Scoliosis — Scope | Disability forum
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Scoliosis

pip12345
pip12345 Community member Posts: 31 Listener
edited December 2023 in PIP, DLA, and AA
I've just had a visit to a chiropractor. He diagnosed me with scoliosis.

The scoliosis effects my posture/gait. I have hip arthritis like symptoms in knee/hip/groin. 

This all effects my mobility. I was unaware of all of the above as I've had this since childhood.

In my pip2 claim form I have said mobility causes arm pain which I am being investigated for.

The decision has arrived stating I have no lower limb restrictions and therefore will not be considered for mobility.

I am in MR stage. The scoliosis, hip and knee pain was not mentioned in my pip2.

However, I would like to link it to making my arm pain worse due to pressure caused by poor gait.

Would it be recommended to do this in MR/tribunal stage? Or should I submit this as a new condition to DWP?

Note that I have had standard daily living awarded with 11 points. I am putting in an MR to get more points to get up to enhanced.
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Comments

  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 52,180 Disability Gamechanger
    I can see why you didn't score any points for the mobility part because the moving around part doesn't take into consideration your arms.

    If you definitely mentioned your mobility previously then yes you can give extra information now. Is there any reason why you didn't mention the pain in your knees and hips previously?

    Please be aware that because you already have a PIP award then any changes you report will mean you will be sent another form to fill in and return and another assessment is most likely. Once the decision is made your award could either stay the same, be increased or stop completely.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • pip12345
    pip12345 Community member Posts: 31 Listener
    I'm confused by your answer.
    Do you recommend including the scoliosis in MR or report as new condition? I have not mentioned the condition as I wasn't diagnosed officially. I have had MRI for knee previously.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 52,180 Disability Gamechanger
    I'm not sure what you're confused about. In your first comment you said this..
    pip12345 said:


    In my pip2 claim form I have said mobility causes arm pain which I am being investigated for.

    It will depend on what exactly you said. If your mobility was mentioned then yes you can include it. Though i'm still confused why you mentioned your arms for mobility, which is about your ability to stand and move around.

    PIP is not about a diagnosis. Many people claim it without one. It's vital that you always include all the information so the right award can be given.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • Wilf60
    Wilf60 Community member Posts: 37 Connected
    pip12345 said:
    I've just had a visit to a chiropractor. He diagnosed me with scoliosis.

    The scoliosis effects my posture/gait. I have hip arthritis like symptoms in knee/hip/groin. 

    This all effects my mobility. I was unaware of all of the above as I've had this since childhood.

    In my pip2 claim form I have said mobility causes arm pain which I am being investigated for.

    The decision has arrived stating I have no lower limb restrictions and therefore will not be considered for mobility.

    I am in MR stage. The scoliosis, hip and knee pain was not mentioned in my pip2.

    However, I would like to link it to making my arm pain worse due to pressure caused by poor gait.

    Would it be recommended to do this in MR/tribunal stage? Or should I submit this as a new condition to DWP?

    Note that I have had standard daily living awarded with 11 points. I am putting in an MR to get more points to get up to enhanced.
    As you probably know you don't get awarded PIP for having a condition. I know people who suffer with Multiple Sclerosis and they don't receive PIP because the decease doesn't affect them enough to qualify.

    You now have a diagnoses of 
    scoliosis. This condition could well affect your mobility (and certainly your arms) but that would depend on the degree of the diagnoses. How badly twisted is your spine? Is there any evidence of arthritis? Is this condition affecting your gait?

    If you have any of this evidence then yes by all means include it in your MR as additional information
  • pip12345
    pip12345 Community member Posts: 31 Listener
    I have a mild case of scoliosis- misaligned hips and shoulders.

    I have a mild/moderate case of lumbar lordosis. 

    I can send a picture of these both along with my MR.

    My chiropractor has for some reason backtracked when he learned I want a letter for pip. He is now saying he reckons is caused by incorrect excercise and injury. I've told him I e had this condition since childhood. Nevermind.

    My gait is effected by the above.

  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 52,180 Disability Gamechanger
    Pictures are not helpful because it doesn't tell them anything about how your conditions affect you. Please keep it relevant to the descriptors and how you're affected.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • pip12345
    pip12345 Community member Posts: 31 Listener
    Ok.
    Well I have groin, hip and referred knee pain.
    Most likely arthritis.
    I think it's best I get x-rays done. As it seems the arthritis is not allowing my steps to absorb shock which is excarbating my arm pain. 

