PIP, DLA and AA
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ATOS report

RickyMRRickyMR Member Posts: 13 Connected
edited January 2019 in PIP, DLA and AA
I received my copy of the ATOS  Assessors report and I cannot believe some of the things she has said. I have had the enhanced rate for mobility and daily living for the last two years but I can see already she has been determined that I only get the standard rate for both. I think she must have thought I had some miraculous recovery over the last two years when in fact my conditions have got worse. Even my GP agrees with me. I eagerly await the DWP decision so I can immediately ask for  Mandatory Reconsideration.

Replies

  • Antonia_AlumniAntonia_Alumni Scope alumni Posts: 1,781 Pioneering
    Hi @RickyMR

    I am sorry to hear about the outcome. I hope the DWP decision works out in your favour. Please keep us updated.
  • RickyMRRickyMR Member Posts: 13 Connected
    Thanks for that. I am expecting "their verdict" any day now. I am assuming from what I have already heard that the DWP only looks at the Assessors report and doesnt take into account all the previous evidence you have submitted with your form?
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi,

    It's rare for them to go against the report but it can and does happen.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • RickyMRRickyMR Member Posts: 13 Connected
    Yes I thought so. Its a shame because all the medical evidence I have sent supports my disabilities and so it is wrong to just accept what the Assessor says.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    edited February 2019
    RickyMR said:
    Yes I thought so. Its a shame because all the medical evidence I have sent supports my disabilities and so it is wrong to just accept what the Assessor says.
    It may well do so, but the DWP see the assessors report as being objective and accurate and that it was carried out by a professional who has been trained as a disability analyst. Compare that to what you GP may say.

    I came to the conclusion that there does not appear to be any need to send in evidence pre the face to face assessment as I agree it is very rarely looked at or considered. Sometimes I also wonder why we bother to be factual at the assessment, more often that not they will write what they want in any event

  • RickyMRRickyMR Member Posts: 13 Connected
    I totally agree with you. I had sent copies of all ultrasound reports and Consultants reports and letters but all that seemed to have been ignored by the Assessor who incidentally said she was a Nurse. The whole assessment took one and three quarter hours and I felt brainwashed. A lot of the time she was asking me what exams I had when I left school and where I worked when left school. That was 54 years ago. as I am 70 now. Also what books  I liked to read and what DVDs I liked to watch etc etc. What has that got to do with my present disabilities. .
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger

    @RickyMR …from my own assessment, and reading the posts on here, it seems to me that the assessors are trained to asked about ‘irrelevant’ stuff which can then be used as evidence of an applicants functionality. For example, if you watch a DVD or read a book:-

    You probably have the dexterity/grip to get the DVD out of the case, and are able to bend to put it in the player.

    You can grip a book, and have sufficient cognitive skills to be able to read it and follow the plot etc…



  • RickyMRRickyMR Member Posts: 13 Connected
    I see what you mean but they do not take into account that you have bad days and very bad days. I think they are trained to trick you and trap you. From what I gather and from my own experience some Assessors are very sympathetic and ask the appropriate questions and do not try and put words in your mouth. Others like my last one wasnt very pleasant or sympathetic.
  • BungalowBungalow Member Posts: 43 Courageous
    I have had the same experience, there seems to be a common theme with PIP, they do base it on the day and the assessors assumptions and lets face it that is what it is and ignore medical professionals how it effects you. I had a fairly good day on mine and told her that which isn't often, but I was awarded on points what they believe is your health on the day. It is wrong and the system is broken . I was even advised to go in and pretend what I am like on a very bad day how crazy is that !!!!! 
  • RickyMRRickyMR Member Posts: 13 Connected
    I know what you mean. It also depends on whether the Assessor likes you or not I think. A friend of mines husband applied for PIP and had bladder cancer amongst other medical conditions and was told by the Assessor that he wasn't ill enough yet because he "might recover" and wasn't awarded anything. His Wife appealed and by the time the DWP decided to award him the enhanced rate it was a week after he died when she got their decision, The whole system needs to be looked at again.
  • BungalowBungalow Member Posts: 43 Courageous
    edited February 2019
    That is awful Ricky , I could cry listening to some of the things people have to go through. The sad thing is you have worked all your life and paid into the system thinking when it is needed it will be there. The safety net is being pulled from us through no fault of our own and now the retirement age put forward for me six years? . I didn't ask to be disabled, a serious accident seen to that and it could happen to anyone. All of a sudden all the things you take for granted your lifestyle you health is gone and it is hard enough having to adjust to a life with limitations without all of this .

     This system was created thanks to programmes of people scamming the system now its private firms that are doing it openly and innocent people are being dragged down with it. The suffering going on is appalling it is taking us back to Victorian times slowly . 

    I wish I had the strength to fight my decision but I know my mental health will suffer along with my physical health. Atos and Capita have two years for improvement , to me it is just another two years where people are not getting vital financial support . It is still happening even with all the media hype they are failing along with evidence in Parliament. If you have the strength fight it . I praise all the people that fight this awful unfair system, they are fighting for the rest of us . 
  • sue66sue66 Member Posts: 124 Pioneering
    Well put Bungalow, why oh why isn't this problem being listened to and changed now!  Two years! your kidding, I wish  and people in my family wonder why ive said im not even going to bother to apply for the PIP when I get the dreaded  form in. Im so lucky im still  receiving my DLA for the time being anyways. 

