The Green Paper Discussion (the document link is here too!)

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  • YogiBear
    YogiBear Online Community Member Posts: 131 Empowering
  • Jenwren
    Jenwren Online Community Member Posts: 81 Empowering

    I think (I might be wrong) that it means the govt hopes and assumes it can't be challenged. Individuals, charities and organisations can challenge this via the court system. I believe that's what happened when the tories tried to slam through similar legislation.

    so - I've just done a quick search on Claude (another AI) and asked if it it's succesfully taken to court and what happens - please bare in mind this is AI so grain of salt here:

    Legal Challenges to Benefits Reform (2025) in the UK:

    If people challenge this benefits reform in court using discrimination arguments under the Equality Act 2010 (which replaced the Disability Discrimination Act) or human rights legislation, several things could happen:

    Potential Legal Challenge Routes:

    1. Judicial Review - This is the most common way to challenge government decisions. Someone affected by the reforms could apply for judicial review claiming:
      • The government failed to properly consider its Public Sector Equality Duty
      • The changes discriminate against disabled people
      • The consultation process was flawed
      • The changes breach human rights obligations
    2. Equality Act Challenge - Arguing the changes amount to indirect discrimination against people with certain disabilities
    3. Human Rights Challenge - Based on Article 14 (non-discrimination) in conjunction with Article 8 (right to private life) or Article 1 of Protocol 1 (protection of property) of the European Convention on Human Rights

    What Could Happen If Challenges Succed:

    If a legal challenge is successful, several outcomes are possible:

    1. The court could strike down specific provisions as unlawful, requiring the government to revise them
    2. Implementation could be delayed until the government addresses the legal issues
    3. The government might be required to conduct a new consultation or equality impact assessment
    4. The court could issue a declaration of incompatibility (with human rights law), which doesn't invalidate the legislation but puts political pressure on the government to change it.

    Recent Precedents:

    There have been successful challenges to benefits reforms in the past:

    • In 2023, the High Court ruled the previous government's WCA consultation unlawful (mentioned in this Green Paper)
    • In 2016, the Court of Appeal ruled that the bedroom tax discriminated against a domestic violence victim and the family of a disabled teenager
    • In 2019, the Supreme Court ruled that the different treatment of severely disabled people who moved to Universal Credit was discriminatory

    What it means in practice:

    When courts rule against benefit reforms, the government typically:

    1. Creates exemptions for specific groups affected by the discrimination
    2. Makes modifications to policies to address the discrimination
    3. Sometimes pays compensation to those affected
    4. Occasionally scraps the policy entirely and starts over

    The courts cannot permanently block Parliament from changing benefits, but they can force significant revisions to ensure compliance with equality and human rights laws. This often leads to less severe versions of the original proposals, especially for the most vulnerable groups.

    Any successful legal challenge would take time to work through the courts, but could result in important protections for disabled people affected by the most problematic aspects of these reforms.

    Other Legal Grounds for Challenging UK Benefit Reform (2025):

    Beyond the Equality Act 2010 and general human rights legislation, there are several other legal avenues people and organizations could use to challenge the government's proposed benefit reforms:

    Administrative Law Principles:

    • Irrationality/Wednesbury unreasonableness - Arguing that the decision is so unreasonable that no reasonable authority could have made it
    • Procedural fairness - Challenging how decisions were made rather than the decisions themselves
    • Legitimate expectation - If beneficiaries had a reasonable expectation their benefits would continue based on previous government assurances

    International Treaties and Obligations:

    • UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities (UNCRPD) - The UK has ratified this, creating obligations to protect disabled people's rights
    • International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights - Includes the right to social security and adequate standard of living
    • European Social Charter - Includes protections for the right to social security

    Specific UK Legislation:

    • Welfare Reform Act 2012 - Changes must be consistent with this act's provisions
    • Social Security Administration Act 1992 - Contains procedural requirements for changes to benefits
    • Child Poverty Act 2010 - If changes would impact child poverty targets
    • Care Act 2014 - If changes would affect disabled people's care needs

    Constitutional Principes:

    • Rule of law - Challenging arbitrary decision-making or lack of clear criteria
    • Parliamentary sovereignty - If secondary legislation exceeds powers granted by primary legislation (ultra vires)
    • Devolution issues - Where reforms affect devolved matters in Scotland, Wales, or Northern Ireland

    Common Law Rights:

    • Common law right to a fair hearing - If assessment processes don't provide sufficient opportunity to present one's case
    • Common law right to dignity - Some courts have recognized this as an underlying principle

    Organizations That Could Bring Challenges:

