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Horrendous pip appeal yesterday

Josieb15
Josieb15 Member Posts: 4 Listener
edited December 2018 in PIP, DLA, and AA
Hi, I had the most awful experience yesterday at my appeal, a person in a criminal court would have been treated better.... I have Autoimmune addison's disease, hypothyroid, chronic fatigue, Osteoporosis, depression and anxiety, and angina,chronic back pain. I just wanted to ask a question, the legal person there was cross examining me on a hospital consultant letter which was dated Jan 2018.... My date of assessment by capita was the 8th June, also they were questioning me about another condition which I never have applied for alcohol problem drinking which started 4 years into my diagnosis with addison's disease... Can anyone help me as I am on my own and just don't know what way to turn. 
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Comments

  • steve51
    steve51 Member Posts: 7,154 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @Josieb15

    It’s great to meet you today!!!!!

    I am very very sorry to read your post !!!!!!!!!

    We have got lots of info and advice on here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Yes I would be very very happy ? in helping you.

    Please please let me know how you feel????
  • Richard_Scope
    Richard_Scope Posts: 3,106

    Scope community team

    Good to meet you. It sounds like you have had a very difficult experience. You are amongst friends here.
    Just to get you started we have a How To Guide here, you can see all the latest posts here, jump in and get involved and don't worry we are a friendly bunch!  
    If you need anything, just let us know. 




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  • markyboy
    markyboy Member Posts: 367 Pioneering
    I presume you did not get your result at the hearing so just wait for a few days till you get the news you could be surprised or if you are not happy with the decision come back and post again and you will get advice on how to proceed but for the time being there is nothing you can do 
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Posts: 8,847 Connected
    The original post talks of asking a question but then doesn’t. So, what’s the question?
  • Josieb15
    Josieb15 Member Posts: 4 Listener
    Hi there, sorry I meant that my date of assessment was on 8th June this year and she was interrogating me on my problems now, I thought that they could only talk about time of claim/assessment... Is this true? 
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Posts: 8,847 Connected
    No, not at all. What you’re like now can give a tribunal insight into what you were like previously. It can also help them decide whether you satisfy the forwards test in some circumstances 
  • Josieb15
    Josieb15 Member Posts: 4 Listener
    Oh really, did not know that... Thanks
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Posts: 8,847 Connected
    Their decision is based on what you’re like on the date of claim but filling out evidence before or after that makes no sense. Would you rule out a consultants letter because it was a day after the claim etc?
  • Yadnad
    Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Connected
    Their decision is based on what you’re like on the date of claim but filling out evidence before or after that makes no sense. Would you rule out a consultants letter because it was a day after the claim etc?
    I don't know about a day or so after the claim, but the DWP certainly refuse to entertain reports and evidence that are more than 2 years old. The reports were dated 2011 & 2012 and were as relevant in 2017 as they were when they were written - yet the case manager reported that they were unreliable due to time issues and were therefore not considered.
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Posts: 8,847 Connected
    DWP “try” and rule out non-contemporaneous evidence and understandably so but the validity of a piece of evidence depends entirely on context.
  • Yadnad
    Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Connected
    DWP “try” and rule out non-contemporaneous evidence and understandably so but the validity of a piece of evidence depends entirely on context.
    The evidence that I mentioned was however used by the DWP in 2013 and 2015 to change those decisions from 0 points to enhanced care & mobility at MR stage.

  • Josieb15
    Josieb15 Member Posts: 4 Listener
    Hi all, got my pip decision, I kept my care element and lost my full mobility element
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Posts: 8,847 Connected
    Yadnad said:
    DWP “try” and rule out non-contemporaneous evidence and understandably so but the validity of a piece of evidence depends entirely on context.
    The evidence that I mentioned was however used by the DWP in 2013 and 2015 to change those decisions from 0 points to enhanced care & mobility at MR stage.

    So? What would be inconsistent about that?
  • Yadnad
    Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Connected
    Yadnad said:
    DWP “try” and rule out non-contemporaneous evidence and understandably so but the validity of a piece of evidence depends entirely on context.
    The evidence that I mentioned was however used by the DWP in 2013 and 2015 to change those decisions from 0 points to enhanced care & mobility at MR stage.

