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PIP Question - Dressing & Undressing (Prosthesis)

Jim77
Jim77 Member Posts: 4 Connected
edited October 2018 in PIP, DLA, and AA
Hello all, thanks for all the great content on this forum it has been very helpful to me and to others to whom I have recommended it.

I am an amputee (leg) and so use a prosthesis and at time crutches.

I recently got a PIP assessment and got awarded 7 points for Daily Living.

I got awarded 0 points for the "dressing and undressing" activity.

I had thought I would be awarded 2 points for this based on "needing and aid or appliance to dress or undress".

All definitions I have read have indicated that a prosthesis is classed as an aid or appliance.

It is quite literally physically impossible for me to put on trousers without first having my prosthesis on and I feel I described this quite well on the form.

This makes me ask the question: Is a leg prosthesis definitely considered an aid/appliance with regards the question "Dressing & Undressing"? I know it is not mentioned in the examples in that question but in every definition I have found in official government papers it says a prosthesis most definitely is classes as an aid/appliance.

Apologies in advance if the above is badly worded or unclear.

Any help or thoughts greatly appreciated.

Jim



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Comments

  • mehrfarbig
    mehrfarbig Member Posts: 33 Connected
    It is classed as an aid or appliance if you need it for dressing IF you couldn't dress at all without it...if you weren't wearing it could you dress yourself? If not, why not? 

    They could say that your prosthesis isn't helping you dress at all as you don't need it to dress yourself.

    Another thing to consider is do you have to wear certain types of clothes to accommodate your prosthesis? 

    If you feel you explained all this you'll have to do an MR and if that fails a tribunal.
    Sarah
  • Jim77
    Jim77 Member Posts: 4 Connected
    Thank you for replying Sarah!

    Yes it is physically impossible to put trousers on before the prosthesis for two reason: 1) I need to attach it to my upper leg, if I put trousers on first I would be unable to do this. 2) After putting trousers on  my lower body, I must stand up to pull them to waist height and fasten the button. The only way I can rise from a seated position is with the prosthesis on i.e. I cannot rise from seated on one leg only (I imagine few, if any, able bodied people could do this either). The only other way I could rise without the prosthesis is with a crutch, which itself is also classed as an aid. This still leaves a scenario in which I cannot then attach my prosthesis.  It is literally a physical impossibility to attach the prosthesis whilst wearing a pair of trousers.

    The Mandatory Reconsideration was rejected and return in amazingly fast time. The reason they gave on the rejection letter would indicate that they did not even take into account the facts I  had listed on my letter. In fact their reason for rejecting the MR was literally a cut and paste of the EXACT text from the original decision letter.

    I plan on taking this to tribunal.

    Thanks again for your help.

    Jim
  • Yadnad
    Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Connected
    This reminds me of the lad who had both legs amputated who walked across a football pitch being televised. It came to the attention of the DWP who re-assessed his walking ability and gave him nothing for mobility.

    As for getting dressed etc I once knew a very capable fellow who had stumps for both arms and legs due to a birth defect. It was amazing watching him get dressed after putting on his 'false legs' . His disabilities have never affected his outlook on life and now is a well known and respected professional.
  • Jim77
    Jim77 Member Posts: 4 Connected
    edited October 2018
    Yadnad said:
    This reminds me of the lad who had both legs amputated who walked across a football pitch being televised. It came to the attention of the DWP who re-assessed his walking ability and gave him nothing for mobility.

    As for getting dressed etc I once knew a very capable fellow who had stumps for both arms and legs due to a birth defect. It was amazing watching him get dressed after putting on his 'false legs' . His disabilities have never affected his outlook on life and now is a well known and respected professional.
    People like that are an inspiration to us all. Love hearing stories like this.
  • CockneyRebel
    CockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,216 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi Jim

    First can I ask what you received the 7 points for ?

    i don't want to sound harsh or uncaring but how would you manage if your prosthesis broke or got damaged ?

    From a DM's point of view, you could lie on a bed to pull up your trousers. Even though it is neccessary to fit your  prosthesis before putting on your trousers for the reasons you state, you could still dress if you could not for some reason wear your leg
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • Jim77
    Jim77 Member Posts: 4 Connected
    Hi CockneyRebel

    Not at all, you do not come across as either of those things and that is a valid point. Thanks for adding to this and bringing in possible objections the DM may have.

    The prosthesis is part of my daily life and it is my understanding that the the "descriptors"  must apply on at least 50% of days. On a normal day and the vast majority of days I use my prosthesis (in fact there is only one time in the past 8 years or so that I didn't and that was due to a fall that injured my leg), I am fortunate enough that I have never had to do without it, mainly down to strictly adhering to my service and review appointments with the prosthesis technician.

    With the above in mind I think scenarios like that you have suggested aren't really applicable i.e. what would I do if my prosthesis was broke. That is not a normal or every day scenario and the question relates to everyday living. The every day scenario is my waking up, prepping my leg and putting on the prosthesis before dressing. I absolutely get your point though and I am not making light of it.

    Thanks for taking the time to reply, I absolutely see your point and it is some food for thought for when I am filling in the appeals form. I will update this thread after the hearing (this may be some months away) as the info could be useful to someone in a similar situation. I suppose the outcome of that will (hopefully) shed some light on how this particular scenario is interpreted.

    Jim
  • Yadnad
    Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Connected
    Jim77 said:
    Yadnad said:
    This reminds me of the lad who had both legs amputated who walked across a football pitch being televised. It came to the attention of the DWP who re-assessed his walking ability and gave him nothing for mobility.