  • BungalowBungalow Member Posts: 43 Courageous
    It is being addressed in Parliament but the Brexit is overshadowing Benefit Reforms . It looks like Atos and Capita's contract is being renewed for another two years even though they are failing and costing more than the old system ever did? they say they need the time to bring it back in house for them to sort out their IT systems ? we will have to watch this space :smile: hopefully the system will have have been addressed sue by the time you have to transfer over. There are PIP applicants that are successful and go through without problems . I wouldn't worry until you need to .
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    edited February 2019
    Bungalow said:

     This system was created thanks to programmes of people scamming the system now its private firms that are doing it openly and innocent people are being dragged down with it. The suffering going on is appalling it is taking us back to Victorian times slowly . 

    It wasn't created for that reason. DLA became so open to many more people than it was designed for back in 1992. Blame the courts, they were the ones that twisted the intentions of DLA. It was getting to a stage that the more courts that were making perverse decisions in allowing more claims, the cost was going through the roof. At least the government realised this for PIP. If a court tries to change the intention of PIP, the government try to step in to change the law to defeat it.
    That is why PIP is so black and white - you either fit a descriptor or you don't. 

    As for bringing the assessment process back in house - be careful what you wish for.
    The last time they did that with DLA the decision making was just as bad as it is with PIP.

  • BungalowBungalow Member Posts: 43 Courageous
    Is any system perfect Yadnad , It may have not been the only reason but it is clearly one of them. It is still not fit for purpose clearly . I hope they do sort it out otherwise we will have disabled people destitute. Yes it needed to be changed but this clearly is not working :smile: Everyone is entitled to an opinion I stated mine without getting too political.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    Bungalow said:
    Is any system perfect Yadnad , It may have not been the only reason but it is clearly one of them. It is still not fit for purpose clearly . I hope they do sort it out otherwise we will have disabled people destitute. Yes it needed to be changed but this clearly is not working :smile: Everyone is entitled to an opinion I stated mine without getting too political.
    I honestly believe that in order to pacify everybody who is or who thinks they are disabled the government should go back to the self assessed basis. The claimant is the only person who knows what their limitations are in life.

    The only trouble with that will be the huge rise in the amount of money being paid out but set against that there will be the savings of very few appeals to be heard and the cost of assessing with be ZERO as you will assess yourself.,  
  • BungalowBungalow Member Posts: 43 Courageous
    I think you are getting far too political look at the 1st entry from Ricky . It is about how the assessments are conducted and their is strong evidence in parliament to substantiate this . 68% of appeals are being overturned , that is a system that is clearly not working at assessment level. I wouldn't even know how to start making a system fairer . That is why we have politicians :smiley: we could go on all night politics without a glass of wine would be unbearable . You have your voice I have mine lets agree to disagree and go back to the issue at hand for you to have an input with Rick which is more important than our beliefs in a politics arena . Thank you for your input I will certainly take on board your comments :wink:
  • RickyMRRickyMR Member Posts: 13 Connected
    Wow. I certainly seem to have started a big debate. It is a big comfort to get so much input from people who understand and are so sympathetic and passionate. I big thanks to everyone. : :)
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    Bungalow said:
    I think you are getting far too political look at the 1st entry from Ricky . It is about how the assessments are conducted and their is strong evidence in parliament to substantiate this . 68% of appeals are being overturned , that is a system that is clearly not working at assessment level. I wouldn't even know how to start making a system fairer . That is why we have politicians :smiley: we could go on all night politics without a glass of wine would be unbearable . You have your voice I have mine lets agree to disagree and go back to the issue at hand for you to have an input with Rick which is more important than our beliefs in a politics arena . Thank you for your input I will certainly take on board your comments :wink:
    Let me put what you say into perspective. The vast majority of PIP claimants are awarded the correct level first time. Only a very small percentage fail. Of those not all go through the appeal process. Those that do go through the appeal process, even a smaller percentage, approx. 7% win if they don't appear in person, less that 50% win if they don't have professional representation and approx. 70% win if they have professional support.

    All in all by comparison to the total number of PIP claimants only a very small percentage win at a Tribunal. 
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    The whole system is corrupt, it has no bearing on reality at all. If you can walk 200m on level ground, in their language, that's means you are fit for work. If you watch TV, that means you have good concentration. If you make a cup of tea, that means you have good coordination. When you sit in front of the assessor and then get up from the chair to leave, that means you joints are good. Breathing by yourself will get you 0 points these days, that's how bad it is.

    The next time I have to see one of those scam WCA nurses, I will simply say "don't know" or "I am not sure" and "can't remember" to every stupid question. Because it is no good telling them you can walk 200m unless you know of a job that pays you to walk 200m, or a job that pays you to sit in a chair doing nothing. None of this has anything to do with the real world we live in and when they deny benefits for those reasons, it proves the WCA is fundamentally flawed and should be scrapped immediately. 

