PIP, DLA and AA
If this is your first visit, check out the community guide. You will have to Join us or Sign in before you can post.

PIP i need some advice please

scape03scape03 Member Posts: 29 Courageous
edited March 2019 in PIP, DLA and AA
Hi, this is my first post and would like some advice please. I have received my report and only have 6 points for daily living. Whilst some of the report is reasonable the HP admitted they had no knowledge of my health condition, yet based their opinion on it. There are some factual errors and misconceptions about what I said. Whilst I don't want to focus on the inaccuracies, I feel that it is important that what they recorded as my answers are not correct. I am intending to write a supporting statement and was thinking of setting it out with the HP's quotes for each descriptor I disagree with, followed by what I actually said about the impact of my illness. I don't want to come across as combative, what do people think? I was also thinking of linking the relevant Assessment Guidance Criteria to each descriptor, but again I am thinking it could be inflammatory. Also, I am sure that I read on here somewhere, that it is a good idea to either verbalize this or send the letter into the CM before the 'official' decision is made. I would love to get people's opinion. Thanks

Replies

  • scape03scape03 Member Posts: 29 Courageous
    Sorry, I forgot to say that this is my first claim for PIP.
  • scape03scape03 Member Posts: 29 Courageous
    Was just wondering if anyone had any answers to my questions. Thank you!
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    Answered on your other thread
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • Adrian_ScopeAdrian_Scope Testing team Posts: 7,954

    Scope community team

    Hi @scape03, welcome to the community and thanks for your question. I've asked @BenefitsTrainingCo to have a look at this for you.
    Senior Community Partner
    Scope

    Your feedback is really important to the development of the online community, so please remember to complete our online community annual survey
  • scape03scape03 Member Posts: 29 Courageous
    Sorry, @CockneyRebel, just new to this and didn't realise I had another thread? Know this sounds a bit stupid, but where is it?
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    No problem we all started somewhere
    Click on " my discussions " on the right of the screen
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    The DWP and if necessary the tribunal will not be interested in the inaccuracies and / errors of the report.
    You should concentrate on showing that you meet the criteria for each applicable descriptor. Give 2-3 examples of what happened last time you attempted that activity.
    If you are unhappy with the report or the HCP, a separate complaint should be made to the assessment provider.
    In some cases it is possible to ask for a call back from a case manager to discuss your concerns
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • scape03scape03 Member Posts: 29 Courageous
    Thank you, do you think I should leave out the statements from HP and just write what I said (which basically explains why I can't complete that activity) or just ignore the report completely? Secondly do you think it's wise to refer to the Assessment Criteria Guidance?
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    In my opinion you should keep any appeal whether MR or tribunal as simple as possible. If you have any further evidence then you should included it.
    I don't see the need to refer to the Assessment criteria, they should know it as well or better than you.
    There is little to gain from refering  to the HCP statements as long as you explain as fully as possible the reasons why you fit each descriptor
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • scape03scape03 Member Posts: 29 Courageous
    Thanks, I haven't had the decision yet so it will be MR if the CM     goes with the report. I was hoping to avoid that by speaking to the CM first.
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    scape03 said:
    Thanks, I haven't had the decision yet so it will be MR if the CM     goes with the report. I was hoping to avoid that by speaking to the CM first.
    You have nothing to lose by trying
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • BenefitsTrainingCoBenefitsTrainingCo Member Posts: 2,692 Pioneering

    Hi @scape03 People approach a request for a reconsideration in different ways.  There is no harm highlighting the relevant parts of the assessment guide, but do remember this is only guidance.  It is useful to set out in writing which descriptors you think you meet and why, and you could also include a statement that the evidence you gave at assessment was not properly recorded and then state what you actually said - only do this in relation to addressing each of the relevant descriptors and I would not waste time highlighting inaccuracies which are incidental to the points scoring.  I would also suggest that you provide medical evidence from health professionals who know you (avoid sending in generic information about your diagnosis/condition) and if possible ask your health professionals to directly comment on your difficulties undertaking the  PIP descriptors which are relevant to you.

