If we become concerned about you or anyone else while using one of our services, we will act in line with our safeguarding policy and procedures. This may involve sharing this information with relevant authorities to ensure we comply with our policies and legal obligations.

Horrendous pip appeal yesterday

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Josieb15
Josieb15 Community member Posts: 4 Listener
edited December 2018 in PIP, DLA, and AA
Hi, I had the most awful experience yesterday at my appeal, a person in a criminal court would have been treated better.... I have Autoimmune addison's disease, hypothyroid, chronic fatigue, Osteoporosis, depression and anxiety, and angina,chronic back pain. I just wanted to ask a question, the legal person there was cross examining me on a hospital consultant letter which was dated Jan 2018.... My date of assessment by capita was the 8th June, also they were questioning me about another condition which I never have applied for alcohol problem drinking which started 4 years into my diagnosis with addison's disease... Can anyone help me as I am on my own and just don't know what way to turn. 
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Comments

  • steve51
    steve51 Community member Posts: 7,147 Championing
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    Hi @Josieb15

    It’s great to meet you today!!!!!

    I am very very sorry to read your post !!!!!!!!!

    We have got lots of info and advice on here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Yes I would be very very happy ? in helping you.

    Please please let me know how you feel????
  • Richard_Scope
    Richard_Scope Posts: 3,638 Scope online community team
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    Good to meet you. It sounds like you have had a very difficult experience. You are amongst friends here.
    Just to get you started we have a How To Guide here, you can see all the latest posts here, jump in and get involved and don't worry we are a friendly bunch!  
    If you need anything, just let us know. 




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    Want to tell us about your experience in the community? Talk to our

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    and let us know.

  • markyboy
    markyboy Community member Posts: 367 Empowering
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    I presume you did not get your result at the hearing so just wait for a few days till you get the news you could be surprised or if you are not happy with the decision come back and post again and you will get advice on how to proceed but for the time being there is nothing you can do 
  • Josieb15
    Josieb15 Community member Posts: 4 Listener
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    Hi there, sorry I meant that my date of assessment was on 8th June this year and she was interrogating me on my problems now, I thought that they could only talk about time of claim/assessment... Is this true? 
  • Josieb15
    Josieb15 Community member Posts: 4 Listener
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    Oh really, did not know that... Thanks
  • Yadnad
    Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Championing
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    Their decision is based on what you’re like on the date of claim but filling out evidence before or after that makes no sense. Would you rule out a consultants letter because it was a day after the claim etc?
    I don't know about a day or so after the claim, but the DWP certainly refuse to entertain reports and evidence that are more than 2 years old. The reports were dated 2011 & 2012 and were as relevant in 2017 as they were when they were written - yet the case manager reported that they were unreliable due to time issues and were therefore not considered.
  • Yadnad
    Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Championing
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    DWP “try” and rule out non-contemporaneous evidence and understandably so but the validity of a piece of evidence depends entirely on context.
    The evidence that I mentioned was however used by the DWP in 2013 and 2015 to change those decisions from 0 points to enhanced care & mobility at MR stage.

  • Josieb15
    Josieb15 Community member Posts: 4 Listener
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    Hi all, got my pip decision, I kept my care element and lost my full mobility element
  • Yadnad
    Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Championing
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    Yadnad said:
    DWP “try” and rule out non-contemporaneous evidence and understandably so but the validity of a piece of evidence depends entirely on context.
    The evidence that I mentioned was however used by the DWP in 2013 and 2015 to change those decisions from 0 points to enhanced care & mobility at MR stage.

    So? What would be inconsistent about that?
    Given that the DWP tell you that all evidence should be no more than 2 years old Yet in 2013 the evidence (dated 2011 & 2012) was up to 2 years old which is fine. Then in 2015, using the same evidence, which by now was up to 4 years old resulted in a MR change to Enhanced Care & Mobility.

    Then again in 2017 the same evidence was submitted (now up to 6 years old) was said to be over two years old and unreliable.

    If it was acceptable in 2015 when it was up to 4 years old why then 2 years later was it deemed not acceptable because it breached the 2 year rule?

    That's not consistent.
     
  • cristobal
    cristobal Community member Posts: 984 Championing
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    What the DWP tell you is largely irrelevant. I’ve no idea why anyone would listen to a word they say. There is no rule as to the date befor or after which evidence can or cannot be admitted. Both DWP and HMCTS have started to assert that there is but it’s abject nonsense. Evidence from 20 years ago will be irrelevant in many cases but absolutely relevant in others. It’s all context dependent.
    I agree. I've never heard of this 'more than two years old' nonsense.

    All of the medical evidence that I submitted was 8 years old. I was diagnosed with a degenerative neurological condition in 2010 - I never thought to ask the consultant for a second opinion so that i would have something more recent.



  • Yadnad
    Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Championing
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    cristobal said:
    What the DWP tell you is largely irrelevant. I’ve no idea why anyone would listen to a word they say. There is no rule as to the date befor or after which evidence can or cannot be admitted. Both DWP and HMCTS have started to assert that there is but it’s abject nonsense. Evidence from 20 years ago will be irrelevant in many cases but absolutely relevant in others. It’s all context dependent.
    I agree. I've never heard of this 'more than two years old' nonsense.

    All of the medical evidence that I submitted was 8 years old. I was diagnosed with a degenerative neurological condition in 2010 - I never thought to ask the consultant for a second opinion so that i would have something more recent.
    The little blighters!! The DWP now seem to have changed the content of the PIP2 claim form as well as the notes that come with the form. On the old one it specifically said that the DWP did not want to see any evidence that was more than 2 years old - it also gave a long list of NOT what to send.

    This is typical DWP, the last form that I filled in was the old version and based on that they threw out all of the very relevant evidence that was over two years old when making their decision.