    • Disability rights organizations - Groups like Disability Rights UK or the Disability Law Service
    • Legal charities - Organizations like the Public Law Project or Child Poverty Action Group
    • Law Centers - Providing free legal representation
    • Strategic litigation partnerships - Where charities partner with law firms for impact cases

    Recent Examples:

    • In 2022, the High Court ruled the DWP's failure to conduct in-person assessments during Covid discriminated against disabled people with certain conditions
    • In 2020, the Court of Appeal ruled that moving severely disabled people to Universal Credit without transitional protection was unlawful

    Legal challenges don't always succeed, but they've been important in moderating some of the harshest aspects of benefit reforms in recent years. They often focus on protecting specific vulnerable groups rather than challenging the entire reform package.

  • Jenwren
    Jenwren Online Community Member Posts: 81 Empowering

    I'm sorry you went through this re PIP. I have ME/CFS too so that really sucks. As far as I understand (and my brain is a bit fuzzy/blank right now) LCWRA is frozen until 29/30. So it's not a cut-cut but it kind of is with rising cost of everything.

    As for re-assesing PIP, no clue. It depends on what the goal actually is. They say it's to get people back into work, because that cures terminal illness and degenetive conditions and gives dignity back (sorry! my snark is high today). I'm thinking they are banking on people being too afraid to get re-assesed, they'll see they need 4 points in one catagory and know they won't get it so they don't even get re-assessed and that means they immediately cut the people on PIP right out the gate. The details about reassessing are very fuzzy - maybe deliberately or incompetent or a mix of both? They seem very defensive and cagey when they are asked about the details of how this will work in practice re re-assessments.

  • userinfo1
    userinfo1 Online Community Member Posts: 58 Contributor

    Last 48 hours I have done nothing but fret over all this. Even planning my death in my head as I know I won't survive if this goes through. It's bad enough dealing with Multiple Sclerosis on a daily basis and the worst thing for it is stress as it triggers all my symptoms to go over ride. Wetting myself dirty myself and constant spasms and inability to sleep. Totally totally disgusted with the government.

    I know I can't function in a work place environment and be sacked in an instant for falling asleep, at the toilet regularly and God forbid if got to go there walking sticks and zimmer frames to get around an office.

    Been looking at all my medication bags of them for all my symptoms researching what pills be best effective to kill myself. This is how bad this has got disabled people and nasty feeling is what they want. Disability now is this country you get nothing for except just to rot like many third world countries with begging bowls in the street.

    Trying my best not to think about there brutal cuts as I can't see any way forward but to consider to take an overdose or get my mobility scooter to nearest motorway and to jump off a bridge. Is this what this country become third world.

    The system does need reforming with so many over the top claims but this plaster for one rule for all will be the solution. I know I can't work I know I have a condition I can't function with so the answer from this labour government is to die.

    Really really don't know what to do next as can't see any light ahead for me.

  • bellatango
    bellatango Online Community Member Posts: 5 Listener

    @userinfo1

    I feel exactly the same as you and looking for the best way out. No family or friends to help, so without any money will starve/freeze to death. Sending you a hug as thats all I have to offer.

  • userinfo1
    userinfo1 Online Community Member Posts: 58 Contributor

    I'm just praying that I hope there will be answers to be found but ever since the announcement was made and the rug/support pulled I feel more vulnerable than ever seen before. I know I can't work I know I can't do things I once did but this government attitude is "tough" and told to rot.

    Thanks for reading my post means a lot as I can't speak to anyone how bad it is. Even if phoned Smaritans or Crisis Teams what they going to say or do.... nothing. Plus no doubt now swamped with callers going on about the same thing.

  • userinfo1
    userinfo1 Online Community Member Posts: 58 Contributor

    Can't believe even Googling the best way out and what of my pills is best to use. Plenty of pills to choose but which is most effective. Then where can I take my mobility scooter too to just ride of a bridge sod the consequences and left with there agencies to deal there after. So so deeply anxious now and all because THEY pulled this plug of so so called support.

  • middali
    middali Online Community Member Posts: 27 Connected

    @userinfo1

    I completely understand :( I only got lcwra in December last year :( now everything is just going to be ripped from me and millions of other people. It’s so sad I googled too earlier and I didn’t even need to finish typing as it was a suggested search, I guess so many other people have to :(

  • userinfo1
    userinfo1 Online Community Member Posts: 58 Contributor

    Fact that I'm awake at this God forbidden hour Googling such questions as a solution shows something is not right. I know many people are in this boat also but the politicians need to understand the consequences of there actions. Vulnerable people's lives playing around with and click and in an instant pull the plug. What do they expect all of us to magically be able again to work they are having a laugh.