    Unless of course they are saying, the NHS is not fit for purpose, then we need to scrap the NHS and use Maximus who will cure us all by asking stupid questions and awarding 0 points, then I can join the army or the air force as I have been declared 100% fit by a nurse. 
  • MatthewD1985MatthewD1985 Member Posts: 31 Connected
    It really is a waste of time having assessments in the first place. I feel they need to just take the doctors word for it to be fair they really are the ones best placed to say if someone should be at work or not, its not exactly easy to go into a doctors and get a sick note for a illness you don't have and to sustain getting follow on notes too. If i was a Dr. I would be very offended that my diagnoses were being invalidated by box ticking bureaucrats and would wonder why the DWP needs them anyway if they just make up their own mind. Ill health is such a broad spectrum you cant have a one size fits all model for assessing peoples health that are all so different and sometimes really specialised.. The outcomes of assessments can be at polar opposites for someone with exactly the same health conditions - so it clearly doesn't work. I can be experiencing mania for about 6-12 weeks them for the following 2 months I can't go outside the front door during which time I would rather starve than face anyone I don't open letters and can't bear answering the door or phone sometimes, compared to being overly active, happy (ecstatic sometimes) and being disorganised, not finishing anything off and being quite irresponsible. So its hard to get that across in an assessment.  When I had a PIP assessment i was going through a very manic period, when they turned up i was burning toast so smoke alarm was going theyknocked the door and in the excitement i knocked a tin of gloss diwn the stairs which burst at the bottom causing panic mode so as you can imagine my claim from the old DLA to PIP was smooth and therefore I am lucky but I know some have real issues with even getting a home visit to the point they just have give up the claim. Very unfair.
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    That's it exactly Matthew, they tell you to provide sick notes, but at the same time they are refusing to accept those sick notes as proof you are not fit for work. So why are they asking for medical information when they have no intention of accepting it. That act alone proves the system is corrupt. 

    And how can a nurse say people are fit for work when they have been examined by doctors, consultants and specialists who say they are not fit for work. 
  • BungalowBungalow Member Posts: 43 Courageous
    edited February 2019
    I think PIP assessments are amazing , I had mine and I am cured I no longer have Vertigo, I can use my right arm that was broken in four places and gone to malunion, I can shower myself with no help  which is true if I just stand there lol .My husband is an AID he has a new job.

     I wouldn't  live on sandwiches as I can cook with one arm , even tho hands riddled in Arthritis. I wear hearing aids but I can hear perfectly well  , I have a stiff neck from having a broken neck hardly able to turn head sometimes .Thank you nurse you could have done this two years ago and saved me a lot of pain as it is all in my head oh and I lie too just to get this amazing amount of money to top up my small wages . Wonderful, of course PIP works :wink:
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    It is indeed a miracle Bungalow, you must have wept with joy when they told you had been cured. If only the NHS knew that all the sickness and pain in the world could be cured by ticking a few boxes. 
  • RickyMRRickyMR Member Posts: 13 Connected
    I wonder if any of the Assessors  read all the negative comments they get. I hardly ever see any positive ones. I assume it doesnt bother them because they get paid good money do the assessments. I read mainly negative comments on all of the forums on sites    for disabled people. Something needs to be done and quick about sorting out why there are so many problems. Do they not realise they we do not chose to be disabled and all we want is some help when we most need it. My GP was very angry that all the medical evidence seems to have been ignored. 
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    I don't think it is wrong to criticise a system that serves no useful purpose other than to deny benefits to those who are entitled to claim them. A system designed to undermine medical experts with the highest medical degrees by people with the lowest medical degrees, if indeed they have any qualifications at all. People who are barely qualified to change dressings and wipe patients backsides, all of a sudden, they are experts in all medical matters, if you can believe that.    
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    I'll start the good stories off here, just to prove that they are out there but we rarely hear about them.

    I claimed PIP for the first time in 2013, after being refused DLA. Waited 11 months for an assessment, decision was made and awarded Standard for both. Already placed into the Support Group earlier that same year.

    Review came 2 years later, 4 days after my assessment a decision was made, standard for daily living, increased mobility to Enhanced for 3 years.

    ESA paper based assessment in 2016 to remain in the Support Group.

    ESA assessment October 2018 but this time a face to face assessment  was needed. Decision 2 weeks later, remain in the Support Group.

    Applied for PIP for my daughter August 2017, face to face assessment needed, at home. 5-6 weeks later decision made, Enhanced for both parts.

    In all honesty, i've never had a bad HCP for any assessment. For my PIP review the HCP could see i was freezing as it was a really cold winters day. I went into the room and she turned the heating up for me, 5 minutes later she asked if i was feeling warmer. Assessment lasted 10 minutes.

    For my very latest ESA assessment the HCP i had was so lovely, mobility issues is just part of my conditions and she let me hold onto her arm while she helped me into the room. She waited while i stopped several times on the way. The chair i sat in was really low and i was unable to get back up, she held out both hands to help me up and then again let me hold onto her arm while she helped me out the door to meet my daughter who was waiting with the car. She wasn't at all bothered about the time it took me to walk out of the centre and kept telling me to take my time.

    All assessment reports were received and they were all truthful, with the exception of just one contradiction in my daughters PIP report. I didn't bother challenging this because with a score of 16 points for daily living and 12 for mobility, it wouldn't have made any difference anyway.

    So the good stories are most definitely out there because i'm proof of that. I also know there's others here that have also had no issues either.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    ilovecats said:

    "Barely qualified to change dressings and wipe patients backsides" . . .

    I think you'll find they are all over qualified to perform such tasks but they'd do it anyway with a smile on their face. 


    The nurses I see sit in front of a computer screen, ignore expert medical evidence, ask stupid questions and then make up lies to cover their deception. 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Medical evidence stating a diagnosis, and what medication you take isn't going to award you PIP.