    Buy I think with the arthritis diagnoses, this should be enough evidence them I'm not able to walk reliably. 
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 52,180 Disability Gamechanger
    pip12345 said:


    Buy I think with the arthritis diagnoses, this should be enough evidence them I'm not able to walk reliably. 
    I think you’re missing the point I’m trying to make. It’s not about a diagnosis so this alone is not enough to be awarded mobility part. 
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • pip12345
    pip12345 Community member Posts: 31 Listener
    Yes I go your point loud and clear. 
    I will also back up the diagnoses with a diary showing how it's affecting me.


  • chiarieds
    chiarieds Community member Posts: 15,858 Disability Gamechanger
    edited December 2023
    I'm rather confused by your post @pip12345 - please know I'm not trying to be controversial, rather understand more. As a disclaimer, I'm also a retired physio, so have some understanding of back problems. PIP assessors are usually nurses, but there are also physios & paramedics who would have a similar understanding to I.

    As poppy rightly says, PIP isn't about any diagnoses, yet you say you now have a diagnosis of mild scoliosis, which I wouldn't expect to affect your mobility. I respectfully also disagree with Wilf60 as it would be unusual for this to affect your arms, in fact even with kyphoscoliosis it's only the spine & ribcage that 'may' be affected. Lordosis is something completely different, & again, depending on the severity may not affect a person's mobility, & certainly not the arms.

    It's good you're getting your arm pain investigated as this is likely a separate issue.

    I'm not surprised your chiropracter has backtracked as he may not understand the PIP process, & seems to be vacillating as to the cause of your mild scoliosis; many cases are idiopathic, i.e. cause unknown, but not due to 'incorrect exercise or injury.' I wonder how they even tested for scoliosis...I wouldn't want to rely on their evidence as the NHS consider chiropractic treatment to be a complementary/alternative treatment rather than a conventional teatment.

    You should put your MR in writing, & concentrate on where you should have got points & why; you only mention hoping to gain the enhanced award for the daily living component it seems, but a new decision maker will look at your whole award. So you need to also illustrate the difficulties you have in 'reliably' being able to do/attempt the mobility component. Why do you have difficulty, what exactly happens, when did it happen, did anyone see this, & were there any untoward consequences? It's your own evidence that matters the most.
  • pip12345
    pip12345 Community member Posts: 31 Listener
    Thanks @chiarieds. Comments acknowledged.
  • pip12345
    pip12345 Community member Posts: 31 Listener
    @chiarieds you mentioned that lordosis or scoliosis shouldn't effect mobility. I'm not questioning your knowledge but both conditions can affect a person's gait which has an impact on balance and coordination. Furthermore scoliosis causes uneven hips which can put pressure on hips which may eventually lead to osteoarthritis. Also scoliosis causes uneven shoulders which can put pressure on shoulders.

    The chiropractor did mention I do not have a single condition, rather it is systemic where the cause is unknown but one thing is having an effect on another.

    I agree arm injury doesn't effect mobility, but mobility can excarbate arm pain due to indirect pressure (chatgpt answer).
  • Wilf60
    Wilf60 Community member Posts: 37 Connected
    pip12345 said:
    @chiarieds you mentioned that lordosis or scoliosis shouldn't effect mobility. I'm not questioning your knowledge but both conditions can affect a person's gait which has an impact on balance and coordination. Furthermore scoliosis causes uneven hips which can put pressure on hips which may eventually lead to osteoarthritis. Also scoliosis causes uneven shoulders which can put pressure on shoulders.

    The chiropractor did mention I do not have a single condition, rather it is systemic where the cause is unknown but one thing is having an effect on another.

    I agree arm injury doesn't effect mobility, but mobility can excarbate arm pain due to indirect pressure (chatgpt answer).
    I agree with both of the above posters that PIP is a points based system and that is how the benefit is awarded and you should match your symptoms with the descriptors.

    However, a diagnoses is important evidence and is relevant to how describe how your disability affects you. On a technical point it is all about the balance of probabilities. The more evidence you have the greater chance you have of being successful as the balance of probabilities swings more to your direction.

    I also agree with you regarding scoliosis. I suffer with scoliosis (although it is not my main disability) and I can confirm I have the same problems with balance, coordination and gait. Also I have problems with my left arm where due to the twist in my spine arthritis has been diagnosed in the shoulder area. So with respect to the above poster you are wrong.

