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PIP Tribunal

Syzygy

I made a claim for PIP in June this year. Eventually after much time wasting by the DWP I attended my assessment with a friend for support on 29th August 2017. The assessment turned out more like an interrogation, conducted behind the computer monitor with no eye contact, the Health Professional wouldn't allow me to explain or ask anything, stopping me every time with 'Just answer the question'?
20 minutes into the assessment, he asked me, 'Where do you see yourself and your illness in a months time'? I told him I couldn't answer that because it was an hypothetical question, and realistically no one could answer ?
He asked me again to answer the question, and said if you don't I will terminate the interview? I told him it was his prerogative but unfortunately I couldn't answer. He terminated the interview and told me to get out reaching for the door behind him and pointing.
I left with my friend.
I received a letter from the DWP 3 weeks later who stated as I had not attended my assessment my claim had been denied? I telephoned them. I was told that the IAS had not submitted a report, therefore they could not progress the claim any further. I told DWP in fact I had attended. The DWP kept me on hold and telephoned the IAS for answers? He cam back to me and said there was no report on the computer, the HP had not completed and submitted one and just left a note 'on file' which simply said - 'Became aggressive and violent'??
I called the IAS shortly after and was told the same, there was no report recorded just a not on file.
I submitted a formal complaint to IAS regarding the matter and the behaviour and spurious lies used by the assessor.
I sent a copy of the letter to DWP and asked them to reconsider my claim.
IAS replied with a 5 page letter informing me how professional they and their assessors were. They also then stated that a half written report had been 'found'. I asked for a copy of the report with printed copies of timeline information to make sure there were no discrepancies.
They never sent me the 'so called report' to date.
DWP wrote back and stated again they had reconsidered my claim with new evidence but were still unable to progress the claim without an assessors report?
I was again denied, and they said my only option was to take it to tribunal? I telephoned them and spoke with a manager who stated that the IAS did not need to send a report at all? I asked then what is the point of the claim , and she just said, take it to tribunal?
My form SSCS1 has now been submitted.
I cannot see me winning my claim as I fear that if IAS didn't submit the report it would be stalemate.
If I do attend a tribunal, will I be able to take my friend as a witness? I cannot find anything to say I can or I can't? He does not fit into the category - 'Representative'
I mentioned him only by name on the SSCS1 form.

Gerry

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Comments

CockneyRebel

Hi Gerry and welcome

Unless you have submitted enough evidence your claim cannot progress until an assessment is completed.

If you go to tribunal, the only ruling they can give is to reinstate your claim and you will then be required to attend an assessment. You may take a friend but they may not be alowed to speak.

You can ask your local MP for assistance who maybe able to get your claim reinstated but you will still need to attend assessment.

As you have no claim in payment, you can make a new application while waiting for your appeal as you could be waiting 6-8 months. This can be complicated. If you choose this route then any new decision will supercede the decision you might get from your first claim. Again , unless you can supply overwhelming evidence you will still be required to attend an assessment.

If you haven't done so then a good place to start understanding the points system, descriptors and criteria for an award is the B&W self test

http://www.mybenefitsandwork.co.uk/pip/indexxx.php

Please come back with any questions

CR

Syzygy

Hi CockneyRebel, and thanks for the welcome!

I might just stick with the original claim, proceeding with a new one will take just as long?

They know that I could very well sue the HP for slander/Libellous actions as he has failed to back up his claim that I was supposedly aggressive and Violent toward him which I totally refute - it just never happened! Also it is defamation of my character? I am a retired Police officer. During the interview, he passed a comment, he did not ask.. he just commented, 'I see you were a policeman' I asked IAS in my complaint, as an independent body, why would the HP be making such a statement? My previous occupation bears no reference to the interview or what was required?

The HP doesn't have a witness, but I do. He knows submitting a false report to the IAS and DWP will land him in very deep water?

It would be interesting to see what happens? Either the DWP would need to negotiate the settlement without the IAS report or go to tribunal and see what reason the IAS has refused to send them and me a copy of the report (albeit half completed?) My guess is, the HP and IAS are trying to wriggle out of this, they've effectively messed up on it and I would like to see and ask questions if possible at the tribunal?

