Means Testing PIP - Whats everyone thoughts?
Comments
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Hello everyone,
We want this discussion to continue, but we’re concerned that things are becoming quite tense and could easily escalate.
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@Biblioklept I can see your now being attacked. I'm sorry. Theres just no hope for this forum anymore it looks like. You can't have a simple discussion anymore without being attacked.
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I've not said I don't want to discuss it, I'm more than happy to, I'm just not getting into an argument about the kind of derogatory comments others have made and will focus on my thoughts instead and the actual discussion instead.
I've also not said anything about it being a reward for home ownership (or the opposite), I'm saying given that they are saying that the welfare bill is too large, I think the fairest thing is to prioritise those who cannot sustain themselves without it, rather than their current 4 point rule, which blanketly ditches 1 in 4 people off of PIP.
How would I personally means test it?
I wouldn't. I strongly believe it's fairer than their 1 in 4 rule, but it's not something I'd want to see happen. I think there are plenty of better ways the government should and could be balancing their books rather than attacking benefits at all.
But if I had to find a way to means test, I'd say those earning over £100,000 a year or with more than £25,000 in savings would be a good place to start. Whether that would make any actual difference, I have no idea as even the government doesn't have access to that information and doesn't collate financial status of PIP claimants
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Thanks @rubin16 I thought it was a great discussion and was really sad it went this way, I hope you're okay and don't let it put you off! People get very defensive of their opinions, especially when it involves money ❤️
I just don't like the trope that unless you have thousands in the bank and own your own home, you must be lazy, squander money and have no resilience or discipline - feels a bit off topic and very divisive!
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Absolutely not!
I worked for years and paid into the system.
I have a bit of savings put by for my retirement age.
Why should I be penalised for that?
I find the suggestion offensive.
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Just to clarify, Rubin, my response wasn’t an attack on yourself, and I apologise if it came across that way. You asked for thoughts, and I replied respectfully, with clarity and care.
I felt it was important to correct your claim about people routinely receiving PIP while living abroad. That’s not accurate, current legislation only allows PIP to be paid outside the UK in very limited circumstances. Misinformation like that can unintentionally distort public understanding and fuel harmful policy assumptions.
In my view, PIP should remain exactly as it is, non-means tested, and rooted in disability-related need. A disability is a disability, regardless of income, savings, or circumstances.
If disabled people are to be treated fairly, we need to stand together, protect each other, and challenge any reform that threatens to narrow entitlement, or shift responsibility away from need.
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I have not attacked @Biblioklept . Neither have I suggested that those with the very least are unworthy in some way. I've been in that position.
There's a world of difference though between an income of £100,000 per annum and £25,000 in the bank. Most people could live on £100K per year. £25,000 without other income is considered less than a single person needs a year to live a reasonable life. I live on less, BTW. But £25K would not last long.
You are not under attack.
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Hi all
Where possible we like all discussions to continue, but we’re choosing to pause this discussion for now so we can review it. For more information, please read our online community house rules.We will review it and if we are satisfied the discussion can continue, we will hope to un-pause it by later this afternoon.
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Following review, we have now unpaused this discussion.
Please remember that all discussions on Scope’s online community should remain civil, supportive, and safe.
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I'm against means-testing.
However, due to severe manual disability and exhaustion, I mistyped a "means-test option" twice in the posts above. I meant "Limit it to people paying below the 40% and above tax rates?"
Sorry for any confusion.
I don't pay much tax and as interest rates fall will pay less but I'm still very much against any qualifying disabled person losing PIP because they're considered financially OK.
Nonetheless, there will be changes and I suspect the government might use the tax system as it did for Child Allowance if the savings were high enough.
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Can @Community_Scope explain how members "support" other members who would quite happily rip PIP away from anyone with more than a few thousand in savings?
I don't think anyone in this thread was "uncivil".
Yes. We all need to stay "safe" in this atrocious political era.