    Evidence telling them how your conditions affect you against the PIP descriptors is what you should be sending, alone with a form that gives as much information as possible about how your conditions affect you. Adding 2-3 examples of what happened the last time you attempted that activity for each descriptor that applies to you, is even better.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • BungalowBungalow Member Posts: 43 Courageous
    I had a good result :smile: first time through the system was ok with it but not happy, it wasn't about the points I had it was the whole process, that is why I am not appealing. I realised my gripe was how the assessments are done with the inconsistencies and errors, which I was annoyed with especially when I first read the report.

    If I had argued with it I probably wouldn't have scored any more points just a principle thing with me and how it made me feel and the realisation I was more focused on what was said and the accusation I was lying.  Consultant reports being contradicted when they are not qualified to do this, so i decided to accept it. It seems to be a common theme with a some claimants. 

    This had nothing to do with myself not having all the correct information or not being prepared, or wasting tax payers money. The system without a doubt needs improving, more training for the health practitioners? even they moan about how the whole system is set up and how it can be unfair , just like Universal Credit , now that's another story lol ... 
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    I am sure there are many good stories out there Poppy, for eg you don't need any medical qualifications to see people in wheel chairs are disabled, people with no legs or arms, people with the minds of children, you can't deny benefits to people like that.

    There are plenty of people who look perfectly normal but have some form of wasting illness like MS, dementia, parkinsons, mental health issues etc to name but a few, none of which can be seen by the naked eye, those are the ones being denied benefit.
  • BungalowBungalow Member Posts: 43 Courageous
    I am a bit confused pardon my ignorance , but peeps go on about it is not about medical evidence but how it effects you. Without the medical evidence how can you prove how anything effects you? now I'm just confusing myself :smile: lol
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger

    There are plenty of people who look perfectly normal but have some form of wasting illness like MS, dementia, parkinsons, mental health issues etc to name but a few, none of which can be seen by the naked eye, those are the ones being denied benefit.
    My daughter has an invisible condition, ASD, learning disability and social anxiety disorder of childhood. She claims Enhanced for both. I also personally know 2 other people that have mental health issues, that claim PIP and ESA. Lots of people with invisible conditions claim them without any problems at all.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    I am sure there are many good stories out there Poppy, for eg you don't need any medical qualifications to see people in wheel chairs are disabled, people with no legs or arms, people with the minds of children, you can't deny benefits to people like that.

    There are plenty of people who look perfectly normal but have some form of wasting illness like MS, dementia, parkinsons, mental health issues etc to name but a few, none of which can be seen by the naked eye, those are the ones being denied benefit.
    I couldn't have made the point any clearer myself.

    Unfortunately with some of these 'hidden' conditions they manifest  themselves in ways that the assessor would down grade you on. One for example is outbursts of temper and being downright objectional caused through frustration. I am one such person as I cannot stand inadequacy in it's many forms in others whether real or perceived. I can be bombastic, arrogant and argumentative.
     How the assessor should deal with that I don't know.
  • BungalowBungalow Member Posts: 43 Courageous
    hahahah yadnad you do make me smile lol ....
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Medical evidence from a GP is never the best evidence to send, they will only know how your conditions affect you if you tell them. They will only be able to tell the basics like medication and what appointments you've had and what for.

    Medical evidence is only good if it's from a community mental health team because this states in a lot of detail exactly how your conditions affect you.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • BungalowBungalow Member Posts: 43 Courageous
    I'm coming to you Poppy when I am up for renewal to navigate the complexities of PIP :smiley: It just confuses the life out of me to be honest.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    edited February 2019
    Medical evidence is only good if it's from a community mental health team because this states in a lot of detail exactly how your conditions affect you.
    Yep got to agree with you.

    As you may or may not know, back in 2012 I had a whole series of tests and scans relating to brain function carried out by the CMHT for Older People . You are right those reports, one in particular, went on through 6 pages including what the effects were on me and how the issues impacted on how I lived my life. 

    I know you have said it before that there is no rule on how old a report can be if it is still relevant years later. Yes that report actually was the reason in 2013 and 2015 that changed my PIP award from 0 points to Enhanced Care. 

    Unfortunately the DWP refused to use it in 2017 citing that it was too old! Hence why the MR did not change.

    But I will agree reports of that type and nature are a godsend.
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering

    My daughter has an invisible condition, ASD, learning disability and social anxiety disorder of childhood. She claims Enhanced for both. I also personally know 2 other people that have mental health issues, that claim PIP and ESA. Lots of people with invisible conditions claim them without any problems at all.

    It must be severe enough to be visible then, otherwise she wouldn't get a penny.

    Maybe it is just me, I keep meeting nurses who lie. I have been to 3 maybe 4 tribunals, won each time and I still find myself having to go through another tribunal. 

    I have already asked about this on here anyway, like how many times can the DWP send you to tribunal, and you said they can send you as many times as they like. That does not sound like a system that is working properly to me, its a downright abuse of process at the very least. 
  • BungalowBungalow Member Posts: 43 Courageous
    edited February 2019
    1.6m are being reviewed under mental health claims for PIP I think that say's it all about the system for mental health . 
  • BungalowBungalow Member Posts: 43 Courageous
    Benistmonk ,, that is shocking I hadn't realised you can go round and round in a system that's clearly not working like this : 
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    Bungalow said:
    Benistmonk ,, that is shocking I hadn't realised you can go round and round in a system that's clearly not working like this : 
    Apparently there is no limit as to how many times or how often the DWP can have you assessed. I am living proof of that fact, so yes, you can be hauled in any time the DWP feels like it.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger

    My daughter has an invisible condition, ASD, learning disability and social anxiety disorder of childhood. She claims Enhanced for both. I also personally know 2 other people that have mental health issues, that claim PIP and ESA. Lots of people with invisible conditions claim them without any problems at all.