    So? What would be inconsistent about that?
    Given that the DWP tell you that all evidence should be no more than 2 years old Yet in 2013 the evidence (dated 2011 & 2012) was up to 2 years old which is fine. Then in 2015, using the same evidence, which by now was up to 4 years old resulted in a MR change to Enhanced Care & Mobility.

    Then again in 2017 the same evidence was submitted (now up to 6 years old) was said to be over two years old and unreliable.

    If it was acceptable in 2015 when it was up to 4 years old why then 2 years later was it deemed not acceptable because it breached the 2 year rule?

    That's not consistent.
     
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Posts: 8,847 Connected
    What the DWP tell you is largely irrelevant. I’ve no idea why anyone would listen to a word they say. There is no rule as to the date befor or after which evidence can or cannot be admitted. Both DWP and HMCTS have started to assert that there is but it’s abject nonsense. Evidence from 20 years ago will be irrelevant in many cases but absolutely relevant in others. It’s all context dependent.
  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    What the DWP tell you is largely irrelevant. I’ve no idea why anyone would listen to a word they say. There is no rule as to the date befor or after which evidence can or cannot be admitted. Both DWP and HMCTS have started to assert that there is but it’s abject nonsense. Evidence from 20 years ago will be irrelevant in many cases but absolutely relevant in others. It’s all context dependent.
    I agree. I've never heard of this 'more than two years old' nonsense.

    All of the medical evidence that I submitted was 8 years old. I was diagnosed with a degenerative neurological condition in 2010 - I never thought to ask the consultant for a second opinion so that i would have something more recent.



  • Yadnad
    Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Connected
    cristobal said:
    What the DWP tell you is largely irrelevant. I’ve no idea why anyone would listen to a word they say. There is no rule as to the date befor or after which evidence can or cannot be admitted. Both DWP and HMCTS have started to assert that there is but it’s abject nonsense. Evidence from 20 years ago will be irrelevant in many cases but absolutely relevant in others. It’s all context dependent.
    I agree. I've never heard of this 'more than two years old' nonsense.

    All of the medical evidence that I submitted was 8 years old. I was diagnosed with a degenerative neurological condition in 2010 - I never thought to ask the consultant for a second opinion so that i would have something more recent.
    The little blighters!! The DWP now seem to have changed the content of the PIP2 claim form as well as the notes that come with the form. On the old one it specifically said that the DWP did not want to see any evidence that was more than 2 years old - it also gave a long list of NOT what to send.

    This is typical DWP, the last form that I filled in was the old version and based on that they threw out all of the very relevant evidence that was over two years old when making their decision.

    The new version basically says ANY evidence will be used with no time restriction being applied. So yes you are right in that the DWP could use your evidence of 8 years ago.


    Mike, .were you aware that they DWP have changed the criteria for further evidence?

    It does however beg the question that if they accepted evidence from 20 years ago because it was still relevant both in content and context, what comfort would the DWP have in that no changes to the impact have actually taken place in those 20 years?

  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Posts: 8,847 Connected
    There is no change. The form has been tweaked. There has been no change in the law, guidance or caselaw. You can ignore anything the DWP say on the matter. 
  • Tardis
    Tardis Member Posts: 214 Pioneering
    edited December 2018
    @yadnad; surely you send (copies of) evidence that backs up your claim, regardless of age.  Why on earth do you keep going over this?  
  • Yadnad
    Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Connected
    There is no change. The form has been tweaked. There has been no change in the law, guidance or caselaw. You can ignore anything the DWP say on the matter. 
    Tweaked??

    It's a bit more than that - they have changed all manner of advice in their notes and on the claim form. What has happened to the instruction not to send evidence that is more than 2 years old, where is the list of what not to send?

    I accepted the last PIP decision after MR on the basis of what they said on the form at the time - their decision to refuse to use my evidence coincided with their comments on the claim form - it was more than 2 years old.

    It really does leave one wondering just what you should be doing - saying one thing then another depending on the date the form was printed.

    If that is the case that everyone should ignore anything that the DWP say, where does that leave the claimant - never really knowing what to believe or who?


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