2nd PIP claim refused ADHD & Autism, can I put a MR in for my first claim?

AngMavAuDHD

Hi everyone

My name is Angela, I found these forums last week after receiving progress texts from DWP. 

I tried to claim PIP back in Feb 23 and it got refused, I was so upset I threw the letter away because I literally couldn't mentally deal with it and forgot about it. I didn't even think to do a MR at the time.

I am claiming for ADHD & Autism, OCD, severe anxiety, depression & some PTSD.

My first claim I didn't even have my official diagnosis for ADHD/Autism but now I do.

After still really struggling everyday & thought I would apply again so I called in July & applied for PIP again, they sent the forms.

It took me a couple of months to even look at the forms let alone start them & I had to get a couple of extensions.

When calling for my last extension they offered me an assessment the same week due to a cancellation, which I took.

I eventually hyper focused for a couple of days & completed the forms & sent them off. But they hadn't reached the assessor in time for my assessment.

I put so much into these forms I really shared a lot about how everything affects me every day & as you must all know its such a tough thing to do & share.

During my assessment I really struggled to explain everything as I always do, I tried to read off my notes. I felt I got a lot across but also missed things out.
I had a text the next day to say they received the report so I called & asked for a copy.

He had missed so many things off that I felt would have been important, & also said things like because I can drive a car etc or because I passed my driving test (15 years ago) or because I went to mainstream school (25 years ago!)

Because I have 2 jobs he said I can manage when in fact I can't manage 2 jobs & I hide all my work & I told him I am only just about doing 1 of my jobs & that is because of reasonable work adjustment I mainly work from home with flexible hours & time to rest & recover if I need to.
I have been in constant meltdowns every day - burnouts for months & have recently had a bad mental breakdown. But he failed to mention that in the report.
There is a lot more but I am aware of how long this post is now & even I find it hard to read other peoples long posts. 

He did recommend 6 points for daily living in his report but I think I should have got a lot more. 2 preparing food, 2 dressing/undressing & 2 for engaging with others face to face.

On Friday morning (6/10/23) I received the text to say a decision has not been made
I called to check if they had even received my forms & they had the week before.
Then on Saturday (7/10/23) I received the letter saying they have all the info they need.

After spending literally my whole weekend reading every single post on this & other forums I really though that I may be awarded something & have been consumed with so much anxiety that I had to call.

I called this afternoon & was told that my claim had in fact been refused
I should receive my letter this week.

So now I am going to go for a MR, I have seen a lot of posts on here with advice about MR so I will really try spend my time doing it properly.
But I really did think I had given a lot of info in my original claim that would be enough for an award so I am not sure what else they want from me.
Maybe I gave too much info, about 10 extra hand written pages.

I was also wondering if I call for a MR could I ask for it to be for the first claim in Feb 23 because at the time the anxiety & stress of that first claim, I just couldn't even think about it again & I feel I wish I had seen this forum back then because of all the amazing advice & stories shared on here. I didn't know you actually had 13 months for MR with good reason.

I am going to call in the morning to ask about it but I was wondering if anyone had experienced similar & had maybe been able to MR their first pip. And alive & tips on MR for ADHD/ASD/OCD/Anxiety etc.

Thanks for reading & I look forward to hearing any advice or stories!

Ang

poppy123456

You can request the MR for the first claim but because you then started a new claim after that then if you're successfully awarded it will only be up until the date of your 2nd claim. You will then you need to request the MR for the 2nd claim. It's more complicated because you started a new claim.

Starting a new claim when you've been refused isn't always the best idea, as you've probably read on here. This is because they are likely to refuse again if you use the same evidence you previously used.

10 pages of written evidence is ok but it depends on what information you gave exactly. Was the information relevant to the PIP descriptors? Some people tend to give their life story, which is too much info. 

It's entirely up to you whether you request it for the 1st or 2nd claim or both. Do also remember that it's not about a diagnosis, what matters is how those conditions affect you against the PIP descriptors. They will also not be able to take into consideration any worsening of condition. They will only consider what your conditions were like at the time the original assessment took place (for each individual claim)

When requesting the MR if you didn't give a couple of real world incidents of exactly what happened the last time you attempted each descriptor that applies to you when you filled out the form then i'd advise you to do that. 