    With best wishes

    Sarah

    The Benefits Training Co:
    Paul Bradley
    Michael Chambers
    Will Hadwen
    Sarah Hayle
    Maria Solomon
    David Stickland
  • scape03scape03 Member Posts: 29 Courageous
    Thank you, that makes sense. In relation to speaking to CM, I have just phoned DWP and the person I spoke to refused to put me through to a CM, saying it was a waste of time, I'd just have to wait for their decision. So seems this method doesn't work!
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    I rang DWP a few weeks ago to speak to a CM about my daughters PIP, not for the award recommendation but something else. I was put straight through without any problems at all. The woman i spoke to was very nice. They can't refuse you call back from a CM. It may not help at this stage but it's always worth a try.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    Often you will not be transfered to a CM but you can ask for a call back. A call centre operator should not offer an opinion as to whether it is a waste of time
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • scape03scape03 Member Posts: 29 Courageous
    Thanks @poppy123456, each time I have phoned up in the past, even for ESA (albeit it being a different department) the people I have spoken to have been lovely and really tried to help me. This woman, for some reason, was very surly - she just sounded bored! I might try again later, I could get someone different. You're right @CockneyRebel, I don't think it was her decision to make as I had actually said I would expect no-one to be available at that time and would be happy if someone could ring me.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    I was lucky to be put straight through to the CM when i rang but i wasn't expecting that. You should ring back and don't let them treat you that way.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • scape03scape03 Member Posts: 29 Courageous
    Thanks! I am normally quite assertive if I need to be, but all of this is completely new to me - I've worked all life and have no clue about what protocols are! I'll try and ring back now.
  • scape03scape03 Member Posts: 29 Courageous
    Received My Official Decision

    As expected, I received my official decision where the CM has gone with assessment. In a way, I feel as though it's my fault as, having since read this forum, I realise how naive I was in not understanding the amount of detail I had to give. However, in my defence, the HP did not record the information which I did give, that should have earned me some points. 

    My dilemma now is still how to approach the MR. I have just been reading a thread with a discussion about new evidence at a MR, where it was stated you can't give new evidence. @poppy123456 refuted this and, logically in my opinion, said you can. As I've already stated earlier I don't want to be combative and say the HP did not record what I said accurately, as I've read advice many times saying not to do this as DWP aren't interested in inaccuracies etc by HP.

    However, surely if I were to address each descriptor I disagree with (only 3 to be fair - she totally focussed on mobility, which I knew I wasn't eligible for anyway), by saying 'this is the information I gave the HP ......... ', that should be viewed as new or possibly extra ?? evidence.

    I would appreciate any thoughts or opinions.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Yes, you can indeed send new evidence to the Tribunal providing it states how your condition affected you at the time of the decision. Any worsening of condition won't be taken into consideration.


    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • scape03scape03 Member Posts: 29 Courageous
    Thanks @poppy123456. Does that mean it would be ok to state that the evidence I am writing, is  the correct information that I gave to the HP during my assessment - not what she wrote down.
  • scape03scape03 Member Posts: 29 Courageous
    Sorry, forgot to say that will be the only evidence, I will not be giving further medical evidence as everything I sent in with my claim was up to date.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    What do you mean the evidence that you are writing? Are you planning on writing a diary? If so was the diary done before the decision was made?
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • scape03scape03 Member Posts: 29 Courageous
    No, I was planning addressing each descriptor I don't agree with and writing exactly what I told the HP at the time of the assessment, as she didn't write all of this evidence down. For example, she mixed up what I said I could do and what my husband had to do for me. 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Yes, you can do that but bare in mind that the Tribunal won't appreciate you mentioning any lies that may have been told in the report. If it was me, i'd concentrate on the descriptors that i think apply, my reasons why and add 2-3 examples of what happened the last time i attempted that activity for each descriptor that applies.


    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • scape03scape03 Member Posts: 29 Courageous
    I absolutely agree with you @poppy123456 about mentioning lies etc, particularly as she didn't tell any lies as such. Sorry for keep going on, but what I'm really getting at is, when I write my reasons of why I think each descriptor applies do I say that this is what I actually said at the assessment but just wasn't recorded? 

    At the assessment, which was at home, she kept pressing on yes/no questions as well as mobility (which I knew I wouldn't get) and wasn't really taking in my explanations of daily care. I'm just concerned that the case manager will just think I've just added this info because I haven't scored enough points.
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    The HCP is there to give their opinion based on observation and corroborated by relevant evidence. It does become a snap shot of your life based on an hour or so. They are not there to write down every word you say.

    As poppy says, concentrate on showing how you meet the descriptors, reference your reasons to the evidence you have submitted and give examples of what happens when you attempt that activity. Try to paint a picture of your life over a week or month
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    They won't be interested at all in what you actually said during the assessment.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • scape03scape03 Member Posts: 29 Courageous
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    @poppy123456 and @cockneyrebel....I don't disagree with you and would also advise concentrating on evidencing the descriptors, and not what the assessor did or did not do.

    For the record however the DWP's own guidelines seem to be clear that the assessor should record what the claimant says and, if they disagree, then they should say so and not 'edit' the claimants answer to suit themselves. 

    “The HP (assessor) must document the symptoms and history of the condition as described by the claimant. Although the HP may consider that the claimant’s view of the impact of their condition is unrealistic or inconsistent with other evidence, the place to address this is later in the report, when justifying their advice”

    “The functional history is the claimant's own perspective on how they manage the daily living and mobility activities. It is not the HP’s opinion of what the claimant should be able to do. It should be recorded in the third person, and should make it clear that this is the claimant's story.”