    It must be severe enough to be visible then, otherwise she wouldn't get a penny.

    No, it's invisible. To look at her you'd think nothing was wrong. Not sure why you think people with these conditions won't receive a penny. You're so far from the truth.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    Bungalow said:
    Benistmonk ,, that is shocking I hadn't realised you can go round and round in a system that's clearly not working like this : 
    Apparently there is no limit as to how many times or how often the DWP can have you assessed. I am living proof of that fact, so yes, you can be hauled in any time the DWP feels like it.
    Absolutely correct. I was 70 when I had the results last year of my 3rd re-assessment for PIP which again came back 0 points - just like the previous two.
    At that point I gave up with PIP and did not appeal.
    My thoughts are like just like you are hearing about - I have always had 3 year awards, but to be re-assessed after 2 years. On that basis I would be looking forward to having assessments every other year until I die.
    On the assumption that I actually peg it when I am 90, that would mean a further 10 more reassessments, 10 possible failures and 10 further fights to get what I am entitled to.
  • djbantiquesdjbantiques Member Posts: 43 Connected
    Bungalow said:
    Benistmonk ,, that is shocking I hadn't realised you can go round and round in a system that's clearly not working like this : 
    Apparently there is no limit as to how many times or how often the DWP can have you assessed. I am living proof of that fact, so yes, you can be hauled in any time the DWP feels like it.
    The best course of action is to ask for a longer award.
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering

    My daughter has an invisible condition, ASD, learning disability and social anxiety disorder of childhood. She claims Enhanced for both. I also personally know 2 other people that have mental health issues, that claim PIP and ESA. Lots of people with invisible conditions claim them without any problems at all.

    It must be severe enough to be visible then, otherwise she wouldn't get a penny.

    No, it's invisible. To look at her you'd think nothing was wrong. Not sure why you think people with these conditions won't receive a penny. You're so far from the truth.
    It must be evident when you speak to her, or are you going to tell me she sounds normal as well. That is what I mean by visible, it would become immediately apparent to anyone speaking to her that something is wrong.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Yes she speaks normally but what difference does that make? Like i said to look at her, you'd think there's nothing wrong. Spend just 30 minutes with her and you'll soon begin to notice things aren't as they first seemed.

    Autism assessment report, Educational health care plan, learning disability report, social services care plan, all prove her conditions, the way she's affected. what she can and can't do, the help and support she needs every single day of her life.

    Two of these reports come from the community mental health team, the best evidence you can give because it states exactly how they are affected.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    Bungalow said:
    Benistmonk ,, that is shocking I hadn't realised you can go round and round in a system that's clearly not working like this : 
    Apparently there is no limit as to how many times or how often the DWP can have you assessed. I am living proof of that fact, so yes, you can be hauled in any time the DWP feels like it.
    The best course of action is to ask for a longer award.
    The way I see it is better to accept what you are given by the FTT. Of course I could appeal to UT and risk losing the original award, that's why I don't take it further.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    edited February 2019
    Bungalow said:
    Benistmonk ,, that is shocking I hadn't realised you can go round and round in a system that's clearly not working like this : 
    Apparently there is no limit as to how many times or how often the DWP can have you assessed. I am living proof of that fact, so yes, you can be hauled in any time the DWP feels like it.
    The best course of action is to ask for a longer award.
    You can ask and much the same as asking your bank for an interest free loan of £1m but you will most likely not get it.

    The decision as to the points to be awarded and the length of the award rests entirely with the DWP case manager and is based on what the assessor recommends.

    There is no reason however that once you get the award letter and you disagree with the length of the award you can ask for a MR and if that doesn't change it appeal to the Tribunal.
    You have to remember that it is for you to present evidence both orally and in written form that on the balance of probabilities you should be given a longer award period. What that evidence could be I have no idea and wouldn't know where to start to find it hence why I could not challenge my award period - the award yes but not the length of it. 
    Very few people actually challenge the length and just accept what they are given.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    ilovecats said:
    Bungalow said:
    1.6m are being reviewed under mental health claims for PIP I think that say's it all about the system for mental health . 
    They are being reviewed because the criteria was changed due to complaints about how the descriptors were applied to mental health.

    What that that means going forward is that anyone with a mental health condition will have to prove they suffer from ‘overwhelming psychological distress’ in order to satisfy a lot of the mental health descriptors. That is a hard thing to prove. If you are able to turn up at assessment and get through it then the OPD descriptors are unlike to apply  to you. Just feeling anxious or having the odd panic attack wont score anymore.

    This means that where a sympathetic assessor would score someone a B for Activity 9 and 11, they now have to score them an A unless there is hard evidence of OPD to score them higher.
    If you want to read the full facts of the High Court decision:

    https://www.inclusionlondon.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/171221-Scanned-version-of-judgment.pdf
  • BungalowBungalow Member Posts: 43 Courageous
    Yes that was part of it, the other factors were the mismanagement of the PIP process.
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    Bungalow said:
    Yes that was part of it, the other factors were the mismanagement of the PIP process.
    There was no mismanagement. An Upper Tribunal decided that the descriptor should include for those who suffer mental health. It was clear that this had never been the intent when the PIP regulations were made. Following that case it would leave the gates wide open for 10,000's of claimants to claim where previously everybody accepted that they couldn't. So to close that open gate the government brought in further regulations to close it tight.