I was told by the DWP that I may be required to go for another assessment on the second referral (by phone) to which I told them I was reluctant to do this unless they could guarantee I would not get the same HP, they couldn't.

Gerry

CockneyRebel

Of course the decision is yours.
The likely out come of going to tribunal, if they find in your favour will be to put you back at the start of the process but 6-8 months down the road. Although you should have eventual award backdated.
A new claim could see an award in much less time but without the back dated elemement.
If the tribunal find against you or the consequent assessment and decision don't give you an award, which can happen, you will then have to start a new claim but probably a year from now

Good luck with what ever you decide

CR

Syzygy

Thanks CR,

I'm told by DWP it is the first time ever they've not had a report submitted to them by IAS?

They told me my submission had enough points to receive an award, they just can't progress it further because the system would not allow this to happen unless a report was submitted?

I'll wait and see what happens...

Gerry

CockneyRebel

Hi Gerry

Yours is certainly not the first reort that has not been submitted although admitting to a half written one might be a first.

If they are admitting that you score enough points for an award then all that should be required is a paper assessment by IAS. I would get MP involved, they have acces to DWP that we don't

CR

BenefitsTrainingCo

Hello Gerry

How frustrating. From your post, it looks like PIP have made a decision on your claim, which was refused and now your case is at appeal.

I am confused as to why the DWP wrote back and stated they had reconsidered your claim with new evidence but were still unable to progress the claim without an assessors report. I am confused as they have progressed your claim in gathering 'new evidence' and then making a decision on your PIP application.

Did PIP make any decision in regard to an award of points or did the decision purely state that you did not have a good reason for non attendance at an assessment?

At appeal stage PIP prepare a bundle of papers that includes copies of your application form, copies of all decisions made, your appeal form, reasons for their decision and copies of all medical evidence used to assess your case. It will be interesting to see if any report (albeit half completed) is included in your appeal bundle, though the chances of this maybe slim. The 'new evidence' that PIP used to assess your claim should also be in the appeal bundle.

Please post back.

Syzygy

Good Morning Benefits Training Co,

The 'New' evidence referred to was another letter I sent to IAS asking for the now newly discovered report they claimed they had in their possession? I asked them for evidence from the health professional as to my so called 'aggression' and 'violent Conduct' that was supposed to have happened? It is my right to see this report, but as yet, IAS have not replied or sent me or the DWP this report.

DWP claim, that IAS do not have to supply them with a Health Professional report albeit they have used tax payers money - and IAS are contracted to do so?

A copy of this letter to IAS was sent to DWP during my second referral, and that was the 'new evidence' they are stating? Interestingly, I telephoned DWP to ask how my claim was proceeding, I spoke firstly with a man from Blackpool who after hearing and seeing the evidence stated my claim was 'Good' with the required points, but can't go further without the assessors report?

He put me through to a manger who told me that he shouldn't be talking to me, but agreed, my claim was good but can't proceed with IAS report? He stated that I may be require to go for a further assessment? I stated that I was reluctant to do so unless DWP and IAS could guarantee I didn't get the same assessor before? I add at this point, I did not refuse to go, but just stated my reluctance?

A letter arrived within 4 days telling me they still cannot proceed with the claim and refused it. The letter stated that if I would like to discuss my 'decision' then to call them. I assumed they were referring to my reluctance to go to a further assessment?

I telephoned them and spoke to a woman manager who stated, your claim has been declined - thats it. You will have to go to tribunal. She kept talking over the top of me, and after several attempts to get my point over she seemed to be losing patience, in other words, she wasn't interested in what I had to say?

I asked her three times why the letter had asked me to telephone them if I wanted to discuss my decision? I tried to ask if they meant about my reluctance to go to another tribunal, perhaps this would of taken matters further, as the previous Manager had indicated, but she just said take it to tribunal and the conversation finished there. I have now submitted an appeal.

