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Recording PIP assessment

OratoryOratory Member Posts: 2 Listener
Hello Can I ask if anyone else has been told that they have to fill a form in before being able to record their home assessment,  but more importantly have they been told that it Must be recorded on TWO old tech tape recorders and one tape must be given to the assessor ?   I was due to have my PIP assessment last Tuesday at my home. Because I have previously had bad experiences with Capita and had lost my PIP even though my conditioned has worsened. The assessor did not have any knowledge of one of my conditions ( Fibromyalgia)  and when I went to tell her what it is she just said "I haven't got time for that as I only have 45 minutes and I have another appointment after this. She was only interested in ticking boxes. The reports were wrong and even my doctor and councillor couldn't understand why they refused me. This time I gave even more evidence including a letter from my GP to advise my conditions are chronic and would only worsen and they advise I am unfit for work  plus a report from an independant doctor from my company pension, the fact I'm using a Buprenorphine patch, Liquid Oramorph, Pregablin plus  other meds but they still insist on a face to face.  I still need to find and buy two tape recorders and tapes and I am not getting any benefits at all. It's unfair that the onus is on a disabled person to find this old tech which hardly anyone owns anymore. I pointed this out when I rang Capita and suggested that as they insist on taping this way then perhap they should provide the equipment. Sorry for the long post but I am still  really frustrated. 

Replies

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi,
    What was the reason the assessment was canceled? was it because you were going to record it and didn't ask permission in time?

    What you've been told is correct. You need to ring the health assessment providers to get permission to record the assessment. You must use two CD/tape recorders and produce two identical copies. Tape recorders are available from argos. In all honesty it's pointless recording a face to face assessment. You're much better off concentrating on gathering some evidence to prove how your conditions affect your ability to carry out the activities based on the PIP descriptors.

    What you stated above does give any reasons why you should score any points at all. PIP isn't about not being fit for work. People claim PIP and work. It's not about a diagnosis, it's how your conditions affect you.

    A letter from your GP with such vague information isn't evidence. Evidence need to state exactly how your conditions affect you. When filling out a PIP form on the front of the form there's 2 list stating what they want to see and what they don't want to see. Supporting letters from a GP and future appointment letters are at least 2 of the things they don't want to see. The reason being is because it doesn't state how you're affected. The onus is on you to prove those descriptors apply and not their responsibility to prove you qualify.

    A health assessment provider doesn't need to have any specific knowledge on a condition because all conditions affect people differently.

    There's never enough of time during any face to face assessment to go through absolutely everything, that's what the forms are for. The more information you put onto the form the better your chances of having an award.

    Most people have face to face assessments for PIP and ESA, it's very rare to have a paper based decision.


    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 27 Connected
    With respect it's not pointless recording assessment. Get all the medical information  you want. On the day the what you say to the assessor is vital and if they don't put that in their report or contradict what you have said you have no chance. So record it and if the assessor lies at least how you say your condition affects you will be the basis of an MR or tribunal and the truth will out. Good luck because believe it or not some of these assessors are corrupt also some are good it's a lottery
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,655 Disability Gamechanger
    edited December 2018
    I’m with @poppy123456 100% on this. Thinking that a HCP has to somehow put down what you say is a complete misunderstanding of their role. They’re not there to write down verbatim what you say. Only 19% of MRs change the decision so let’s focus on how recordings play with a tribunal.

    1 - one tribunal member is a medical professional. Going in all guns blazing against a HCP can be see as an attack and can immediately set one of three against you when ordinarily you’d be kicking at an open door. Most tribunals know how poor HCP reports are. They are bright enough to spot contradictions and anomalies without any help. They’re note interested in the strength of your evidence. It’s not a coincidence fhat between 71% and 75% of such appeals win. Almost none of them require a recording to do that.

    2 - a recording might highlight where you said one thing and the HCP recorded another. And??? It may be that whilst the recording captures the HCP doing something inaccurate a tribunal could find against you anyway if your evidence isn’t strong enough. Proving inaccuracy in one piece of evidence is not going to be enough to get most people PIP.

    3 - as already stated, this case has a pile of medical evidence but nothing is being said about the ability to perform the points scoring activities. If you’re going into an assessment talking about fibromyalgia rather than the functional points scoring consequences of fibromyalgia then your get most grecording is potentially actually going to go against you. Your time would be far better spent learning about PIP and writing down 2 or 3 examples per activity of what happened when you tried  that activity. 

    4 - if the matter goes to appeal there are already significant delays of between 15 and 50+ weeks,. A tribunal receive the same papers as you, often not as far in advance as you would hope. Reading a bundle, even a large one, is straightforward enough. Now, throw in a recording. Every member of the panel will have to have access to a cassette player. Ditto DWP. Should the tape need to be referred to on the day then HMCTS will need one too. What happens if any of them don’t? You are effectively building a delay into your an case and for no clear cut gain. 

    If HMCTS don’t have access to a recorder on the day then the panel will need a full transcription of the recording. It’s your choice to put a recording in as evidence. The onus will absolutely be on you to pay for and provide that. If you can’t do that then it’s within the gift of a tribunal to simply give the recording negligible weight as evidence.