    Then the High Court got involved and said that the government were wrong to introduce this new amendment. 

    Like what happened with DLA, courts are now intent in defining what the law says in ways that it was never intended to operate. As soon as the DWP try to block these court rulings to take it all back to what the original intention of what PIP was everybody kicks off.  

    Personally I don't like PIP and I don't like hearing that the courts are able to change what the original legislation was. You might as well abolish democracy and Westminster and just let the courts decide how they would want to assess claimants for a disability based benefit.
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    The government is so determined to make UC work that they don't care about breaking existing laws to achieve that goal. So of course the courts are going to pull them up when they see laws that contradict and are at odds with previous rulings, that is the job of the courts, to test laws and make sure they are legal.

    That's why we have an appeals process to argue with the way the law is applied, has it been done correctly or not and so on. Still doesn't stop the DWP from moving the goalposts whenever they feel like it, but at least it gives us peasants half a chance at getting some form of justice. 
  • YadnadYadnad Posts: 2,856 Member
    I agree where the courts rule on making sure that whatever the law says it is upheld.
    But to go that one step further and try to amend/alter the law is ridiculous.This is what the Upper Tribunal did - they changed the way a descriptor should be read. The Government tried to step in and block that change of terminology so as to preserve what was meant when the Act was enacted.

    This is what happened with DLA. When you look back at who was said to be entitled to the benefit in 1992 and look how it had been changed by subsequent courts it became unworkable. 
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    I don't think judges can alter the law. Parliament makes the law, judges have to interpret what the law means. Of course if the government has screwed up, like they have here, they can always alter the law to say exactly what they mean. 
  • STANDUPOAPSTANDUPOAP Posts: 60 Member
    What to include with this form.
    You MUST include a copy of the MANDATORY RECONSIDERATION NOTICE which shows the decision you are appealing against . You do not need to include evidence / information you have sent to DWP as they will send it to us as part of their response.-----------  Now this is what I.m talking about. The courts are saying the DWP will not withhold any evidence / or information you have already sent. Why would the Courts say this, are they supposed to be impartial? My SSCS1 form was left out by DWP.  My MP xxxxxxxx sent a letter to the Courts asking if my SSCS1 was not in my defence papers and correspondence and if it should have been? Here is part of the letter I received two days ago from my MP that was sent to him from xxxxxxxxxx,Clerk to the Tribunal, Customer Contact Team, Birmingham Administrative Support Centre (ASC) 
    SSCS1 FORM
    I note from xxxxxxxxxxxx email that he is concerned that the SSCS1 has not been included. I've checked the appeal papers and can confirm we have the SSCS1 form in her appeal file, but the form was not part of the Department for Work and Pensions (dwp) submission, when it should be. I have now added a copy as part of her appeal bundle and sent xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxa copy on 25 January 2019. 
    So as i said if they (DWP) can leave out information as they did. How can the Courts tell you no need to include evidence/ information. 
    And now all the SSCS1 forms ever filled by PIP claimants will need to be reassessed due to this Error of LAW.?  or whatever?
    Not sure how this is going to get sorted, I feel because the Courts had our SSCS1 form same time as DWP. Then 6 weeks later the dwp send my wife and Courts their response, how come the Courts didn't notice this?  Other Question. What would have happened in Court when we used or related to or SSCS1 form. Would this be allowed? error of Law? When xxxxxxxxsays he has added a copy to her bundle, why? We sent the Courts the SSCS1 copy by registered post in October 2018. Other Question. He makes no mention nor does my MP that they have reported this to DWP ?  
    Report this to you MP they could have left out evidence / information in your case, when form by Courts states the DWP  will not leave out information. How has the Courts allowed to make this Statement on this Form? It's not true?

  • STANDUPOAPSTANDUPOAP Posts: 60 Member
    RickyMR.
    Early days for you at moment, but advice i'd give, do as I did. Every piece of information you got or sent, COPY it. Registered mail post it. Don't allow them to leave out crucial evidence / information as they did in my wife's appeal. And lastly GOOD LUCK MATE STAY STRONG.
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    Hi Standupoap, why would the DWP have your SSCS1 appeal form?