As for your question - Did PIP make any decision in regard to an award of points or did the decision purely state that you did not have a good reason for non attendance at an assessment? It would seem the indicators I've been told by DWP are that my claim is good with the necessary points required, there is no dispute about my health, and medical reports, and my application was good.

The first refusal was because IAS had not submitted their assessors report. DWP assumed that I didn't attend the appointment because of this and without checking IAS they sent out the refusal? I did attend my appointment with a friend for support. He is also willing to testify before the tribunal. My telephone call to DWP after receiving the letter made them contact IAS as to why no report had been sent, and then revealing the fact there was no report, just a note on record that stated Claimant became aggressive and violent?

I believe had a good and honest report was submitted I would most likely have received my award, but I think we are all aware that both the DWP and IAS have targets, and that includes deterring people and even lying (TV documentaries and newspaper reports) to ensure that even the genuine claims are refused.

Gerry.

BenefitsTrainingCo

Hi Gerry,

Wow. I can't say from reading that I'm 100% sure what's gone on with this.

If it was me dealing with this case now, I'd be very interested to see what the DWP put in their appeal bundle - if your SSCS1 is in, then you will be receiving this very soon. After that you will have a better idea of what your appeal is actually about i.e. whether they're going to try and argue that you didn't attend the hearing, or whether they're going to admit you did, but say you didn't score enough points.

Make sure you read their 'submission' bit thoroughly when you get it - as this going-on with the medical assessment could be a total red herring.

If it comes to it and you want your friend to give evidence, I would highly recommend getting them to write it as a statement or letter and submitting it to the Tribunal in your own submission and/or with whatever evidence you're sending in - they can then go to the Tribunal (you can take whoever you want) and the Tribunal can ask them questions if they want to. If it's all in their letter though they may not have any other questions for them.

Let us know what their argument is when you get it! - Like my colleague above, I have a feeling it's not going to include half of what you've been told.

Kind regards,

Mary

Syzygy

Hello Mary,

Thank you, I'll keep you informed. As yet, I haven't heard from the appeals but as you say, it will be very interesting what they have said?

Best Wishes

Gerry.

wildlife

@Syzygy I have read your story to date with interest. I suspect IAS have met their match and the assessor chose the wrong person to "accuse" of something that never happened. Firstly I would like to mention my own experience of trying to get my husband accepted as a witness in a formal complaint to IAS. Their reasoning for non acceptance was that he is not an independent witness being a friend/relative of mine. However you will know more about this than me. It would be useful at this point for you to do a "Subject Access Request" to obtain all paperwork including anything online, which has to be produced as a screen shot, concerning your claim. IAS will not be able (or should not by law) change anything that has been written about you including the false statement. This is a very easy process and is regulated by the Information Commissioner's Office (ICO). All it takes is an email to IAS saying you wish to make a Subject Access Request and within 40 days (straight not working days) you should receive all data relating to your claim. This may even bring other things to light e.g. I found a false Professional Registration Number written by my assessor on one of my documents.
If you decide to take legal action you would be doing a huge number of people a very big favour as many of us have fought against lies written by assessors and got nowhere. I have had a complaint totally rejected by IAS which is now waiting in a queue at ICE for further investigation. Please keep us up to date with the progress of your claim..

Syzygy

Hi Wildlife,

There was something 'sinister' in the way that the assessor had made his statement? He wasn't asking me a question and I don't think it was even on the list of questions I believe they are given, perhaps someone can verify this? As an Independent body from Government, they do not have the right to comment, it is totally irrelevant to my claim unless he was out proving a point or using the fact to his own advantage, whatever his reason might be?

A formal complaint was made to IAS who replied with a 5 page letter full of self praise? When I arrived at the interview, during and after, the assessor never made mention of travel expenses, and never offered any. IAS claimed the assessor was highly trained in his job and a professional through and through.. so when I pointed out his error, they just said well, people forget and make mistakes.

I wasn't interviewed, but interrogated by this man, who never gave me the opportunity to answer his questions other than Yes or No. His last question before he terminated the interview was where did I see my health and self in a months time? Is that a professional question? It's very hypothetical, no one unless they possess a crystal ball can answer that!