    The new version basically says ANY evidence will be used with no time restriction being applied. So yes you are right in that the DWP could use your evidence of 8 years ago.


    Mike, .were you aware that they DWP have changed the criteria for further evidence?

    It does however beg the question that if they accepted evidence from 20 years ago because it was still relevant both in content and context, what comfort would the DWP have in that no changes to the impact have actually taken place in those 20 years?

  • Tardis
    Tardis Community member Posts: 214 Empowering
    edited December 2018
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    @yadnad; surely you send (copies of) evidence that backs up your claim, regardless of age.  Why on earth do you keep going over this?  
  • Yadnad
    Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Championing
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    There is no change. The form has been tweaked. There has been no change in the law, guidance or caselaw. You can ignore anything the DWP say on the matter. 
    Tweaked??

    It's a bit more than that - they have changed all manner of advice in their notes and on the claim form. What has happened to the instruction not to send evidence that is more than 2 years old, where is the list of what not to send?

    I accepted the last PIP decision after MR on the basis of what they said on the form at the time - their decision to refuse to use my evidence coincided with their comments on the claim form - it was more than 2 years old.

    It really does leave one wondering just what you should be doing - saying one thing then another depending on the date the form was printed.

    If that is the case that everyone should ignore anything that the DWP say, where does that leave the claimant - never really knowing what to believe or who?


  • Yadnad
    Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Championing
    edited December 2018
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    Tardis said:
    @yadnad; surely you send (copies of) evidence that backs up your claim, regardless of age.  Why on earth do you keep going over this?  
    Of course I did. With the last review/reclaim I sent the same evidence that I had used two years earlier in 2015 (which the DWP accepted) and again previously in 2013 ( which they accepted).
    It was all and still is very relevant to what my issues are today. The impact on my life hasn't changed, I can't grow a new brain or a new spine or new pancreas, new blood vessels in my legs or stomach, spleen or liver.
    It will still be relevant in 10 years time.

  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 57,287 Championing
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    The list of what not to send and what to send is still on the PIP review form, i know this because my daughter had her review form not long ago.

    The advice not to send evidence that's more than 2 years old is still there but who listens to that?? I certainly never do.

    I've never had a problem sending evidence that's more than 2 years old. I did it for my last PIP review 2 years ago and i did it for my last ESA review a few months ago. In fact the evidence i sent for my ESA review was dated 2015 and it was used without any problems at all. I'll be doing the same thing again for my next PIP review.

    You really do make life hard for yourself yadnad.....
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • Yadnad
    Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Championing
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    I’ll say it again then. There is no change. The form has been tweaked. No more no less. There has been no change in the law, caselaw or guidance. You can ignore anything the DWP say on the matter. I have to say that as an ex civil servant I am utterly incredulous that you would think it okay to rely on what’s in a form abc notes rather than the law etc, That’s pretty basic stuff. It is no longer a surprise to me you’ve struggled with the claim process. You seem to take delight in posting how you’ve managed at every step to do the least obvious/dumbest thing but then make it sound like the most obvious and that everyone is doing it. 
    It probably hasn't changed, but a claimant normally goes with the instructions that the DWP send out - they, like myself, doesn't normally have access to the law, guidance or case law.

    Yes I have always done things with regards to the notes - re-applying for DLA in 2011 as well as IIDB again in 2011.

    What I have done is obvious to me.
     
  • justg72
    justg72 Community member Posts: 173 Empowering
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    Hi
    I have had different experiences with both the DWP and advice agencies. I have had an advice agency giving me no support with my MR appeal or my tribunal as I showed them my paperwork and thought what a waste of time as he didnt help me at all. To then attending a different advice centre to support my friend with her PIP. I then got talking about myself having to go to a tribunal and the advice agent who was helping my friend said book an appointment and come and see me, which I have and he said he was going to look at my tribunal paperwork to see if I had a strong case. I produced a letter from my epileptic specialist which stated that I had burnt myself and had a near drowning experience in the bath and was lucky to be alive . The advice agent could not believe that I was awarded 0 for daily care especially the cooking and bathing part as I had evidence to back this up from a specialist! the advice agent is waiting for my tribunal paperwork and if he thinks I have a strong case he is going to write to DWP and ask them to look at my PIP again. It just goes to show that some agencies are better than others thats my experience. 
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 57,287 Championing
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    Yadnad said:

     but a claimant normally goes with the instructions that the DWP send out - they, like myself, doesn't normally have access to the law, guidance or case law.

    Nope, not me and i haven't a single clue about case law etc. You seem to be one of very few people that like to stick to what DWP say.... enough said...
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • Yadnad
    Yadnad Posts: 2,856 Championing
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    You really do make life hard for yourself yadnad.....
    Has no clue what to do or who to listen to but somehow knows when advisers are not advising him correctly. One increasingly suspects that it’s not so much a case of there not being advice where he lives as advice agencies simply declining to deal with him. 

    Quite literally needs to go to an advice service and let them get on with it. 
    Advising correctly?

    My history with the local advisory services has left me either miss trusting their (CROP) ability aka my wife's AA claim & appeal, (CAB) failing to contact me when promised leaving me having to complete the PIP2 on my own, the inability to answer questions(AgeUK) and being told they only help fill out forms.

    No one has declined to deal with me, it's the service that I have had, or lack of it, that has caused the problem.  
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 57,287 Championing
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    What i don't understand is if CAB failed to contact you why on earth didn't you chase them about it? Yet again my mind really does boggle.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
If we become concerned about you or anyone else while using one of our services, we will act in line with our safeguarding policy and procedures. This may involve sharing this information with relevant authorities to ensure we comply with our policies and legal obligations.

Find out how to let us know if you're concerned about another member's safety.