wrong descriptor chosen by Assessor

neanie12

Morning all,
I've also had nightmares with PIP but after getting online access to my medical records it's become a little easier.
All problems are detailed in medical records and if you tap your problem your lead to a general descriptor, I've screenshot each problem and it's descriptor on my records then gone through my copies of the assessor report by each heading and written the relevant problem and descriptor. I got my PIP reinstated and am now challenging the actual award.

I think my biggest win was pointing out that as I'm under specialist medical care it is unreasonable to accept that a nurse, Dr, physiotherapist or computer has the capacity to assess and they should rely on the expert reports placed before them instead of attempting to supercede them.

Also keep a log of all your calls and the info and proof, ie screenshot them as you never get told the same thing twice and that adds to the issues

braca

poppy123456
Can you look at my posts on this thread again please and give your own guidance, I have taken on board that you mentioned PIP is not about diagnosis, I guess my conditions are invisible and assessor gives their opinion on the day about how you function.
In my PA4 report there is blatant mistake from assessor regarding chosen descriptor from what they have justified and no one from Assessment provider or DWP has picked up on this and my own opinion is that this casts doubt on the whole report.

I am at the moment waiting on MR regarding this issue...

Yadnad

braca said:

poppy123456
Can you look at my posts on this thread again please and give your own guidance, I have taken on board that you mentioned PIP is not about diagnosis, I guess my conditions are invisible and assessor gives their opinion on the day about how you function.
In my PA4 report there is blatant mistake from assessor regarding chosen descriptor from what they have justified and no one from Assessment provider or DWP has picked up on this and my own opinion is that this casts doubt on the whole report.

I am at the moment waiting on MR regarding this issue...

Will those extra 2 points for an aid make any difference to the decision already made?

It may well be a 'slip of the pen' which would not make the overall report unsafe to rely on.

poppy123456

braca said:

poppy123456
Can you look at my posts on this thread again please and give your own guidance, I have taken on board that you mentioned PIP is not about diagnosis, I guess my conditions are invisible and assessor gives their opinion on the day about how you function.
In my PA4 report there is blatant mistake from assessor regarding chosen descriptor from what they have justified and no one from Assessment provider or DWP has picked up on this and my own opinion is that this casts doubt on the whole report.

I am at the moment waiting on MR regarding this issue...

All you can do is point out the contradiction. Does those 2 extra points change your award?

I'm not sure why it would doubt the whole report.

braca

Update... Justification for descriptor that gave myself wrong points has now been rectified and correct points awarded, Mandatory reconsideration has resulted in fair award but still well short of points expected, I can say there was no lies told in report just a difference of opinion and justice has been achieved by sheer weight of evidence from my own doctors /consultants, IAS assessor probably wont even know what anxiety and stress I have been put through fighting there opinion on my PIP PA4 report and have no grudge against them but it is the system put in place by our government that is flawed and not fit for purpose !!!

Adrian_Scope

Hi @braca, thanks for updating us. I'm glad you've now been awarded the correct points, it's just such a shame you've had to fight so hard for them.

madquasimodo

A word of advice if your thinking of asking your MP for help, check his voting record, if you find he has consistently voted against benefits you wont get much help, (my local MP is tory and has a poor record for anything to do with benefits) While offering a pat on the back they mostly don't help. 
My partner has PIP2 and then F2F we had the assessors report, when up for review early she scored exactly the same in all descriptors, the only change was the ROM, which I swear was just a copy paste job, the details and measurements were nothing like the assessment, only when faced with a doctor at Tribunal was the first award changed, I am sure someone will say the forms are marked the same because that's all that applied, but we had not been to Neurologist/Physio/rehabilitation for the first award, all the reports were ignored at the second assessment, even the DWP own disability analyst. 

braca

I would be very surprised if my local MP knew anything about PIP Mandatory reconsideration and assessment providers AIS/Capita. In my own case PIP assessor made mistake on descriptor choice and as they are trained to degree level on disability and mental health issues this should never have been passed through their thorough audit system and  then passed onto DWP Case manager who themselves did a thorough audit on PA4 report which is most important to all PIP claims and what Case manager decides on what level of PIP ( if any ) are awarded. In my case decision was wrong and after Mandatory reconsideration was altered in my favour and more to cover up report and decision by assessor and case manager in my own opinion and still did not achieve full points that I deserved and will mull over things for a day or two and then decide if I want to apply to Tribunal!!! No offence against Case manager or assessor it is just the whole Flawed system and these people are only following there own rules albeit being very well paid for it...OH DEAR.

braca

If it is of any help to claimants applying MR for PIP as in my case was denied PIP but highlighted in my case of being awarded wrong points and as one Scope poster told me it was probably a slip of the pen ? and one of the issues raised by my assessor was that I was on low pain medication ? anyway fast forward and wrong point chosen by first assessor has been adjusted and from what I can read from MR decision that was sent back to IAS and different assessor said that I was taking high level of pain medication  ? now this is what I do not understand is that all assessors are taught to IAS degree level but get two  different answers to points awarded !!! please help and advise me as pulling out what is left of me hair...

Waylay

@braca They're definitely NOT trained to degree level on disability and mental health! They're either doctors (extremely rare), physios, nurses, OTs, or paramedics, so of course they've done their qualification. Unless they're already a specialist of some kindh (e.g. MH nurse) their disability/MH training is limited to a few weeks. You can find a lot of the training materials online. Even when they have no idea what a claimant's condition is, the DWP says it doesn't matter because they're assessing the claimant's function. Sometimes, yes. Other times? Laughable! 