IAS have dug themselves in a very deep hole. When I wrote and complained a second time I asked for the half report they were claiming to have found. I said I wanted it in computer format with print out dates, timelines etc - a hand written copy is not acceptable under any circumstance.

I have not received such a report since asking in October 2017, DWP claim they have not received a copy either.

The question of legal action is in the forefront of my mind, I have informed them that I am considering this course of action in my complaint letter, and I wanted an apology from the assessor for defamation of my character for spurious lies, and asked them to produce the evidence of such a claim? So far, they have been unable to.

With regard to the subject access, this is going to tribunal and all matters and documents purporting to my claim has to be sent to the tribunal and a copy sent to me.

I'm sorry to hear that you, like many thousands who have had a bad experience from IAS (formerly ATOS) I have several relatives who report the same thing, we are not alone.

I totally believe in Karma!

Gerry.

wildlife

Hi Gerry, Please excuse me if you know what a Subject Access Request is but the fact that you have linked it to your application for Appeal makes me think you imagine it wouldn't provide you with anything you don't already have or will see during the Appeal process. It is nothing to do with PIP but is something anyone can apply for to any company or organization who hold personal data about you. It includes info. you won't have access to any other way and best of all IAS/DWP cannot by law refuse to supply you with ALL that you are requesting. They cannot alter or withhold anything. They have 40 days to do this well within the timescale for a long wait for Tribunal. If they do not comply you can report them to ICO who will force them to do what you have requested. I did this myself and know other people who've all had a successful outcome. The Data Protection Act clearly states that companies cannot collect, store and process incorrect information about people which is what IAS/DWP are doing. I assume any legal action would be using this Act to prosecute them. That would be brilliant.

Syzygy

Hi Wildlife,
A subject access request has been sent to IAS.
I have asked twice since 6th October for a report from their assessor. Initially, they stated that the report did not exist, this was confirmed by a telephone call by myself and the DWP.

Since my complaint, they have now told me they had 'found' a half report by the assessor? In my second submission to the DWP which they turned down on the basis that IAS hadn't sent this half report, and that they didn't have to send it if they didn't want to (told me by a manager at the DWP)??

I have received letter on Friday 22nd December 2017 from HM Courts and Tribunal Service accepting my appeal. They are writing to the DWP (no mention of IAS?) to prepare and forward a written response. My appeal is being arranged at the nearest court to me, it will be an oral hearing.

Thanks for your help, I'll keep you informed...

Gerry

Syzygy

Today, I have just received a reply from IAS.
They stated...

Thank you for your recent correspondence.

A request for the subject access report has been sent to the Department for work and Pensions (DWP) as soon as we receive the information we will be able to respond to you and release the information you have requested.

Is there anyone who can tell me why has IAS sent this to the DWP? I am asking IAS for their documentation on me?

My specific request to IAS was a copy of the access report that they claim never existed but have since found? They have refused to send the report to me and the DWP?

Why will they not send it...Is this a joke?