You should also add detailed information such as where you were, what exactly happened, did anyone see it and what the consequences were.

chiarieds

Hi @AngMavAuDHD - great you're now joining in with your first post after looking around the forum. Altho you can do a MR within 13 months, you then claimed PIP again, so I would wait for your actual decision letter for your more recent claim, & then base your MR on that.

In the meanwhile you can prepare for a MR, but please don't ring to ask for one rather put it in writing. This for 2 reasons, if you ring, then this starts off your MR, & you'd be just talking to a call handler, not the DWP, & you can't be sure they'd write things down as you'd wish. Secondly, if you put it in writing, you can be sure of the content, & you give yourself more time to do this well.

Remember PIP is not about any diagnosis, but rather how your disability affects certain activities of daily living &/mobility the majority of the time. Have a look again at the activities/descriptors that are looked at: https://www.mentalhealthandmoneyadvice.org/en/welfare-benefits/pip-mental-health-guide/help-with-your-pip-claim/how-to-fill-in-the-pip-form/    altho about the PIP form, this may be helpful in showing where you have difficulties, & why.
With your MR you should say where you think you should have got points, & why giving a couple of recent, detailed examples as to the difficulty you face for each applicable descriptor, i.e. when did it happen, where, what happened, did anyone see this, & were there any consequences to attempting/doing an activity?
Say if you can't do an activity 'reliably,' i.e. safely, to an acceptable standard, repeat as often as one would reasonably expect, or if it takes you much longer than someone without a disability.
Put your name & National Insurance number on each page. Keep a copy, & get a free Certificate of Posting from your Post Office when sending it off.

AngMavAuDHD

Hi Poppy & @chiarieds, many thanks for taking the time to reply & so quickly with so much info, I really appreciate it!

I will only do a MR on my recent claim then that seems like way too much hassle to then have go through it again for the 2nd so thanks for advising on that.
I will of course only start once I receive the decision letter hopefully this week & I will do it in writing.
I realise now that starting a new claim wasn't the best idea but its so hard when you have no clue about PIP & the process & have no one to help me, but now I do thanks to this brilliant forum.

I did use a couple of real world examples but maybe there was not enough detail in them or even too much info, so I will have a good think & make sure I put enough information that is too the point & relevant to each descriptor & add dates & examples etc. 

I thought I did use information relevant to the PIP descriptors but I also think I may have babbled off & written too much about other things in the wrong parts - like my life story as mentioned above. We will see when the decision letter arrives! I didn't mention the actual diagnosis much more of how everything affects me. 

I will be sure to look at the link above about how to fill in the PIP form. I thought I had tried to look before at many things & advice but my ADHD makes its hard to read a lot of info like that & take it all in but I will really try to focus & maybe get help because this is so important to get right this time. Although now I am worried because I applied again rather than MR in the first place & that could go against me but I guess what's done is done.

Would it be advisable to say I received help & advice on the MR because going from a babbled 20 page handwritten form to a more to the point MR form they might not believe it is from me!

It really does take it out of you doesn't it, the anxiety off all this is too much but I don't want to give up now.

Thanks again!

Ang  

poppy123456

AngMavAuDHD said:

Would it be advisable to say I received help & advice on the MR because going from a babbled 20 page handwritten form to a more to the point MR form they might not believe it is from me!

I don't think there's any need to mention that. Even if it wasn't from you, it makes no difference. Many people have help filling out forms and for MR/Tribunal stage.  

I do agree, that it's very easy to get distracted and mention other things in your life when filling out the forms.

chiarieds

Don't now worry about your first claim; it wont adversely affect this one. I do hope you find the link helpful, as it strikes me as a good one, even if it just reminds you on a couple of descriptors where you need help. Sometimes we're just so used to coping that you don't think that a person without any disabilities just wouldn't have to do that.

You don't have to explain anything with your MR other than where you need help, & exactly why. And yes, the devil is in the detail!

Do come back with any questions, & thank you for your kind words.

nasturtium

poppy123456 said:

AngMavAuDHD said:

Would it be advisable to say I received help & advice on the MR because going from a babbled 20 page handwritten form to a more to the point MR form they might not believe it is from me!

