Communicating - aids - PIP - OCD

[Deleted User]

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poppy123456

DLA and PIP are different and case law for DLA won't apply for PIP. Can you give some more information, what do you use your phone for?

[Deleted User]

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poppy123456

Activity 7 communicating verbally.

This activity considers a claimant’s ability to communicate verbally with regard to expressive (conveying) communication and receptive (receiving and understanding) communication in one’s native language. This means if you can understand what is being said to you then you won't score any points in this descriptor.

poppy123456

I'm tending to agree with what others have said in your previous posts. It seems like you're trying to fit yourself into these descriptors. You really should concentrate on the descriptors that apply, rather than try to fit yourself into them.

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poppy123456

I'm not sure why CAB advised you this. Activity 7 communicating verbally is about your ability to to understand what is being said to you and what you say to others. If you can understand others and them you then you won't score points for this activity. Please read the link regarding this activity here.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria#daily-living-activities

cristobal

I’m reluctant to disagree with the advice given by CAB but I’m still with @poppy123456 and @wilko on this - both must score 0 points. Hand washing because there’s no descriptor for it (and you can wash your hands anyway), and communicating verbally because you clearly can communicate (by using the ‘phone)

It still seems to me (and others) that you seem to be intent on ‘bending’ the descriptors in a manner which will score points. This is not the way to do it and will easily be found out at an assessment. 

Could you not use your time more fruitfully by looking at those descriptors which are more likely to apply - you mention that you have difficulty going out, for example?

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cristobal

@zinty ...I'm a claimant. I hoped that I might be able to use my experience (good and bad) to help others not make some of the mistakes that I did...

Yadnad

poppy123456 said:

I'm tending to agree with what others have said in your previous posts. It seems like you're trying to fit yourself into these descriptors. You really should concentrate on the descriptors that apply, rather than try to fit yourself into them.

Good point Poppy, I fear that this situation is not uncommon amongst some claimants.

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Pipquestions2

poppy123456 said:

I'm not sure why CAB advised you this. Activity 7 communicating verbally is about your ability to to understand what is being said to you and what you say to others. If you can understand others and them you then you won't score points for this activity. Please read the link regarding this activity here.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria#daily-living-activities

This activity considers a claimant’s ability to communicate verbally with regard to expressive (conveying) communication and receptive (receiving and understanding) communication in one’s native language.

From your own link, so the expressive parts relates to having trouble expressing communication (like OP has), even though he understands it(receptive part), he has trouble actually getting the words out etc because of his disability so he should qualify for this should he not?

It's very easily to understand what you're being told / saying, while still having communication problems. For example due to my social anxiety (Suspected aspergers but failed the test many times..) I struggle massively with communication in person and can't use a phone at all, I've been forced to write things down to my own Dr for example because I'd struggle with getting the words out, despite understanding what I'm trying to say. However I do understand the words, sentence and context of it. I just can't really get the words out and don't know 'how' to speak at times.

poppy123456

No, it's based purely on you being able to understand what is being said to you and what you say to others. What you describe is for activity 9 engaging with others face to face. Two totally different descriptors that mean to totally different things.

poppy123456

zinty said:

  What a hostile forum this is.

I'm sorry you feel this way.

You have been given a lot of good advice by several different people, trying to explain to you what the descriptors mean. What you described above applies to activity 9 engaging with others not activity 7. If you can understand what people are saying to you and they can understand what you say to them then you won't score any points in activity 7.

I also claim PIP and ESA.

Pipquestions2

poppy123456 said:

No, it's based purely on you being able to understand what is being said to you and what you say to others. What you describe is for activity 9 engaging with others face to face. Two totally different descriptors that mean to totally different things.

It's under section 7 though? The very first paragraph actually.

poppy123456

No, sorry it's still also all about understand language and they're 2 totally different descriptors.

poppy123456

Basic verbal information is information conveyed in a simple sentence: “Can I help you?”, “I would like tea please”, “I came home today”, “The time is 3 o’clock”.

Complex verbal information is information conveyed in either more than one sentence or one complicated sentence, for example: “I would like tea please, just a splash of milk and no sugar, as I always have sweeteners with me for when I go out”.

Verbal information can include information that is interpreted from verbal into non-verbal form or vice-versa – for example, speech interpreted through sign language.

Communication support means support from another person trained or experienced in communicating with people with specific communication needs (for example, a sign language interpreter); or someone directly experienced in communicating with the claimant themselves (for example, a family member or carer).

Individuals who cannot express or understand verbal information and would need communication support to do so should receive the appropriate descriptor even if they do not have access to this support. For example, a deaf person who cannot communicate verbally and does not use sign language might need communication support to support them in another way even if they do not routinely have such help.

Lip reading is not considered an acceptable way to interpret verbal communication.