BenefitsTrainingCo

Syzygy, With many subject access reports a certain amount of checking has to happen before they release the information. For example, it may be that they are double checking with the DWP about your identity (ridiculous as that sounds). DWP would almost certainly have to have the report, if it is available to them, as part of their bundle to the tribunal. As Mary says, I would expect that to be in there. Without it, I can't see how the DWP can make a decision that you failed to participate (I'm guessing a bit here, but I think it is more likely that the assessment company would claim there has been a failure to participate than a failure to attend - because obviously you did attend!) If that report doesn't turn up in the bundle, it might be worth asking the tribunal to issue a direction to make sure it is provided, though I would imagine it should be sent to you pretty quickly once DWP confirm (not that they are quick at anything!) If you are going to ask for a direction, I'd wait for the bundle before doing so, ask in writing, and explain to the tribunal what you've already done to try to get the report. Going back to where you are with your claim: if DWP had accepted that you did in fact attend and they have now refused you based on not meeting the disability conditions, then they have to show how they have reached that conclusion. That can only be on the basis of the report and the new evidence. Or, if the DWP 'cannot progress it further', then what is the appeal about? What decision has been made? Is it to refuse you on the basis of non-attendance (that will clearly fail) or non-participation (you refused to answer a question which you couldn't answer, entirely reasonably, and you were interrogated, so this should fail, too). I'm hopeful that this will be sorted out by the tribunal or possibly even beforehand, so it is worth ringing the DWP to say that IAS need something from them in order to send you the report. I'd also want to get clearer about what decision has been made, as Mary points out. If you don't have a decision letter with points mentioned, then it seems to me that this is still a decision about whether you participated/attended the assessment? Otherwise how can you expect to show that the decision is wrong, when you don't know what points were given? All this may well end up with you having to attend another assessment. You could ask for a guarantee that this is with a different assessor. You could also try progressing your complaint further (although as wildfire knows, this is difficult). However, because you've lost out (financially, and due to stress etc) I would continue to pursue this. Some people have been successful, eventually. It's also worth going to see your MP about this. Will

Syzygy

Thanks Will,
It is coming ever clearer what needs to be done? I can only assume that the DWP have rejected my claim on the basis of non participation? They are aware of the situation in a letter I sent them asking for a referral. They have not stated this is the reason - they keep going back to my not attending the assessment, and make no reference to non participation which is confusing me?
I've been told by the DWP that my marking and points were 'Very Favourable' to my claim. I can only assume again that I have the necessary points but it can't progress because of the non attendance/non participation issue.

Gerry

Syzygy

Again, I am confused? I've just received a further email from IAS who now tell me,

"All information of all records and reports are held by the (DWP) we do not hold any information at Independent Assessment Services and any requests for any data needs to be requested by (DWP) as we are governed by the (DWP).

We will send all the details you have requested once the information has been sent to us by the (DWP).

So, are IAS (ATOS) a french company contracted or owned by the DWP/Government? Do they not hold any records whatsoever?

BenefitsTrainingCo

Hi @Syzygy

No, ATOS are not owned by the DWP, but they are a contractor for them and work very closely with them. It's odd that they cite being 'governed by' the DWP as the reason for any delay, however I wouldn't be too put out at this point by the stock answers of ATOS, wait and see what they deliver in the report.

SARs do typically take a while to be produced, as they are under a duty to ensure that the correct information is provided, but in any event I would expect you would be receiving your appeal bundle fairly soon, which will hopefully be enlightening in itself...

Kind regards,

Mary

Zededd

Hi there Gerry.
I hope things have improved, but in the unfortunate event that it hasn't, you could always look into assistance with the tribunal?
I know Disability Support Project are pretty good with this kind of thing. Their website is DSPUK.org.uk if you want to look into them.

IAS seem to be getting a lot of bad press recently (since changing their name from ATOS following THEIR bad press) but I know the tribunals service is totally independent. They should be more open to the evidence.
Just remember that the tribunal is to sort your PIP claim, not assess what a ****-poor job the IAS did with your assessment.

Syzygy

Hi Zededd and other parties,
Here is the latest from my PIP claim and appeal at the Tribunal service.
DWP wrote to the Tribunal and asked for an extension to allow them time to gather more information regarding my appeal. (at this time I have not received any correspondence from either the DWP, IAS or the Tribunal service) In the meantime I sent a request for SAR's - the information that the IAS and DWP possessed on my claim.

In the meantime just before Christmas I received a letter from the DWP's appeal manager. He said If I needed to talk, then telephone him. He gave me his direct number. I telephoned him as I had one or two questions to ask. His name was James.

He told me that it was more than likely that I would have to have another assessment? I agreed on the understanding that the previous assessor was not going to conduct it. He agreed. I shortly received a letter from the Tribunal Service stating that the DWP had asked for an extension in time to collect further evidence. James telephoned me and asked if I could get a letter from my GP.