I don't think there's any need to mention that. Even if it wasn't from you, it makes no difference. Many people have help filling out forms and for MR/Tribunal stage.  

I do agree, that it's very easy to get distracted and mention other things in your life when filling out the forms.

This is just a thought I had after reading this thread.

If you had help with your form filling then it might be useful to ask the person who helped you to fill in your form to write you a supporting letter to explain in detail why you needed help because if you have problems with form filling or understanding then the supporting letter could be used as evidence to back up your problems.

Nasturtium

poppy123456

nasturtium said:

poppy123456 said:

AngMavAuDHD said:

Would it be advisable to say I received help & advice on the MR because going from a babbled 20 page handwritten form to a more to the point MR form they might not believe it is from me!

I don't think there's any need to mention that. Even if it wasn't from you, it makes no difference. Many people have help filling out forms and for MR/Tribunal stage.  

I do agree, that it's very easy to get distracted and mention other things in your life when filling out the forms.

This is just a thought I had after reading this thread.

If you had help with your form filling then it might be useful to ask the person who helped you to fill in your form to write you a supporting letter to explain in detail why you needed help because if you have problems with form filling or understanding then the supporting letter could be used as evidence to back up your problems.

Nasturtium

Yes, a very good point here, thanks!

AngMavAuDHD

@nasturtium that is a good idea, thank you!

AngMavAuDHD

Hi @Deppi
Thank you for your reply, that is so true. 

They really didn't understand Autism back then especially in girls, when I think back to everything I remember of school none of it was good & every single day was a struggle. Looking back it makes me feel so sad for 'little Ang' & all the other little girls out there who struggled all through school but masked everyday without realising but knowing you felt so different and never understanding why. 

I will definitely include that information on my MR!

Jimm_Scope

As someone with ADHD I understand a lot of the struggle you've gone through. I myself have had people help me fill out my forms and write me letters for PIP evidence. Including my therapist as well (since the DWP rarely bother contacting them anyway even if put in the form).

Please let us know how your MR goes, and if it isn't successful try to not worry! There's the tribunal appeal as well, which has a much higher success rate.

AngMavAuDHD

Hi all, I received my decision letter and as expected not granted an award.

I did receive the 6 points as mentioned above.

I am now going to prepare my MR.

A couple of questions, I had mentioned in my assessment that I couldn't handle my 2 jobs & that I wasn't actually doing them properly. Causing me huge distress & anxiety & have had so much time off. I have really good support following my work adjustment from the The Brain Injury charity I work for, I rarely go in & when I do I am supported & the rest I WFH but with support as well.

My second job was for a gym which I have since handed in my notice, is it ok to mention this in the MR? Because it's a change since my assessment although I did mention all of this but it hasn't been mentioned in the assessor report.

Also I know I was advised to use real life example, but I am now worried about writing too much & using too much info but it will be hard to explain things without it all. 

It also said that I manage my therapy & conditions but I don't & can't & this wasn't mentioned in the report!

They also said that I have a job so I can manage my own finances but actually I cannot manage them at all. And its totally different to being able to manage my private finances which I hide away from as apposed to doing a job for someone else if that makes any sense.

I talked about my anxiety when travelling alone & that I never have a stress free journey for many reasons & there is always an incident of some sorts & the anxiety I have planning a journey & parking anxiety etc & they have said no evidence of OPD. So how can I prove this without being really long winded?

And the things I have been score 2 points for I know I should have been scored more but its so hard to explain things in a way that they will understand without me going on too much!

And if I don't have physical proof for how things affect me & managing daily life on bad days which is most days, I will be adding a bit more info in bullet points to each descriptor while this be a sufficient way to to the MR.

I hope this makes sense & I know its a lot of questions, I just want to get this right.

Thanks

Ang 

Albus_Scope

Heya @AngMavAuDHD, sorry to hear they didn't score you high enough, it seems to be a very normal thing for the DWP to do. 

I found it best to fill in the forms from the view point of you on a bad health day.  That way you can show that you do struggle, even if you do have some days that are less of an issue.  As long as you're showing how your issues affect each descriptor, you can add as much extra information as you think you may need.  Personally, I'd say it's better to add too much information, than not give enough. 