Note: The ability to remember and retain information is not within the scope of this activity e.g. relevant to those with dementia or learning disabilities.

Taken from this link.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria#daily-living-activities

Pipquestions2

poppy123456 said:

No, sorry it's still also all about understand language and they're 2 totally different descriptors.

How can you say that when the gov website specifically says it can be about expressing and also understanding?

Either you're wrong, or the government website is wrong, and if it's the government website you could make a case for it regardless based off that, until they correct it. But given how many times these types of things are proof read to ensure things like this don't actually happen, and how many times it's repeated in one way or another that having trouble to express/verbally communicate is mentioned I'm inclined to believe problems expressing also gains you points for 7 and you're getting mixed up somewhere.

Section 7 states " If the claimant couldn’t make themselves understood and had to resort to hand gestures and writing notes this would not be to an acceptable standard."

"Individuals who cannot express or understand verbal information and would need communication support to do so should receive the appropriate descriptor even if they do not have access to this support"

- not being able to express verbally should also count as making themselves understood - because you can't understand silence/mutism. If I walk into my Doctors for example and can't get the words out, I'm not making myself understood and she won't be able to help me. If you cannot communicate properly that means you either need to write it down, or have someone help you, this would come under the examples they give as not to an acceptable standard.

Under section 9, it doesn't even actually say anything about expressing verbally. That part actually seems more directed to the understanding and how you react around people.

"This part, exclusively,clearly listed and repeated multiple times under section 7, does not apply to section 7 and is not took into consideration when awarding points for this section." You don't see how that sounds absolutely ridiculous?

Yadnad

Why does this all matter? Why worry what the 'hidden' meanings behind a descriptor are.
Just explain what you have difficulties with and then let the DWP worry about whether they fit or not.
Grief, I am also confused as to what the descriptors could mean but why bother - you are not the one making the decisions.

I explained in my words what my difficulties are, then I looked at the descriptors and thought - yes I could fall into that one. However the assessor and the DWP didn't agree. I won my first two appeals at MR stage based entirely on written evidence from reputable medical sources that (a) I could not physically walk more than 20 metres - as tested in hospital) (b) the aids I had were needed and not a question of choice plus a couple of other provable issues.

I did not try to work out if what my problems were could be shoe horned into a descriptor - a claimant is not asked or expected to do that. 

cristobal

Maybe you're right @Yadnad?

Put your inability to walk 20 metres in the box for managing medication - that way you're bound to get at least some points for "unable to understand verbal information" !!

Pipquestions2

Yadnad said:

Why does this all matter? Why worry what the 'hidden' meanings behind a descriptor are.
Just explain what you have difficulties with and then let the DWP worry about whether they fit or not.
Grief, I am also confused as to what the descriptors could mean but why bother - you are not the one making the decisions.

I explained in my words what my difficulties are, then I looked at the descriptors and thought - yes I could fall into that one. However the assessor and the DWP didn't agree. I won my first two appeals at MR stage based entirely on written evidence from reputable medical sources that (a) I could not physically walk more than 20 metres - as tested in hospital) (b) the aids I had were needed and not a question of choice plus a couple of other provable issues.

I did not try to work out if what my problems were could be shoe horned into a descriptor - a claimant is not asked or expected to do that. 

I agree, was just pointing out that Poppy was saying one thing but the link that was given says something completely different. It's also quite relevant to me aswell so I'd like to be 'informed' I guess.

would also like to point out that CA recommends you ticking yes if you have trouble communicating with people, have family that fills in gaps in conversations, etc. This suggests to me that while you may be able to speak and understand what's being said, if you have trouble with having full conversations etc, then you should be ticking yes and fighting for points here. CA Also mentions that if it makes you anxious this should be mentioned in Mixing with others, it doesn't say you should mention there also that you have trouble communicating - but rather only if it causes you to be anxious etc.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/help-with-your-claim/fill-in-form/9-communicating-verbally/

For my MR I just wrote about my communication problems, gave evidence of my GP suspecting aspergers and also wrote that my psychiatrist/CPN also suspected it and mentioned their names. I doubt they will contact them but who knows. Mentioned that the assessor lied in a throwaway comment & I shut down and had to have my mum answer 2 questions for me at the assessment and was too busy trying to calm myself down that I got distracted and wasn't listening to him for one question. Also mentioned that when I can't answer things and they push for answers & don't accept it from my mum (like at my most recent ESA assessment), I panic and storm out the room & locked myself in another office for 20 minutes. Didn't mention having to write stuff down at my Doctors a lot, in hindsight after reading that I probably should have but oh well I think I've put forward a decent case...  Mentioned this under the mixing with others aswell as it's relevant to both (IMO). I originally scored 0 points and I'm awaiting the MR result.