  • pip12345
    pip12345 Community member Posts: 31 Listener
    edited December 2023
    Wilf60 said:
    pip12345 said:
    @chiarieds you mentioned that lordosis or scoliosis shouldn't effect mobility. I'm not questioning your knowledge but both conditions can affect a person's gait which has an impact on balance and coordination. Furthermore scoliosis causes uneven hips which can put pressure on hips which may eventually lead to osteoarthritis. Also scoliosis causes uneven shoulders which can put pressure on shoulders.

    The chiropractor did mention I do not have a single condition, rather it is systemic where the cause is unknown but one thing is having an effect on another.

    I agree arm injury doesn't effect mobility, but mobility can excarbate arm pain due to indirect pressure (chatgpt answer).
    I agree with both of the above posters that PIP is a points based system and that is how the benefit is awarded and you should match your symptoms with the descriptors.

    However, a diagnoses is important evidence and is relevant to how describe how your disability affects you. On a technical point it is all about the balance of probabilities. The more evidence you have the greater chance you have of being successful as the balance of probabilities swings more to your direction.

    I also agree with you regarding scoliosis. I suffer with scoliosis (although it is not my main disability) and I can confirm I have the same problems with balance, coordination and gait. Also I have problems with my left arm where due to the twist in my spine arthritis has been diagnosed in the shoulder area. So with respect to the above poster you are wrong.

    Spot on about balance of probabilities. I disagree that showing how a condition effects you without an official diagnosis lowers the chance of being awarded on balance of probabilities. 

    Whilst I do not disagree that claimants in the past have been awarded without treatment/diagnosis it is an exception rather than the rule. 

    When I had an official diagnosis for arthritis in the hand, it was very difficult for the health assessor not to award me points albeit she awarded me points on the lower end 

  • pip12345
    pip12345 Community member Posts: 31 Listener
    I do agree with all of the above posters that don't concentrate too much on diagnosis and symptoms.
    But concentrate on how it effects you as that what the judges look at.

    If you have an official diagnosis from a specialist/GP then there is no need to go into symptoms etc.

    But where you lack an official diagnosis of a recognised condition, it is important to go into symptoms although an official diagnosis of a recognised condition does lower the chance of being awarded on balance of probabilities.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 52,180 Disability Gamechanger
    pip12345 said:


    If you have an official diagnosis from a specialist/GP then there is no need to go into symptoms etc.


    That's absolutely not correct at all and this is where i think you're not quite understanding the criteria. You say you're aware that it's not about a diagnosis and then state the above.

    Everyone is affected differently by these conditions and it's not a "one size fits all" This is why it's your responsibilty to tell them exactly how your conditions affect them. A diagnosis, doesn't tell them anything and is often not in question anyway. This is one of the reasons why they do not accept internet print offs of symtoms of any conditions.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • pip12345
    pip12345 Community member Posts: 31 Listener
    pip12345 said:


    If you have an official diagnosis from a specialist/GP then there is no need to go into symptoms etc.


    That's absolutely not correct at all and this is where i think you're not quite understanding the criteria. You say you're aware that it's not about a diagnosis and then state the above.

    Everyone is affected differently by these conditions and it's not a "one size fits all" This is why it's your responsibilty to tell them exactly how your conditions affect them. A diagnosis, doesn't tell them anything and is often not in question anyway. This is one of the reasons why they do not accept internet print offs of symtoms of any conditions.
    I think you misunderstand my point.

    If for example you have been diagnosed with arthritis. There is no need to go in depth on a separate paper describing the symptoms which are well known by health care practitioners.

    If you don't have a diagnosis then it can be helpful to go into symptoms.

    Going into how the symptoms effects you in carrying out the daily activities is different and should be tied in with what symptoms you have and how the symptoms prevent you from carrying out the activity reliably.


  • Wilf60
    Wilf60 Community member Posts: 37 Connected
    pip12345 said:
    Wilf60 said:
    pip12345 said:
    @chiarieds you mentioned that lordosis or scoliosis shouldn't effect mobility. I'm not questioning your knowledge but both conditions can affect a person's gait which has an impact on balance and coordination. Furthermore scoliosis causes uneven hips which can put pressure on hips which may eventually lead to osteoarthritis. Also scoliosis causes uneven shoulders which can put pressure on shoulders.