    When you receive the MR letter, it is up to you to send the SSCS1 and MR to the tribunal service. 
  • STANDUPOAPSTANDUPOAP Posts: 60 Member
    Because I sent them a copy of SSCS1 form within the 28 day period and the form states they will send all to me and the Courts
    The Courts had a copy I sent them same time I sent DWP.
     The Courts say in letter to my MP the DWP should have included the SSCS1 form as part of my information / evidence.. This DWP bundle 100 page in my case, did not have the SSCS1 form. as the Courts states it would. Which is my point exactly.
  • STANDUPOAPSTANDUPOAP Posts: 60 Member
    Thanks for your reply Benistmonk, appreciated.
  • justg72justg72 Member Posts: 173 Pioneering
    Hi All
    I agree with many of the comments above. I have had successful PIP assessments and have had enhanced for both. However this time I scored 0 for both. The HCP answered questions which weren't asked and also lied and twisted things I had said. I also had strong  evidence from my epileptic nurse stating uncontrolled epilepsy and I had daily grand mal seizures. She also explained how my condition affected me against the descriptors. This is what she put: cooking and went on to say that I had burnt myself and I had left the cooker on and nearly burnt the house down, lucky my son came home because of seizure. Nurse advised no cooking. Bathing nurse said that I had had a seizure and nearly drowned in bath because I had no supervision, advice supervision at all times. The HCP awarded 0, this is only a  few examples, or and  my disability is invisible. So some are corrupt. Tribunal next step.
  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    justg72 said:
    Hi All
    I agree with many of the comments above. I have had successful PIP assessments and have had enhanced for both. However this time I scored 0 for both. The HCP answered questions which weren't asked and also lied and twisted things I had said. I also had strong  evidence from my epileptic nurse stating uncontrolled epilepsy and I had daily grand mal seizures. She also explained how my condition affected me against the descriptors. This is what she put: cooking and went on to say that I had burnt myself and I had left the cooker on and nearly burnt the house down, lucky my son came home because of seizure. Nurse advised no cooking. Bathing nurse said that I had had a seizure and nearly drowned in bath because I had no supervision, advice supervision at all times. The HCP awarded 0, this is only a  few examples, or and  my disability is invisible. So some are corrupt. Tribunal next step.
    There is no doubt about it in my mind, I would say most of them are totally corrupt. I have seen 2 cases recently in the papers, one was a man with an eating disorder who only weighed 6 stone, the other was an old lady who was blind, had crippling arthritis and type 2 diabetes and couldn't even make a cup of tea for herself, those people had no quality of life and may not be long for this world due to illness, both were declared fit for work by criminals.

    When you see cases like that, its not just the assessors who are corrupt, the whole bloody system is corrupt and that includes the government for allowing this to happen.
  • RickyMRRickyMR Member Posts: 13 Connected
    I agree wholeheartedly. It makes me want to weep not only for myself but for all the other poor disabled people who deserve to be treated better by this Country. . I like many others have worked all my life from when I was sixteen until retirement and never claimed  a penny out of the State, and now need help you have to fight for everything. At least we have all you lovely supporters and can vent our frustrations on people who understand.
  • MatthewD1985MatthewD1985 Member Posts: 31 Connected
    edited February 2019
    Yadnad said:
    Medical evidence is only good if it's from a community mental health team because this states in a lot of detail exactly how your conditions affect you.
    Yep got to agree with you.

    As you may or may not know, back in 2012 I had a whole series of tests and scans relating to brain function carried out by the CMHT for Older People . You are right those reports, one in particular, went on through 6 pages including what the effects were on me and how the issues impacted on how I lived my life. 

    I know you have said it before that there is no rule on how old a report can be if it is still relevant years later. Yes that report actually was the reason in 2013 and 2015 that changed my PIP award from 0 points to Enhanced Care. 

    Unfortunately the DWP refused to use it in 2017 citing that it was too old! Hence why the MR did not change.

    But I will agree reports of that type and nature are a godsend.


    I had a good report written by my CMHT Nurse that I had regular contact with, along with a letter from the doctor at the welsh gov where I worked saying that I was capable of doing my job very well but that the social anxiety of being at work was affecting my mental health significantly. However since I turned 30 3 years ago the early intervention service discharged me as is only available to people up to 30, I was not told and as a result have been waiting to be seen by the adult mental health team ever since, I went for an assessment with a social worker and i had a letter to see psychiatrist but the letter arrived on the day of the appointment and as post doesn't turn up until about half 11 so i had missed it by then, They literally sent the letter 2nd class 2 days before appointment then cancelled my referral into the mental health service for not showing - so not only do we have to battle with the welfare system we are now battling with the NHS just to see someone and they are doing things to try make sure we miss appointments and not have access to services we pay for, despite having waited years anyway with only a contact number for a crisis and shed loads of antipsychotics and lorazepam. So I was lucky they used those pieces of evidence as well as GP info for my most recent claim - but otherwise I would have no way of getting g anyone with specialist knowledge about my condition as I still only have the GP and this emergency number myself. Despite having a serious condition and taking very strong medication that should be being monitored and isn't, my GP surgery takes blood etc to ensure there have been no physical adverse affects, but these antipsychotics I am on - risperidone as well as lorazepam, lyrica-pregabalin and fluoxetine are quite serious drugs and my GP is not happy to change these tablets as he didn't prescribe them and is worried that my mental health might deteriorate and there isn't anyone there that can really make that decision. Its a crazy situation TBH..

  • BenistmonkBenistmonk Member Posts: 343 Pioneering
    I agree, it does you good to get it off your chest, I find it relaxes me to share the burden with like minded people who know what you are going through, even if I rant a bit about the injustice of it all. I am pretty sure some DWP and HCP' s read these forums and I dare say some of them post on here as well, so it is nice to be able to say what you think of them.

    Looking on the bright side, I don't think things can get any worse. 
  • MatthewD1985MatthewD1985 Member Posts: 31 Connected
    edited February 2019

    Two words Benistmonk 'Universal' and Credit'!!

