a disability benefit such as PIP or DLA.
    You're also talking about ESA, which is completely different to UC. For ESA then permitted work rules apply, which is less than 16 hours working. If someone claims ESA and works 24 hours per week then they won't be entitled to any ESA, regardless of which ESA they're claiming. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/employment-and-support-allowance-permitted-work-form/permitted-work-factsheet
    You're also comparing WTC to UC and they're completely different benefits.

  • Jacob45
    Jacob45 Online Community Member Posts: 4 Listener
    poppy123456 said:
    Jacob45 said:
    calcotti said:
    Jacob45 said: UC disability element - 
    max working of 16 hours for disabled partner (some leeway but roughly)
    No. There is no limit on the hours you can work while receiving the LCWRA element of UC.
    I don't think that's right. See

    'If you are working, you can only be referred for a WCA where your earnings are below a specified amount, or equal to, or exceed that specified amount and you are entitled to one of the following benefits:'

    So someone on contributory ESA (and not PIP etc) working 24 hours will not get the LCWRA element when it expires.

    I get what folk are saying about UC and e.g. TC's being totally different. That's kind of the point. There's going to be a lot of losers when people are moved onto UC. Maybe not initially due to transitional protection, but in the long-run. Anyone getting the WTC and disability element would seem to lose out. It's unlikely they will get the LCWRA.


    For the first time work capability assessment referrals and the 16 x NMW rule, this doesn't apply to those claiming a disability benefit such as PIP or DLA.

    Yes but my example of contributory ESA expiring stands. If you don't get a disability benefit such as PIP or DLA there is a 16 hours limit (*NMW) for the disabled partner, otherwise they will not get UC LCWRA. For the partner, it looks like there is no working restriction.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Online Community Member Posts: 64,463 Championing
    edited April 2022
    Jacob45 said:
    poppy123456 said:
    Jacob45 said:
    calcotti said:
    Jacob45 said: UC disability element - 
    max working of 16 hours for disabled partner (some leeway but roughly)
    No. There is no limit on the hours you can work while receiving the LCWRA element of UC.
    I don't think that's right. See

    'If you are working, you can only be referred for a WCA where your earnings are below a specified amount, or equal to, or exceed that specified amount and you are entitled to one of the following benefits:'

    So someone on contributory ESA (and not PIP etc) working 24 hours will not get the LCWRA element when it expires.

    I get what folk are saying about UC and e.g. TC's being totally different. That's kind of the point. There's going to be a lot of losers when people are moved onto UC. Maybe not initially due to transitional protection, but in the long-run. Anyone getting the WTC and disability element would seem to lose out. It's unlikely they will get the LCWRA.


    For the first time work capability assessment referrals and the 16 x NMW rule, this doesn't apply to those claiming a disability benefit such as PIP or DLA.

    Yes but my example of contributory ESA expiring stands. If you don't get a disability benefit such as PIP or DLA there is a 16 hours limit (*NMW) for the disabled partner, otherwise they will not get UC LCWRA. For the partner, it looks like there is no working restriction.

    Contributions based ESA/New style ESA Support Group doesn't end and neither does LCWRA for UC. Both are ongoing awards until a new decision says otherwise. You whole thoughts on this are simply not correct.
    Someone transferring to UC from ESA and they're in the Support Group will automatically be entitled to the LCWRA element from the start of their claim. So again, the 16xNMW limit doesn't apply.
  • calcotti
    calcotti Online Community Member Posts: 10,001 Championing
    You are asking a 'hypothetical' question but muddling up different things.
    There is an earnings limit which prevents a referral for a Work capability Assessment on UC unless a disability benefit is already in place.
    Once LCWRA is awarded there is no working restriction while receiving LCWRA - which is different to ESA which is subject to the permitted work rules.
  • Sue_Alumni
    Sue_Alumni Scope alumni Posts: 484 Empowering
    That's right but if a claimant in receipt of UC LCWRA starts work that is likely to trigger a new work capability assessment and, depending on the circumstances, they risk losing LCWRA and possibly LCW. 
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Online Community Member Posts: 64,463 Championing
    Sue_Scope said:
    That's right but if a claimant in receipt of UC LCWRA starts work that is likely to trigger a new work capability assessment and, depending on the circumstances, they risk losing LCWRA and possibly LCW. 

    I wouldn't go as far as saying it's "likely." it will depend on the reasons why they were found to have LCW/LCWRA. There's lots of people that work and continue to claim either of those. 
    If the work they do contradicts the reasons why they were found to have LCW then it may prompt another assessment and it may go against them once the decision's been made.
  • Sue_Alumni
    Sue_Alumni Scope alumni Posts: 484 Empowering
    I think there are some grounds for caution as if someone has LCWRA in their UC award it is because it is recognized that they cannot carry out any kind of work or work related activity due to their disabilities. Sometimes the DWP does not fully explore the nature of the work and the full circumstances of the individual and would see the new job as an indication that the claimant's health conditions have improved and require a work capability assessment.to be carried out. If someone has LCW and takes on a job then the situation is slightly different. The DWP are less likely to require a work capability assessment depending on the job and hours undertaken and the nature of the individual's disabilities.

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