    As for getting dressed etc I once knew a very capable fellow who had stumps for both arms and legs due to a birth defect. It was amazing watching him get dressed after putting on his 'false legs' . His disabilities have never affected his outlook on life and now is a well known and respected professional.
    People like that are an inspiration to us all. Love hearing stories like this.
    Yes very inspirational. We first met when we were in our early 20's and had some very interesting times together as a bunch of testosterone filled guys. The five of us went away for a weekend once and after sneaking into his room in the night we put his legs by the window a fair distance from his bed! Looking back not a nice thing to do but he always saw the funny side of everything - thinking legs? window open? nay he didn't fall out did he?

  • mehrfarbig
    mehrfarbig Member Posts: 33 Connected
    edited October 2018
    From what you've said, from my knowledge and research over the years, your prosthesis wouldn't be classed as being needed to dress yourself if only reason you use it is so trousers fit whilst standing. You could of course say you need your prosthesis for mobility, and to get it on it has to go on before clothes, otherwise you'd need assistance to get your prosthesis on if your trousers went on first. 

    As anything regarding standing and moving around comes under the moving around section and trousers can be pulled up lying down. 

    How is your other leg? Could you lie on your back on your bed, without your prosthesis and pull trousers up? For example if your other leg has any kind of impairment you could say the prosthesis is an aid/appliance because your other leg can't lift your weight independently from a lying down position.

    It is very complicated, as I know under mobility they focus on double amputees more, as I guess they assume you can hop around, who knows. DWP never make much sense!

    I personally think it is ridiculous that it isnt automatically counted as aid/appliance, but DWP have very little common sense it seems. 
    Sarah
  • Stalin
    Stalin Member Posts: 29 Listener
    Hi Jim....I hope you are doing good. Did you manage to take your case to the Tribunal?. If so what was the outcome please?.
  • Stalin
    Stalin Member Posts: 29 Listener
    I have had the same situation, so planning for MR and would like to understand how to approach the MR..
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 28,477 Disability Gamechanger
    Stalin said:
    I have had the same situation, so planning for MR and would like to understand how to approach the MR..
    For this you'll need to put your request in writing within 1 month from the date of the decision. You should state where you think you should have scored those points and your reasons why. Adding 2-3 examples of what happened the last time you attempted that activity for each descriptor that applies to you.

    If you currently have an award do be aware that they look at the whole decision again and not just part of it.

    If there's any lies or contradictions in the report they won't be interested in any of those. All complaints should be sent to the health assessment providers.

    Only 19% of MR decisions change so you may have to take it to Tribunal. Good luck.
  • Stalin
    Stalin Member Posts: 29 Listener
    Thank you poppy. for your information. I have significant deformity with my right leg due to some deformed bone inside of my pelvis area and hence; i use a full length prosthesis for 17 hours a day to manage my daily activities with great support from my wife. I was getting daily living allowance at a standard rate before and it was stopped effective this month 20th as i lost 2 points for dressing and undressing based on the fact that i have  touched my left toes from a wheel chair with out wearing the prosthesis during a face to face consultation which happened 6 weeks ago. However; i am not in a position to stand on a single leg and perform dressing and undressing activities such as pulling of trousers or shorts up from lower body , inserting my deformed right leg in to those, then pulling further high up to waist and then fastening buttons. It demonstrated i need assistance in dressing and undressing and hence; should be allotted 2 points. So, i would like to take this back to DWP through MR and hence; need some good thoughts from all of you on better articulating this to DWP for MR...
  • Stalin
    Stalin Member Posts: 29 Listener
    Also i need to consider assistance required for putting and taking of socks and shoes when seated with normal leg.

  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 28,477 Disability Gamechanger
    Dressing and undressing, the points are the same, whether you need to use and aid or require assistance for dressing/undressing your lower body. Of course you can only score points one for each activity.
  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    @stalin - are you able to dress yourself by sitting down/ lying back on a bed? I ask this because, if I remember correctly, this doesn't count as using an aid....



  • Stalin
    Stalin Member Posts: 29 Listener
    I can  dress my upper body by sitting down. The situation with my lower body is that my left  leg is normal and right leg is up to knee with complete deformity and just 3 figures. The shape of which is extremely bad as an internal bone hasn't not formed properly. To get dressed my lower body by sitting down( not using trousers as they need the prosthesis to be on and which is not treated  as an aid here ) , the problem is i need to stand up to pull trousers up to attach those to my right deformed leg and then carry them all the way up to my waist to fasten buttons. I can't stand with out assistance, so essentially i can't complete dressing or undressing by sitting down on my own. It's extremely difficult to manage dressing and undressing by lying back on bed as it won't allow to reach my left toes to in this position, DWP has removed 2 points  for dressing and undressing as i can reach my left toes in sitting position. Please advise
  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    @stalin - I can only advise that you set out exactly what you've written - which is really comprehensive and explains what your problems are - on your MR.

    I imagine you might be asked how you get dressed on your own, so you might consider covering that?

    Good luck, in any event...
  • Stalin
    Stalin Member Posts: 29 Listener
    Many thanks Cris for your quick response...I am also going to add to the above with the issues that i am facing in putting on taking off socks and shoes. It's extremely difficult to lift my left leg up to required height and complete wearing socks and shoe as i don't have right leg to lean on....So my wife does always assist me in dressing and undressing including putting and taking off socks and shoes...
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 28,477 Disability Gamechanger
    Yes, i agree you should write what you've written above. Then add the examples of what would happen if you didn't have assistance.
  • Stalin
    Stalin Member Posts: 29 Listener
    Sure poppy...Potential examples in case of absence of assistance are..... 1/ I don’t have any body to grab the clothes to be worn from the wardrobe 2/ I end up with the same clothes as I am on so can’t manage my toilet and bathing needs 3/ Can’t go for any outing etc...Does these sufficient?

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