PIP and hearings aids

honeyhoney · December 2023

Hi all

Can hearing aids be used in Food Preparation activities as aids or appilances?
I can't hear the alarm when I'm in the kitchen without them?

I'm starting to understand that this whole PIP process is a "play on words"

I tried to use real-life examples in my application, hoping that the assessor would come to appropriate conclusions, but so far it has not worked.

It would be nice if any hearing aid users could shed some light on the descriptors.

tracy1974 · December 2023

Well I wear my hearing aids when I'm at work and there are always lots of people chatting and music playing and I can always hear the bell at the back door of my work and it's right out the back of the store I hope this helps

honeyhoney · December 2023

Thanks @tracy1974

tracy1974 · December 2023

No problem I hope it has helped

honeyhoney · December 2023

tracy1974 said:

No problem I hope it has helped

To be honest, my brain doesn't work well due to mental problems.
I have to figure it all out.
I am at the MR stage and I have to pass it by January 11, 2024. I hope I'll be on time

tracy1974 · December 2023

I wish you the very best of luck with everything you are doing ❤️

yanni · December 2023

I have severe / profound hearing loss and wear hearing aids.

I haven’t included this descriptor in my own claims as I had enough points from other descriptors but I can see that there is an argument that you need your hearing aids to keep you safe when cooking:

There has already been a legally binding decision that if you can’t hear a smoke alarm without hearing aids when washing / bathing then you can’t do this activity safely so therefore you need either an aid or appliance or supervision to alert you to a fire.

This aid or appliance or supervision isn’t helping you wash, its purpose is to keep you safe by alerting you to a fire.

I can’t see that there is any difference between a flashing strobe smoke alarm in a bathroom and a hearing aid to help you hear a audible / normal smoke alarm in a kitchen; they both alert you to a fire and both meet the definition of an aid or appliance.

Smoke alarms alert you to the presence of a potential or small fire so you can act to stop it becoming a big fire and / or get yourself and others to safety. If you can’t hear the alarm you will not have this early warning so you are at a greater risk of being injured than someone with normal hearing.

The DWP’s argument will probably be that you would either see or smell burning / smoke and be alerted that way. However to see something you need to be looking at it and you could have turned away to prepare other elements of the meal and so not see that something is smoking / on fire.

In terms of smelling something burning, there may be other smells masking the burning / smoke especially if you are frying or roasting or cooking something with strong smells. An open window or extractor fan may reduce the smell as well.

I would also argue there is a greater chance of a fire happening when cooking than when bathing. It is very easy to put an empty saucepan back on a hot hob or a greasy tray back in a hot oven or leave a tea towel or food packaging on a hot surface by mistake.

I previously posted some information about PIP descriptors for someone with profound hearing loss which may be of help:

https://forum.scope.org.uk/discussion/comment/701015#Comment_701015

honeyhoney · December 2023

Thank you @yanni for the valuable post and link. It will definitely help me a lot.

I actually started studying the whole process from scratch with guide 2.1 for assessors

If I fully understand it and come to the conclusion that I qualify for PIP,
I will continue with my MR.

honeyhoney · December 2023

one more thing came to my mind, after reading the "guide"

... if there is a gas boiler in my kitchen,

I cannot hear the CO alarm without hearing aids, therefore the hearing aid should be treated as an aid because carbon monoxide is odorless

... Do I think right ?

nasturtium · December 2023

Hello honeyhoney

The activity of preparing a meal involves preparing OR cooking a simple meal at waist height.

You need to do this "Reliably" and that is safely, repeatedly, in a reasonable time and to an acceptable standard.

So if you need to use timers in the kitchen to help with food cooking times then you might be awarded 2 points for needing to use the aid of a timer for people with hearing problems to cook a meal to an acceptable standard. https://www.deaftalk.co.uk/for-deaf-timer-alerts.htm

Of course it depends on your limitations but this is just an a idea and something to think about and there maybe other aids that could also help you around the kitchen.