In the new year I did this and sent of a request. After 10 days I didn't receive a reply, so on the Thursday 18th January, I telephoned the surgery and was told the request was sitting in a tray awaiting the Doctor to do the letter. The receptionist said 'I wonder what this is doing here'? She said I'll give it to Doctor today and ring us back on Tuesday.

In the meantime I contacted James at the DWP who said he had also sent off a request and was waiting for it.. this was also nearly two weeks ago? I told him that my GP hadn't done the letter for me? He said he would send another request. He told me that the DWP had accepted my version of the assessment, (they had turned the claim down citing my deliberate obstruction in allowing the assessor to complete his task)

I have asked three times for the letter and the DWP have asked twice now. To date, still no letter has been sent. Two weeks ago, I received the SAR from DWP. It backed up my claim that the assessor had said I became, aggressive, violent and shouting at him, being totally false and untrue. My friend who went with me to the assessment provided the Tribunal service with a 3 page written statement and in that statement he told them that the assessor treated me with disrespect, wouldn't allow me to answer or talk and stopped the interview for no apparent reason other than because I wouldn't/couldn't answer a question he asked.

The DWP now say that the assessors version is untrue. A telephone conversion on paper between the DWP and IAS clearly stated that the assessor told them I was Violent, aggressive and shouting at him and that was his reason to stop the interview. I pointed this out to James who asked, 'where did you get that information'? I told him that it was in the SAR's that had been sent to me. He replied, 'Well, I don't have any of that information'?

In the assessors report which was written at the beginning of January it was mostly incomplete. He stated I attended alone, I was on crutches, and he halted the assessment because I became obstructive and refused to answer a question. There was no mention by him now of me supposedly being aggressive, shouting and violent toward him.

I contacted James again, who stated that a re assessment might be needed as my GP had failed to send the letter. I agreed to this on the condition that the assessor who conducted the original took no part and the the new assessor was not told of my previous claim and circumstances due to possible bias. He agreed.

A few days later, Monday 5th February, I received a further appointment to attend a further assessment at the same place on Wednesday 14 February 2018 at 9am.
I attended the assessment as asked again with my friend. Upon entering the centre I spoke to a female assessor who looked nervous and said, your assessment has been cancelled? Did they not tell you? I told her, no they hadn't, and it appeared she wasn't told either!

She telephoned the DWP and asked if they could send via the internet the relevant information and she would conduct the assessment now. They refused. I spoke on their phone to a lady at the DWP who said we will have to send you another appointment, she was unable say why the appointment had been cancelled?

I was told that there was only one day available at the moment which was Monday 5th March 2018, I had a choice of times? I took the 2pm slot. After the conversation finished I told the lady who said that's fine ****** will be here to conduct it? (****** being the first assessor) I had been pressured into taking this date not realising it would be him.

I went home very upset and and angry now for being so messed about. I sent a letter to the Tribunal service that afternoon outlining my frustration with the DWP and IAS citing a possible deliberate act of delaying my claim further which was causing me great stress and confusion now.

Today, I received a letter from the Tribunal service stating they had refused any further extension to the DWP (They had put this in on the 24th January 2018) They stated they had fully accepted my explanation, and directed the DWP to put aside any previous actions, which were now unacceptable.

They directed the DWP to offer a new assessment forthwith and then told me that I am still entitled to appeal the result and make a new appeal if I needed should they (DWP again refuse my claim) I am still awaiting a letter of confirmation for 5th March 2018, I did receive a letter yesterday saying I will have to wait for a further appointment???

James had told me that again they tried to do a paper assessment on me very recently but this was turned down due again to insufficient evidence (Doctors letter) although they possess most of my records and reports from the medical establishment. He said the occupational therapist had also failed to respond. My GP practice which failed, was merged with another practice nearby. Most of the staff were given notice.. and my GP who had been treating me had done a runner, and no one knew where he was? I'm guessing they are unable to supply the DWP or me with a letter as I assume he would need to write it?

I'm beginning to think that bad luck has ridden with me all the way on this. Sorry it's a bit long. I now wish I hadn't bothered.. as I told the Tribunal service how can anyone treat a disabled person this was, it's inhuman and cruel.

Gerry