  • middali
    middali Online Community Member Posts: 27 Connected

    @userinfo1

    Yes absolutely, nobody is going to get better as they magically say so :( so fed up with it, I wish I was ‘normal’ but clearly that’s not going to happen anytime soon. I’m up as my insomnia, but this is all making it so worse, not slept for nearly 56 hours, yet the doctors do nothing. I swear the government think mental health/any type of health is an easy fix.

  • Gazmo76
    Gazmo76 Online Community Member Posts: 21 Connected

    Hey Jen , sorry about the delay in responding , I took a knock out tablet and hence why I'm up now at an ungodly hour! :) so firstly I should thank you and other people as its really nice and kind that people are showing some empathy and understanding and most importantly STRENGTH , secondly I appreciate the questions , so I have been told by the councillor of the group that has put me on suicide watch to avoid any social media activity or watching the news for at least a week , which even in this short space of time has actually been great , I had some nasty stuff said to me a few days ago on FB ... the inhumanity in some people is disgusting, as it stands I'm currently seeing a clinical nurse at my hiv clinic and in two weeks time I'm seeing my hiv specialist and in going to see if she will write a supporting letter for me, mind you , it looks like medical letters aren't going to be worth the paper they are written on , I'm in a queue to see someone from a male rape supporting group called Survivors UK, they have been excellent in helping me and I'm seeing this group now that helps men going through suicidal tendencies, I've got my partner , my dad and a few friend who help me out , I'd honestly be lost without them, the group that I'm seeing now gave me a brilliant app to refer to , it also has a button I can press where if the urge to end it I press , they get me help (so close to pressing it yesterday -on a few occasions) abd it also has breathing techniques which are surprisingly helpful -as for TV my concentration is shot to pieces but I do love a podcast there are some brilliant ones out there

    Jen, you are so kind and thank you for taking an interest in me xxx

  • alexroda
    alexroda Online Community Member Posts: 126 Empowering

    Exactly, this should be discussed.

    Anyone with ESA contribution based, if that proposal goes ahead, will lose their entitlement eventually. As well as any NI contributions for their future pension.

    this is clearly discrimination done in a very devious subtle way.

    So if you are on ESA contributions based I would reply to their green paper pointing that out.

  • alexroda
    alexroda Online Community Member Posts: 126 Empowering

    agreed, raise awareness and write your feedback to the green paper.

  • Zipz
    Zipz Online Community Member Posts: 1,871 Pioneering

    I have always urged people with disabilities severe enough to impact their mobility and daily life to apply for PIP at the time of need. Disability is expensive.

  • Zipz
    Zipz Online Community Member Posts: 1,871 Pioneering

    This change would impoverish me and others with no UC entitlement yet it gets not attention in the media or responses from the Mods on this forum.

  • Gazmo76
    Gazmo76 Online Community Member Posts: 21 Connected

    Hi Sparrow , from what I've seen and lovely people on here have said that this is a green paper, so as it stands, it's a paper with ideas on it and it is absolutely negotiable because there will be changes , tweaks and given the public and MPs anger and outrage I think or at least hope that there will be changes, there has to be as this has been so badly thought out and instantly its discriminatory against mentally ill people , this has broken me and I'm on suicide watch, I know it's scary but let's hold onto hope :)

  • Gazmo76
    Gazmo76 Online Community Member Posts: 21 Connected

    Hi Evlyn , I wouldn't trust a thing Timms says , I messaged him a few weeks ago asking why these (at the time) proposed cuts are fair or right, I told him my plight and sent a pic of my wrists (I self harm) his response? ... you don't live in this constituency so I can't help, keeping in mind he's the minister of the disabled AND a self professed man of god !

    Disgraceful

  • Martinp
    Martinp Online Community Member Posts: 38 Empowering

    Had another horrible night laying awake thinking about the future, I have lived in my rented home for 24 years, full of memories but I will lose it soon. No chance to afford the rent, I feel so low, I don’t want to be like this, I hate feeling like this.

  • LouCie61
    LouCie61 Online Community Member Posts: 76 Empowering

    @Jenwren

    Thank you for all that info. It brings a lot of hope.

    I'm hoping today will be a better day and I can focus on getting the questions answered on the green paper too and also writing to our MP. He has a disabled son and his wife has MS so hopefully some support there (but you never know which way they will turn!)

    I'm so glad I found this forum. I'm housebound and very isolated so worry can go off the scale. Seeing people's hope and positivity is a boost. 🙂

This discussion has been closed.