Nasturtium

honeyhoney · December 2023

Thanks @nasturtium for the suggestions and link. It will definitely be useful.

I have to write my MR as a completely NEW claim.

I just got the HP report but I'm not going to take all the nonsense that is written there: such as:
I CANT't cook I CAN't use a gas stove but I CAN peel vegetables sitting down and use a microwave,
and then it recommends "zero"

after all, the microwave and the stool are AIDS

so I should recommend 2 points

I think I also made a few "stylistic" mistakes in my application, i.e. I based it on examples from my life, just like WCA.
I just checked the box and wrote down what happened to me, that's all. No emphasis on safety, acceptable standard etc.

The only thing I still need is some light on how to formulate it stylistically:

My thinking is this:

1. because of XYZ....

2. on average 4/7 days a week

3. I am unable to perform (ABC DESCRIPTOR)

4. the last time I wanted to do (ABC DESCRYPTOR) it happened (real life examples)

5. the above clearly shows that I cannot execute (ABC DESCRIPTOR)

it would be nice if someone guided me how to formulate these answers, because now I see the differences between WCA and PIP

chiarieds · December 2023

I don't think there's any formula for writing a MR. The important thing to do, as you have been doing, is describe your recent anecdotal evidence (i.e. at the time of your assessment, or just prior), in your own words, & if you cannot do any of the descriptors 'reliably.'

Yanni has also raised the same points as I, that due to severe hearing loss then you should consider both the 'washing & bathing' & 'planning a journey' descriptors. I'm also pleased you have been looking at the PIP assessment guide part 2 (the section on 'reliability' especially I'm sure you'll have found helpful).

As you've mentioned, you should normally say if you have problems the majority of days, which could be 4 days a week, but, with some, the safety aspect is more important such as you've already written about with the 'preparing food' descriptor. It would be unusual if you burnt food several days a week, but this incident describes what potential harm could occur. Similarly when washing & bathing it would be unusual for a smoke alarm to go off several times a week which you'd fail to hear, but the potential of harm to yourself is there every time unless you have supervision.

I wouldn't mention point 5. personally as it's up to the decision maker to literally decide.

honeyhoney · December 2023

Thanks @chiarieds I'm starting to understand what "Reliability" (I am reading this guide) means and why the assessor uses the word 'STAR' in his report

"S"afely "T"o an "A"cceptable standard "R"epeatedly

I also know what descriptors to refer to

My question is rather (I don't know if I'll express it correctly because of my English)
from a technical point of view.

How to start each descriptor e.g

Activity 1, preparing food

"I need supervising to prepare a simple meal because without it... "

Then explain why and give real life examples

is that correct ?

chiarieds · December 2023

I'd suggest, I disagree with the decision to not award me points for x descriptor. (You are doing amazingly well as English is not your first language). Then go on as to why you disagree, & exactly why you feel you should have been awarded points.

You're perhaps overthinking.... there's no right way to do this other than the words you feel most comfortable using. Keep giving those real world anecdotal incidences to illustrate the difficulties you face.

honeyhoney · December 2023

chiarieds said:

I'd suggest, I disagree with the decision to not award me points for x descriptor. (You are doing amazingly well as English is not your first language). Then go on as to why you disagree, & exactly why you feel you should have been awarded points.
You're perhaps overthinking.... there's no right way to do this other than the words you feel most comfortable using. Keep giving those real world anecdotal incidences to illustrate the difficulties you face.

Thanks, that's exactly the answer I was looking for

... if it's about English, at least I understand hmmm 95% of what is written without translation,
but Google helps me a bit when typing it in

too little practice

Besides, during 20 years of working in the UK as a forklift driver, I didn't have much time to write poems

... although 12 years ago I passed and I have an adult level 2 certificate in English and Maths

honeyhoney · December 2023

chiarieds said:

I'd suggest, I disagree with the decision to not award me points for x descriptor. (You are doing amazingly well as English is not your first language). Then go on as to why you disagree, & exactly why you feel you should have been awarded points.
You're perhaps overthinking.... there's no right way to do this other than the words you feel most comfortable using. Keep giving those real world anecdotal incidences to illustrate the difficulties you face.