    The chiropractor did mention I do not have a single condition, rather it is systemic where the cause is unknown but one thing is having an effect on another.

    I agree arm injury doesn't effect mobility, but mobility can excarbate arm pain due to indirect pressure (chatgpt answer).
    I agree with both of the above posters that PIP is a points based system and that is how the benefit is awarded and you should match your symptoms with the descriptors.

    However, a diagnoses is important evidence and is relevant to how describe how your disability affects you. On a technical point it is all about the balance of probabilities. The more evidence you have the greater chance you have of being successful as the balance of probabilities swings more to your direction.

    I also agree with you regarding scoliosis. I suffer with scoliosis (although it is not my main disability) and I can confirm I have the same problems with balance, coordination and gait. Also I have problems with my left arm where due to the twist in my spine arthritis has been diagnosed in the shoulder area. So with respect to the above poster you are wrong.

    Spot on about balance of probabilities. I disagree that showing how a condition effects you without an official diagnosis lowers the chance of being awarded on balance of probabilities. 

    Whilst I do not disagree that claimants in the past have been awarded without treatment/diagnosis it is an exception rather than the rule. 

    When I had an official diagnosis for arthritis in the hand, it was very difficult for the health assessor not to award me points albeit she awarded me points on the lower end 

    What you are saying is that there is no one size fits all. Every applicant has there own unique circumstances and I agree with both. However, it is proven that the more evidence provided makes it more likely the benefit will be awarded
  • pip12345
    pip12345 Community member Posts: 31 Listener
     

    Everyone is affected differently by these conditions and it's not a "one size fits all" This is why it's your responsibilty to tell them exactly how your conditions affect them. A diagnosis, doesn't tell them anything and is often not in question anyway. This is one of the reasons why they do not accept internet print offs of symtoms of any conditions.
    Whilst you are correct that that pip applications should be assessed based on 'not one size fits all'. 

    Not all assessors/decision makers implement this rule.

    As you, the health assessor, decision maker and and other posters have stated there is no link between arm pain, and arm pain being excarbated by mobility. Although I have made it clear that mobility does make my arm pain worse, it wasn't enough as it wasn't 'medically' recognised to have a direct link.

    If I have a diagnosis of hip arthritis, a poor gait will be more easier to believe, and a poor gait can have indirect pressure on other parts of the body due to the compression of nerves etc. I know, going down this route is a bit messy and my chiropractor said 'its a bit of a stretch'. 



  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 52,180 Disability Gamechanger
    Wilf60 said:
    pip12345 said:
    Wilf60 said:
    pip12345 said:
    @chiarieds you mentioned that lordosis or scoliosis shouldn't effect mobility. I'm not questioning your knowledge but both conditions can affect a person's gait which has an impact on balance and coordination. Furthermore scoliosis causes uneven hips which can put pressure on hips which may eventually lead to osteoarthritis. Also scoliosis causes uneven shoulders which can put pressure on shoulders.

    The chiropractor did mention I do not have a single condition, rather it is systemic where the cause is unknown but one thing is having an effect on another.

    I agree arm injury doesn't effect mobility, but mobility can excarbate arm pain due to indirect pressure (chatgpt answer).
    I agree with both of the above posters that PIP is a points based system and that is how the benefit is awarded and you should match your symptoms with the descriptors.

    However, a diagnoses is important evidence and is relevant to how describe how your disability affects you. On a technical point it is all about the balance of probabilities. The more evidence you have the greater chance you have of being successful as the balance of probabilities swings more to your direction.

    I also agree with you regarding scoliosis. I suffer with scoliosis (although it is not my main disability) and I can confirm I have the same problems with balance, coordination and gait. Also I have problems with my left arm where due to the twist in my spine arthritis has been diagnosed in the shoulder area. So with respect to the above poster you are wrong.

    Spot on about balance of probabilities. I disagree that showing how a condition effects you without an official diagnosis lowers the chance of being awarded on balance of probabilities. 

    Whilst I do not disagree that claimants in the past have been awarded without treatment/diagnosis it is an exception rather than the rule. 

    When I had an official diagnosis for arthritis in the hand, it was very difficult for the health assessor not to award me points albeit she awarded me points on the lower end 

    However, it is proven that the more evidence provided makes it more likely the benefit will be awarded
    Do you have a link to confirm that please? 
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.

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