Perhaps I don't deserve to get points & poppy is right as I suppose there's nothing really physically forcible 'stopping' me from saying those words and in an empty room I could, but when it comes to face to face situations I just can't (not really sure how to explain this) so an argument could be made here. But based off that link Poppy posted it sounds like situations like mine (and maybe OP's) should be recieving some points for this descriptor and it isn't strictly down to understanding the words being said or spoken.

cristobal said:

Maybe you're right @Yadnad?

Put your inability to walk 20 metres in the box for managing medication - that way you're bound to get at least some points for "unable to understand verbal information" !!

that's written information though not verbal..that would come under activity 8 :P

Yadnad

cristobal said:

Maybe you're right @Yadnad?

Put your inability to walk 20 metres in the box for managing medication - that way you're bound to get at least some points for "unable to understand verbal information" !!

Never thought of that. Mess the form up which shows that you don't understand a damn thing!:*

Yadnad

Pipquestions2 said:

would also like to point out that CA recommends you ticking yes if you have trouble communicating with people, have family that fills in gaps in conversations, etc. This suggests to me that while you may be able to speak and understand what's being said, if you have trouble with having full conversations etc, then you should be ticking yes and fighting for points here. CA Also mentions that if it makes you anxious this should be mentioned in Mixing with others, it doesn't say you should mention there also that you have trouble communicating - but rather only if it causes you to be anxious etc.

Well if I went to the 'nth' degree and took everything I do and don't do I would be writing  War & Peace in every box + the section for more info on the PIP2!
I have a diagnosis and have been tested for Dementia and brain function. Those tests revealed early onset Vascular Dementia as well as Frontal Lobe damage - altered personality.
Of course I too find it difficult sometimes to find the right words whilst giving a speech in the Council Chamber, yes some things I say don't make much sense hence why I always write out what I intend to talk about. It doesn't mean to say that I am mentally disabled to the extent of qualifying for PIP. In fact following the first claim I made in 2013, I did write everything down on the PIP2 only to have the assessor and the DWP decide that the 14 reasons they came up with that I don't have any mental issues was nearer to the truth. For assessment numbers 2 and 3 I didn't bother to mention anything related to mental health issues.
My way of looking at it is to concentrate on what I can prove on the balance of probabilities and not what I can't prove.

Yadnad

ilovecats said:

Poppy is completely correct. 


If you have the ability to communicate but cannot due to a mental health issue then it applies only to Activity 9 - Engaging.

"Not being able to express verbally" in the context of Activity 7 applies to people who may have severe speech impediments as a result of things like stroke, oral surgery, deformities etc and for people who have cognitive issues or sensory issues e.g. hearing impaired people who require an interpreter or family member

Thanks. Yes 9 is about engaging. Yes I have a mental health problem and yes I do find it difficult to engage expressively. But I have spent years trying to over come that problem but it still persists today to some extent. The problem that I have is that on the face of it I should qualify under 9 but put it into the bigger picture it is something that I will never be able to prove as one of my voluntary positions is that I am a Councillor and chairman of the board of directors of a large charity. Speaking at a council meeting does not fit with claiming under 9. 


As for 7, I am deaf in both ears and have to wear hearing aids. Those aids help as they avoid the need for someone to sign for me. Hence that section does not apply to me either as I have help (aids). However the use of those aids did not count for any points as in my second assessment (2015) I only had one in as I had run out of batteries! I had to prove via the NHS battery book later that I have two aids therefore 2 points.

poppy123456

ilovecats said:

Pipquestions2 said:

- not being able to express verbally should also count as making themselves understood - because you can't understand silence/mutism. If I walk into my Doctors for example and can't get the words out, I'm not making myself understood and she won't be able to help me. If you cannot communicate properly that means you either need to write it down, or have someone help you, this would come under the examples they give as not to an acceptable standard.

Poppy is completely correct. 

Unfortunately selective mutism is not considered under the scope of Activity 7, only under Activity 9. 

If you have the ability to communicate but cannot due to a mental health issue then it applies only to Activity 9 - Engaging.

"Not being able to express verbally" in the context of Activity 7 applies to people who may have severe speech impediments as a result of things like stroke, oral surgery, deformities etc and for people who have cognitive issues or sensory issues e.g. hearing impaired people who require an interpreter or family member. 

Thanks very much for confirming that i was in fact correct. I was hoping you or someone with knowledge would see this and confirm that i'm correct. Much appreciated.

Yadnad

ilovecats said:

Yadnad said:

As for 7, I am deaf in both ears and have to wear hearing aids. Those aids help as they avoid the need for someone to sign for me. Hence that section does not apply to me either as I have help (aids). However the use of those aids did not count for any points as in my second assessment (2015) I only had one in as I had run out of batteries! I had to prove via the NHS battery book later that I have two aids therefore 2 points.

2 hearing aids = 2 points. Frustrating that you had to prove it but unfortunately with these items being readily available there are a select few who abuse this. 