Thanks, that's exactly the answer I was looking for

... if it's about English, at least I understand hmmm 95% of what is written without translation,
but Google helps me a bit when typing it in

too little practice

... although 12 years ago I passed and I have an adult level 2 certificate in English and Maths

poppy123456 · December 2023

A microwave isn't an aid but a perching stool will be. I also note from a previous comment you wrote what happened when using a kettle but a kettle isn't considered in the preparing a meal, same as carrying food or pans around the kitchen. Please try to keep it relevant to the PIP descriptors when wrting those real world incidents.

honeyhoney · December 2023

poppy123456 said:

A microwave isn't an aid but a perching stool will be. I also note from a previous comment you wrote what happened when using a kettle but a kettle isn't considered in the preparing a meal, same as carrying food or pans around the kitchen. Please try to keep it relevant to the PIP descriptors when wrting those real world incidents.

Thanks poppy123456 I've read your advice many times, I even briefly read the "guide 2.1" you always link to.

To be honest, 3 months ago I didn't know what PIP was. I did a "self-test" and it turned out that I can't do it, I can't do it, so I should apply

And it was my mistake to focus only on my disabilities/diagnoses, which is not addressed to PIP at all.

Currently, I started reading "Guide 2.1..." again, but this time "THE CAREFULLY"

I read 1-2 pages a day, but the further I delve, the wider my eyes open and I begin to understand the nature of PIP.

All in all, it doesn't seem that difficult IF YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT "RELIABILITY" MEANS.

I come to the conclusion that:

Understanding what RELIABILITY + means

Situations that have happened to you and which RELATE TO INDIVIDUAL DESCRIPTORS = SUCCESS

poppy123456 · December 2023

The PIP self test isn't reliable at all unless you fully understand the PIP descriptors. The only time i will ever post a link to that is when someone has the assessment report and it's easier to work out any points that maybe recommended.

It's not just the reliability, it's everything else you need to understand too.

honeyhoney · December 2023

poppy123456 said:

It's not just the reliability, it's everything else you need to understand too.

I know what you mean and I fully agree.

It is not possible for an ordinary disabled person to obtain this award without the advice of a specialist. Unless he really takes the time to understand these complexities and pitfalls.

In my opinion, this whole process has been reduced to absurdity.
You have to treat it like, for example, a court hearing, where there is a battle of arguments between the parties, every word can be used against you.

The other side uses such arguments against you that you don't know whether to laugh or cry.
For example, an ordinary claimant (me) writes truthfully that I have problems managing my budget and gives specific examples of when

I did not pay bills or impulsively bought unnecessary things on the Internet.

And he tells me that although I haven't driven a car for 9 months due to my health,
but when I did drive I paid for fuel and that's why I don't have any problems NOW and "0"

****?

poppy123456 · December 2023

honeyhoney said:

It is not possible for an ordinary disabled person to obtain this award without the advice of a specialist. Unless he really takes the time to understand these complexities and pitfalls.

I disagree. There's many people who successfully claim PIP without expert help.

honeyhoney said:

In my opinion, this whole process has been reduced to absurdity.
You have to treat it like, for example, a court hearing, where there is a battle of arguments between the parties, every word can be used against you.

It's important to remember that a Tribunal is not a court and you're not on trial. Some hearings are held in court buildings but that doesn't mean it's a court. If you go in thinking it's a battle of arguments then you're wrong because it's not.

What you need to do is focus on the weakness in your evidence and not the strength of theirs.

honeyhoney said:

The other side uses such arguments against you that you don't know whether to laugh or cry.
For example, an ordinary claimant (me) writes truthfully that I have problems managing my budget and gives specific examples of when

This is why you need to put the assessment report to one side and forget about it because that isn't going to get you a PIP award. You're making it more complicated that what it really is.

PIP and hearings aids

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