Apparently they do tend to judge severity of a condition by the meds the claimant is taking. I understand why, but it isn't likely to provide useful info in a lot of cases. As people have said, many claimants don't want to take higher-level meds, for various reasons, including side effects. Also, people react to meds differently. I, for example, can only take 300mg gabapentin once daily, which is below the effective dose. Any higher and I sleep 23hrs a day. I recently dropped the dose down to 200 and then 100mg  to seesif it was actually working, and it definitely was!  Back uputo 300 now. I react to diazepamdsimilarly.

One of the biggestbissues here isithat peoples' reactions to opioids are highly variable. It's one of the reasons that the CDC rule limiting maximum opioid dosage is a farce. One patient might be taking 30mg morphine and get good relief, while a very similar patient might need 300. This is partly genetic, partly due to interactions with other meds, and partly whoknows? Different people even react differently to different opioids, so oxycodone may do very little for me, but an equivalent dose of codeine really helps .

So yeah, using med doses, particularly for opioids, is likely to be useful in some cases, and very misleading in others.

Waylay

If you look at equivalence charts for opioids online (with all the caveats above), you'll see that they tend to be different from each other. You'll also see that different medical sites describe opioids differently. I looked up 400mg tramadol + oral morphine for breakthrough pain after an assessor wrote that I was taking moderate pain meds. (I was also on a bunch of other pain meds). That combo was variously described as for "moderate", "low-moderate", "moderate-severe" and "severe" pain! If the NHS, NICE, and other reputable sources can't agree, how can assessors?

Waylay

Btw, my Dad worked in pharmaceutical testing for 32 years, and has a PhD in pharmacokinetics, and I picked up some useful stuff from him.

Waylay

Oh, 1 more thing: Some people simply don't react at all to opiates, others to opioids like tramadol, and a few react to neither (eek!). My partner is one of the former. Had surgery, given codeine, in absolute agony, called surgeon's office. He prescribed tramadol instead. That worked. 

Waylay

Oops, 1 more thing:
@Yadnad They regularly use old PA4s, but they apparently don't have access to tribunal papers, so they end up using PA4s that were really badly done, even ones that were set aside by the tribunal (happened in my last PIP horror).

twonker

ilovecats said:

Also @yadnad asked for his account to he deleted, however @twonker seems to write in a suspiciously similar manner and has not yet denied they are one and the same! ?

Do I? Well unfortunately your suspicions are exactly that, suspicions. People have accused me of many things in my lifetime, including being the twin double of someone they know. I was told of being my deceased uncle's brother at his funeral - I can't have aged well.

No I am not related to the name you give.

Ami2301

To all members of our community, please be clear of the rules in our community guidelines. We aim to create a safe and supportive space for all and discourage any inappropriate comments made towards other members.

braca

in my own case system has been proved to be flawed with wrong descriptor chosen and not picked up by case manager!!! at my F2F review assessor was not slow in telling myself how much training she has received and puts this to good youse when writing reports at PIP F2F and giving good honest views on 60 minute interview. PS. Think my assessor and case manager had Red faces when my MR was adjusted to show correct points and higher award given.

twonker

In cases like that I have read that when at the next review/face to face assessment, the assessor only has sight of the original decision notice and points awarded. What ever happens from that point on they have no knowledge of.
So for all intents and purposes the previous report and decision still stands as being correct which the next assessor is likely to follow if you are unlucky.

braca

@Twonker Can you advise if all MRs are sent back to assessment provider for rework ? My own MR was sent back and  supporting evidence looked at again more thoroughly by new assessor.

Assessors themselves are under pressure by their own management to produce F2F reports for DWP maybe without having had time to look at claimants evidence and this can lead to mistakes and wrong points awarded... At my own PIP F2F review assessor asked question about mobility and because I did not answer on her terms it became a little bit heated and she was getting annoyed !! outcome in report was I had declined to give further information about mobility despite numerous questions ?  If only she had listened to my answer and had the time to look at evidence from pain consultant ( His pain is exacerbated by activities and walking and noted this gentleman's exercise tolerance is limited due to his pain symptoms. The letter also recommends the use of a morphine based prolonged release pain relief used in the management of chronic severe pain.) Assessor put down on pa4 report he is not prescribed significantly high levels of pain medication. ? My opinion here is assessor at F2F review was only concerned about getting her report passed IAS audit and let DWP deal with the final outcome. As my welfare rights worker says Case manager at DWP only look at the dots and count up the points..

I had my MR wrote out before getting decision as had requested PA4 report. I then sent it off same day decision arrived and sent in more evidence relevant to my claim up to the last day. I must have caught Case Managers eye as my MR was sent back to IAS for rework and resulting in more points awarded although length of award could have been longer. timescale for MR from start to decision was 12 weeks ( very stressful ) Good luck to all on forum putting in for MR and as has been said before have evidence give examples of why you need help and support. 

Fetlock

No, they aren't all sent back.

They're usually sent back if the case manager notices contradictions in the report ie they may say no specialist input when there is or no pain relief when there is etc. If for the MR further evidence is sent in then they may refer back to a HP for advice then too