    Though saying that I have heard they are considering the option of choosing the payment frequency so it won't be monthly and the 5 week wait problem solved, but that will be new claims and I don't they have started it yet or even agreed it. Politicians are way too wrapped up in Brexit in even think about any of this stuff and surely when we leave they will preoccupied with new trade relations and re structuring the economy. I doubt increasing public spending will be top of the list (even though the reforms have done just that in the DWP). They say they have saved money but that's only because they have closed every other jobcentre taken away crisis loans, community care grants and disability premiums. Its also very difficult to speak to anyone to just sit down with you and go through the claim. I rememeber the days you could go in the job centre to just look for a job or if you wanted to claim you could go in and someone would help you. You could even just get advice etc by just walking in and there was not as much stigma going in then either because anyone would be able to just walk in, some would have their work uniforms just looking to change etc, others looking to claim. But now I feel really embarrassed when I have to go in there because people think your a scrounger and now you are met with sometimes aggressive security asking what you want and you have to wait 2-3 days to talk to anyone with any knowledge.. It wasn't perfect before but this is definitely not better and I hop the politicians find time to change it soon!!

  • RickyMRRickyMR Member Posts: 13 Connected
    As I already knew because I had the Assessors Report I got the bad news today  that I have only been awarded the standard rate daily living and standard rate mobility. I was getting enhanced mobility for life on DLA nd then when changed to PIP I was given the enhanced rate. On the two year review though I have now been given only the stndard rate even though my conditions are worse. I lost it by 2 points on both as my Assessor was completely uninterested in anything I had to say regarding good days and bad days. She seemed determined that I was not going to get the enhanced rates again. I have today telephoned and asked for a Mandatory Reconsideration and followed this up in writing. Wish me luck.
  • ChrizyRChrizyR Member Posts: 3 Listener
    RickyMR said:
    As I already knew because I had the Assessors Report I got the bad news today  that I have only been awarded the standard rate daily living and standard rate mobility. I was getting enhanced mobility for life on DLA nd then when changed to PIP I was given the enhanced rate. On the two year review though I have now been given only the stndard rate even though my conditions are worse. I lost it by 2 points on both as my Assessor was completely uninterested in anything I had to say regarding good days and bad days. She seemed determined that I was not going to get the enhanced rates again. I have today telephoned and asked for a Mandatory Reconsideration and followed this up in writing. Wish me luck.
    Could I ask how your appeal went?
    I am now in the same boat as you were, whereby I have had the ATOS report and it is totally inaccurate based on my mobility so am expecting the DWP to go along with the assessor's view and award me basic level mobility and daily living allowance!

  • RickyMRRickyMR Member Posts: 13 Connected
    I won my appeal and had the  enhanced daily living and enhanced mobility  reinstated.  The Case Worker for the DWP agreed with me that the Assossor had inacurately not taken into account medical evidence etc. She also had not passed a Hospital report that I had given her to the DWP. She should have scanned it and sent it with her report. I had my money backdated and was awarded until  December 2021.Hopefully the light touch review will soon apply to existing claiment Pensioners due at the end of the Summer?  Good luck and let me know how you get on.

  • ChrizyRChrizyR Member Posts: 3 Listener
    RickyMR said:
    I won my appeal and had the  enhanced daily living and enhanced mobility  reinstated.  The Case Worker for the DWP agreed with me that the Assossor had inacurately not taken into account medical evidence etc. She also had not passed a Hospital report that I had given her to the DWP. She should have scanned it and sent it with her report. I had my money backdated and was awarded until  December 2021.Hopefully the light touch review will soon apply to existing claiment Pensioners due at the end of the Summer?  Good luck and let me know how you get on.

    Thanks that is great to know!
    The problem I face is that I am only 37 and sometimes because I am younger it goes against me, it just annoys me that some of the assessors jump to all these conclusions based on spending 60 - 90 minutes with you!
    It really made me laugh when the assessor was describing my mobility in the report and started the sentence with "On the balance of probability.......", how they can predict the probability of all my mobility needs based on the 8 steps she had me walk is a total mystery to me!
    Thanks again for the reply.
  • RickyMRRickyMR Member Posts: 13 Connected
    I know. My Sister is having cancer treatment shes 64. Had breast off and 20 lymph nodes removed. Assessor visited her at home. My sister was in pyjamas because has to have someone help dress her. In assessors report said my sister was dressed smart casual and was able to stand on one leg unaided. My Sister wasnt even asked to stand up. Other lies were told. She was only awarded standard daily living. Nothing for mobility. She is appealing of course. How can these assessors be such liars. ?. Im 71 tomorrow.

  • ChrizyRChrizyR Member Posts: 3 Listener
    edited June 2019
    They are better at lying and bending the truth than politicians! 
    My assessor stated, "he showed no sign of anxiety and seemed quite happy". 
    After the assessor left my dad said I was shaking, making fists and had a foot tap all the way through the interview (so if that is not anxiety I don't know what is) and as for being "quite happy".........well before this began I had a great job, a wife, kids, nice car and a house, now I cannot work, am separated, don't live with my kids, can barely get in and out of the car and live with my parents!  Saying I am "Quite happy" is disgusting and really quite upsetting.  How do they sleep at night knowing they are ruining peoples lives (even more) by making this stuff up!
    I really hope it goes well for your sister and she wins her appeal, 70% of other claimants win at appeal so there is obviously something wrong with the system.  Good luck and happy birthday for tomorrow. (I was 37 yesterday!)
  • RickyMRRickyMR Member Posts: 13 Connected
    Thanks .Happy Birthday to you for yesterday. After my assessment i sat in my car shaking and had to pull myself together before drove home. Assessor also said i showed no sign anxiety. She didnt take into account i am 70 and live on my own and have to manage all my medical conditions on my own. 
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