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We realise that this is a very emotional topic for many and each person will have their own individual experiences informing their views. The house rules aren't designed to mean you must support a member's views if you disagree.
They are there to ensure members are civil to each other despite disagreements or differences in opinion.
Even when feeling strongly about something, it's important not to let it get personal and escalate into arguments that leave others feeling hurt.
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I am a definite NO for means testing PIP. I can't add anymore to what has already been said by other members, but I agree with what other members have said and "liked" those posts.
The government should look elsewhere for savings, nobody can understand why PIP has been targeted first, it's all you hear outside from other people and I'll leave it at that....
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You started a discussion that hit a nerve with other members. It's a subject that was bound to get strong responses. I have read all the posts and don't see you or anyone else being personally attacked. Yes, there are strong views and I would expect that. A lot of the members that have replied are here daily on this forum helping others that are looking for help with their PIP claims and they give their time to do it too. They are not nasty members! There is hope for this forum and you can have a discussion.
You expressed your opinion and other members expressed theirs, no Malice intended!
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I don't think it should be means tested at all before I was transferred over to ADP if PIP were means tested then I would not have got anything due to hubby's income.
This benefit gives me back some of my independence in so many ways.
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What about disabled people who are in supported living flats?
You'd have housing benefit to pay your rent, HB is a means tested benefit. UC goes on bills and food. UC is also means tested.
If PIP were means tested, then disabled people would have nothing.
PIP is better as it is,as a needs based benefit.
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In my opinion, we have all been respectful to one another and as far as I can see nobody has "attacked" anyone on this thread but merely expressed differences of opinion as we do on any other subject.
Any way as I understand it the government aren't intending to means test pip
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No one is saying they WANT to ‘rip PIP away’ from anyone. In fact I think I've been quite clear that I don't agree with it and think the Gov shouldn't be targeting PIP or benefits at all.
People voiced the opinion that if they are going to make cuts to PIP, they’d see it as fairer to remove it from those who could financially cope without the loss. If you couldn’t cope without PIP or would struggle as a result, that probably doesn’t include you.
There have been some great arguments against it with wonderful rationale about the unfairness and why people are against it in general, which have made for excellent talking and thinking points!
There was then pressure to give limits and examples, and I expanded on previous opinions to say if it is removed from anyone, those who can cope with the loss seems fairer than the blanket proposals of current, where 1 in 4 disabled people lose PIP
That's a very good point!
@MW123 I don't understand this part of your post "What is profoundly troubling is that this proposal was left unmoderated," are you saying the proposal shouldn't have been allowed to be spoken about at all and should have been moderated/deleted??
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As for attacks or whatever, I don't feel attacked, but many of the messages posted haven't been very friendly.
I can imagine the assumptions, both direct and indirect, that have been touted and the aggressive questioning of just one person can very much come across as an attack
These sorts of comments are divisive, and full of assumptions and some are just outright rude:
“Did you genuinely not consider others would question your rationale/lack of knowledge/naivety” and “unconsidered/uniformed/trope-laden”
– not exactly friendly and saying someone lacks knowledge or is naïve because they have a different opinion is quite frankly rude and insulting.
“Means testing would punish disabled people who have shown resilience, financial discipline and self-sacrifice, those who have scrimped, saved and relied on their own modest resources to fill gaps in support.”
– indirectly saying that disabled people without savings haven’t shown resilience, financial discipline, self-sacrifice and don’t scrimp. I’d say someone living on just £316 a month is scrimping and showing huge financial discipline and resilience too!! Although I'm sure it wasn't meant this way, especially from this poster, it's easy to see why someone may feel hurt by the implication!!
“Do you not consider it 'unfair' to those (like me and many others) who pushed through our disabilities and worked for 40+ years, paying tax to support those claiming disability benefits, to now be denied the same benefits because we pushed through until we were no longer able to do so?”
– no one said that at all and it’s putting words and assumptions into others mouths. It’s also pushing the human-capital agenda that worth and entitlement is based on how much you ‘pay in’ or work.
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