AngMavAuDHD

Thank you for the message @Albus_Scope
I'm hoping my ADHD lets me make a start on this MR this week & I will be going through all of the above messages

poppy123456

Albus_Scope said:

I found it best to fill in the forms from the view point of you on a bad health day.  That way you can show that you do struggle, even if you do have some days that are less of an issue.  As long as you're showing how your issues affect each descriptor, you can add as much extra information as you think you may need.  Personally, I'd say it's better to add too much information, than not give enough. 

No no no, please don’t do that, it’s not a good thing and certainly not the best advice to give, sorry. I know you meant well.

PIP is how you’re affected the majority and of the days over a 12 month period. 

What you should do is give a couple of real world incidents of exactly what happened the last time you attempted each descriptor that applies to you. Adding detailed information such as where you were, what exactly happened, did anyone see it and what the consequences were. 

There is such a thing as too much information especially if it’s not relevant to the descriptors. They do not need to know your life story, keep it relevant. 

The same applies to any extra evidence you have. Sending multiple pieces of evidence all saying the same thing isn’t good and not helpful. 

chiarieds

Oh dear @Albus_Scope has indeed unwittingly given poor advice. As poppy correctly says, PIP is about how you are the majority of days.

Because people may get PIP whether they work, or not, perhaps this is why in some ways your work was considered (but often you get just standard 'cut & paste' replies, i.e. because you work you can do a,b,c), but some aspects of your work haven't been mentioned in the assessor's report.

I wouldn't mention that you're no longer working in your 2nd job with your MR; I think you realise this, as you should be sticking to how you were at the time of your assessment.

Now step back; you've got 6 points, so where do you feel you could get at least 2 more? Managing therapy isn't always a great one, tho you may gain 1 point; harder to get more unless you need supervision, prompting or assistance for up to 3.5 hours a week.

So concentrate on where else you should have got points, & why.

Try typing your reasons into a word processor keeping it all relevant to the actual PIP descriptors. Juggle around with this till on average it might be half a page if printed out; some might be longer, others a little shorter, & that's OK. Avoid words like 'good' or 'bad' days, so you might say most days I struggle with this, but on a better day I can attempt this. Try to indicate how many days in a week, or how many weeks in a month you face such difficulties, or how is the decision maker to know? If your condition fluctuates, then say so.

Remember PIP is about the help you need, even if you don't get that help.

Importantly you don't need physical proof of the difficulties you face; your evidence is definitely the most important.

Please do try to give those detailed recent (at the time of your assessment) responses as poppy has also said. If that's difficult, try to say when you last attempted an activity what exactly went wrong, why, & again describe the consequences.

Albus_Scope

Apologies, definitely listen to Poppy and Chiarieds!   

I was going on advice given to me by another person who was helping me with my PIP forms.  That's possibly why it went all the way to tribunal. 

AngMavAuDHD

Hi @chiarieds I hope you are having a nice day.

I have a quick questions, you said above:

"Remember PIP is about the help you need, even if you don't get that help."

Would it be advisable to say what help or support the person applying wants because of their difficulties for example if someone can't manage to clean their home then they would like to use the extra PIP money for a cleaner? Or just explains the difficulties but not recommend a solution they want.

Hope that makes sense!

Thank you :  

chiarieds

Hi @AngMavAuDHD - thank you for your kind words. I see where you're coming from, but do keep your answers relevant to the PIP descriptors, & keeping your home clean isn't one of them, nor would a decisioin maker be concerned how you spent your money if awarded PIP.

Have a look again at the link I gave above, hoping to keep you on the straight & narrow path, without digressing: https://www.mentalhealthandmoneyadvice.org/en/welfare-benefits/pip-mental-health-guide/help-with-your-pip-claim/how-to-fill-in-the-pip-form/

Help you need, even if you don't get it, needs to relate to one or more of the PIP activities/descriptors you don't need mention a solution, just I need help/support, etc with a,b,c.

AngMavAuDHD

@chiarieds thank you so much for your quick response, everything taken on board!

chiarieds

You're most welcome @AngMavAuDHD