  • scape03scape03 Member Posts: 29 Courageous
    Thanks @cristobal, I will read through report and descriptors very carefully again before I put MR in. Fingers crossed!
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    scape03 said:
    Thanks @cristobal, I will read through report and descriptors very carefully again before I put MR in. Fingers crossed!
    @scope03.. I think that would be wise. I think the trap that many, including myself, fall into is to assume that they know what the descriptors mean when in fact they don't. 'Cooking' not including using an oven and 'Bathing' not including drying oneself are two that immediately spring to mind...
  • scape03scape03 Member Posts: 29 Courageous
    Absolutely! @ilovecats. However, I do feel that my medical evidence backs me up, both my consultant and occupational health doctor (I was retired on ill-health) said in their report how my health conditions affect me, which should, in turn, validate what I have said. They have also explained that everything medically has been tried, to no avail.
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    cristobal said:
    @poppy123456 and @cockneyrebel....I don't disagree with you and would also advise concentrating on evidencing the descriptors, and not what the assessor did or did not do.

    For the record however the DWP's own guidelines seem to be clear that the assessor should record what the claimant says and, if they disagree, then they should say so and not 'edit' the claimants answer to suit themselves. 

    “The HP (assessor) must document the symptoms and history of the condition as described by the claimant. Although the HP may consider that the claimant’s view of the impact of their condition is unrealistic or inconsistent with other evidence, the place to address this is later in the report, when justifying their advice”

    “The functional history is the claimant's own perspective on how they manage the daily living and mobility activities. It is not the HP’s opinion of what the claimant should be able to do. It should be recorded in the third person, and should make it clear that this is the claimant's story.”



    I have yet to find any civil servant or their agents to actually follow the guidance notes verbatim. 

    The temptation both to save time and give an opinion in the shortest possible time is to not write out word for word what the claimant says. To listen and make a judgement call is all that is needed without listening to 30mins of the hows, whys and whatfors as told by the claimant. 
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    @ilovecats ...I'm not sure whether the guidance means to record the response verbatim, or whether an accurate summary would suffice as long as the meaning and context remains unchanged. In my particular case it seemed that the HP had a drop down list of answers and had to try and pick the best one so the guidelines were ignored right from the start i.e.my answer had to match one in the list. (to be clear I'm not blaming the assessor if that's what she was told to do)

    Maybe it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. All I can say is that in my case I would have been perfectly OK if the HP had recorded my answers - verbatim or otherwise - and then said that she disagreed, or that I was lying, and justified her decision, instead of the way it was done.

    (disclaimer - I just wanted everyone to be clear how the guidance says assessments should be done - I'm not having a pop at the assessors if they are not trained to do this in practice as that's not fair)
  • scape03scape03 Member Posts: 29 Courageous
    @ilovecats, it would be interesting to know how my HP completed the report of my physical exam. I was asked to touch my shins, rotate my hands and ankles, move head and reach behind my back (some of which I couldn't do). Although I have no real complaints about my HP, apart from her neglecting to record help I needed that should have definitely moved points from 6 to 8, I was amazed to see a whole side of A4 to record this exam. It included rotational measurements in degrees and technical medical jargon that could have justified a half hour medical examination and assessment, not 30 seconds of small movements.
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    @ilovecats - thanks for your reply @ 0755 ...very illuminating...
  • scape03scape03 Member Posts: 29 Courageous
    Thanks for that @ilovecats, really great to have people like yourself, as well as others in same position as me, who give great advice! Much appreciated!
  • WaylayWaylay Member Posts: 922 Pioneering
    Hey @ilovecats Any ideas what prepopulated mental state exam fields might read as?
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    ilovecats said:
    It will look something like this: 

    Normal facial expression. Interaction normal, was not restless or withdrawn. Coped well at interview. Did not appear anxious, agitated or tense. Adequate rapport /eye contact.

    Does not look tired. Average build and appeared sufficiently nourished. Well kempt. Casually dressed. Looks well. No trembling. Increased sweating was not seen. Normal complexion.

    Speech was normal in content, rate, tone and volume.

    Behaved normally, did not become hostile, or withdrawn. 

    Had adequate insight into their illness.

    No evidence of cognitive abnormality, was alert and orientated through the entire assessment, answered questions accurately. Did not need prompting, had sufficient general memory and adequate concentration.
    And all of that is as a result of a mental state examination? 

    So why on earth does the NHS need to employ psychiatrists and psychologists who do the same thing? Surely someone should have realised by now that the NHS budget for mental health is far overstated?

    Additionally if it only takes 5/10mins to carry out that in-depth assessment of someone's mental state why have I had to have years of treatment resulting in 15 years later having to have more tests to actually determine and decide if my mental health problems are real or imaginary?
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    ilovecats said:

    @Yadnad is that you? 😉

    My thoughts exactly :D
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
Sign in or join us to comment.