    Still sound like a good idea?

    i fully understand the impulse which makes people think that a recording is a way to guarantee success but it really isn’t. 
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 27 Connected
    Correct it doesn't guarantee anything but if your condition impacts on your daily activities and you have explained that to the assessor and your evidence backs up your conditions but the assessor contradicts your statement because they are corrupt. Then taping is your proof. 3 times I have taped assessments 3 times they have lied and 3 times I won at MR coincidence I don't think so. I would have gone to a tribunal. More wait ing more stress because they lied. Meet Christmas everyone
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 27 Connected
    Oratory I don't know if you have done a MR but if you are doing or have done a MR if not go to the DWP site and find criteria guidielines for assessments for HP. Section face to face assessments. You say that the HP in your home visit did not have any knowledge about fibromyalgia and stated she did not have time for that. That statement is the sort of thing you want to write in your defence and look for others in which you feel like she was unreliable and unfair. Dwp guidelines state that face to face a HP MUST have read your medical evidence and if she does not know what a condition is how can she possibly know how it might impact on your daily living and if it is degenerative then that has a bearing how it is reported. Basically your looking for inconsistencies too prove the HP was unreliable and unfair. The HP evidence passes the info onto a Decision maker and how can a DM make a decision if all the evidence is innacurate. That is why I say tape not just in case the HP lies but to correctly base your case to MR or tribunal otherwise it's you word against theirs and a tribunal may be avoided. I believe ALL interviews should be taped to protect all parties. Let's be honest the numerous cases I've read on here are nothing short cases shameful. People saying the HP has fabriacted lies. The stress and hardship they have caused by forcing people to go to MR and tribunal is a disgrace. Again the vulnerable are the ones who suffer. This site is opinions and some have their own agenda and before get people writing I'm not naming names so don't send hateful messages to me. Again look at the criteria and find points foe your case. In my opinion your HP was unfair and not listening if she said she had another appt to go to. An assessment takes as long as is needed and their own criteria states that you MUST be heard check it out all the best
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,655 Disability Gamechanger
    edited December 2018
    Here’s the link to the guidance.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers

    It’s an excellent resource to use against a HCP but it is guidance. It has no weight of law behind it at all. It doesn’t have to be followed word for word. It merely has to be taken account of. I think you’ll see at paragraph 1.6.5 that it absolutely does not use the word “must” as suggested by @johnnyboy. It says “should”. It is discretionary. The nature of discretion is that there are circumstances in which the thing suggested will not happen. 

    It also doesn’t say that claimants “must” be heard. At 1.6.3 it says that they should feel they have been listened it. That’s a very different thing. 

    The government intend to video record all such interviews going forward but haven’t finalised how this will be done. https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/Forums/viewthread/13014/

    Very much a case of be careful what you wish for. Many claimants will be put off by such a requirement and many will find that they did not in fact say what they thought they said. It’s also likely to delay decisions and cause a significant reduction in the number of people acting as HCPs. There’s zero clarity over who will be responsible for transcribing the recording. 

    Finally, it’s worth saying that just as a GP cannot possibly know all health conditions nor can a HCP. An NHS physio for example doesn’t need to know anything about fibromyalgia to understand what you need. They need to hear what you’re saying about the functional consequences. That’s what the HCP appointment is for. For you to describe the functional consequences. 

    Whilst @johnnyboy has got themselves an early result 3 times it’s worth noting that if you make an argument for a 10 year award at the outset then you don’t have to do the same thing 3 times and, as well as that, going to appeal and getting a full statement of reasons/record of proceedings is a clear cut way of pointing a renewal claim in the right direction. It’s not for everyone just like recording is not for everyone.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 27 Connected
    Stop trying to find faults in what I'm writing to oratory. You want to criticise and find faults fine but it's not about you and me. I addressed some of his points and if you don't think not knowing about a condition and not having the time is professional and unfair and telling the claimant that they have another appt in 45 mins is acceptable then let's agree to disagree. I believe recording would have been good in his case im not here to convince you. Your MUST and SHOULD argument is insulting whose side are you on...really. Any assessment that takes longer because it needs transcribing then fine as long as the right decision is made. It's not like going to an MR and Tribunal is a quick process. When I think there is a large number of people who attend tribunals that should never get to that stage shouldn't we be looking at why does that happen and finding a way to stop the hurt and stress. It appears they do hear but are not listening. Your physio remark I'm really not getting it. I don't need you quoting me what I've said. I told oratory to check the DWP site out himself before he appeals not to put what I say as u would state verbatim. Im trying to help if he doesnt take my advice thats fine because thats all it is advice. He sounded upset and scared so givng him the links is a great idea well done more positivity please. Merry Christmas and please don't comment on this because I will not counter any negativity toward me when I am only trying to help. I dont know anybody that has 10 year award but you obviously do.
    I do know people who had DLA for life then under PIP had it taken away and awarded nothing only to be given it back at tribunal. I am closing my account from today because i didn't come on for an argument or put downs. All the best Merry Christmas
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 27 Connected
    For oratory only the word SHOULD is all throughout the pip criteria for HPs. Therefore they can say do or write what they want so again please tape in future. It is as Michael says at their discretion so is open to corruption. Wishing you all the best.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,655 Disability Gamechanger
    No, actually I don’t want to criticise and find faults but you said something was in the guidance when it plainly isn’t. My “must” and “should” comments are about legal accuracy and are posted from the perspective of having been in advice work for more than 3 decades. The “side” I am on is that of accuracy. If you don’t understand that those terms are not the same then please don’t advise on the matter. It is misleading to say they “must”. 

    The issue of transcription is hugely important because whilst waiting longer is okay for you it clearly isn’t for most others given the many posts where people are stressing over delays having only just submitted claims let alone the long delays in MRs and appeals. 

    If you would like a private conversation with the OP then this site offers that facility but if you post on a thread it’s open to comment so I don’t welcome your lecture on what I should or should not comment on. 

    Added you to the “ignore” list so that will end the discussion to your satisfaction.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 27 Connected
    No comment your not listening. Goodbye
  • Sam_AlumniSam_Alumni Scope alumni Posts: 7,729 Disability Gamechanger
    Please keep in mind our community rules, you may disagree with another member, but please consider your tone and language.
    Scope
    Senior online community officer
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