Oh I agree entirely. Even two can be bought on ebay for £20!!
And don't get me onto ebay wheelchairs and crutches - I know quite a few 'disabled' claimants that would swear blind that they need them only to find that after the decision to award has been made they end up back on ebay!

Pipquestions2

poppy123456 said:

ilovecats said:

Pipquestions2 said:

- not being able to express verbally should also count as making themselves understood - because you can't understand silence/mutism. If I walk into my Doctors for example and can't get the words out, I'm not making myself understood and she won't be able to help me. If you cannot communicate properly that means you either need to write it down, or have someone help you, this would come under the examples they give as not to an acceptable standard.

Poppy is completely correct. 

Unfortunately selective mutism is not considered under the scope of Activity 7, only under Activity 9. 

If you have the ability to communicate but cannot due to a mental health issue then it applies only to Activity 9 - Engaging.

"Not being able to express verbally" in the context of Activity 7 applies to people who may have severe speech impediments as a result of things like stroke, oral surgery, deformities etc and for people who have cognitive issues or sensory issues e.g. hearing impaired people who require an interpreter or family member. 

Thanks very much for confirming that i was in fact correct. I was hoping you or someone with knowledge would see this and confirm that i'm correct. Much appreciated.

Who is I love cats ?

Just curious as you said "someone with knowledge"?

poppy123456

Most likely someone like myself, who also claims PIP but understands the descriptors and what they mean. Other than that i have no idea.

Yadnad

Do we have an ex DWP PIP case manager amongst us??

Yadnad

ilovecats said:

Yadnad said:

Do we have an ex DWP PIP case manager amongst us??

Definitely not a case manager. I used to work for Captia, now I'm back in the NHS.

Ah yes I see the connection.

Capita has many tentacles that reach out into many organisations. They don't have such a good reputation in dealing with Civil Servants pay and certainly not their pensions!!

djbantiques

The problem with a forum is there are too many "experts" ready to offer "advice".

Best bet is try and find a genuine face to face consultation. Even then some of the information is dubious.

Yadnad

djbantiques said:

The problem with a forum is there are too many "experts" ready to offer "advice".

Best bet is try and find a genuine face to face consultation. Even then some of the information is dubious.

In which case we should all pack up and do something different?

poppy123456

djbantiques said:

The problem with a forum is there are too many "experts" ready to offer "advice".

Best bet is try and find a genuine face to face consultation. Even then some of the information is dubious.

If those so called "experts" didn't know what the descriptors mean then they wouldn't offer the advice in the first place.

djbantiques

poppy123456 said:

djbantiques said:

The problem with a forum is there are too many "experts" ready to offer "advice".

Best bet is try and find a genuine face to face consultation. Even then some of the information is dubious.

If those so called "experts" didn't know what the descriptors mean then they wouldn't offer the advice in the first place.

Have a read through and you will see they do.

djbantiques

Yadnad said:

djbantiques said:

The problem with a forum is there are too many "experts" ready to offer "advice".

Best bet is try and find a genuine face to face consultation. Even then some of the information is dubious.

In which case we should all pack up and do something different?

Not at all. The support offered on such forums can be invaluable, as is the case on many posts on here.

Yadnad

The problem with a forum is there are too many "experts" ready to offer "advice".

Best bet is try and find a genuine face to face consultation. Even then some of the information is dubious...……………….Not at all. The support offered on such forums can be invaluable, as is the case on many posts on here.

????? Confused

poppy123456

Yadnad said:

The problem with a forum is there are too many "experts" ready to offer "advice".

Best bet is try and find a genuine face to face consultation. Even then some of the information is dubious...……………….Not at all. The support offered on such forums can be invaluable, as is the case on many posts on here.

????? Confused

Yes indeed, my thoughts exactly but i forgot to reply and quote. Thanks for that.

djbantiques

Yadnad said:

The problem with a forum is there are too many "experts" ready to offer "advice".

Best bet is try and find a genuine face to face consultation. Even then some of the information is dubious...……………….Not at all. The support offered on such forums can be invaluable, as is the case on many posts on here.

????? Confused

Support and advice are two totally different things.
Advice is best taken face to face where you can check out the credentials of the advisor and confirm they are qualified to give that advice.
Support could be anything from anyone, anywhere.

Bungalow

Sorry I agree with Zinty ,, I haven't been long on this site and I do find it hostile sometimes with people arguing over petty things .
 I have been lurking in the back ground as some peeps have said and watched and listened. Probably there are a few assessors on here and don't like what is being said which is probably true. Instead of being  helpful it appears about point scoring on peoples opinions?
 I wont divulge what my background is, my working career I could make certain comments but I refrain from doing so in case I offend . It is not about being right!!!! it is about supporting people who do not understand the system and how you come across and frankly i find this shortcoming sometimes especially with regular users.