PIP i need some advice please

scape03

Thanks @poppy123456. Does that mean it would be ok to state that the evidence I am writing, is  the correct information that I gave to the HP during my assessment - not what she wrote down.

scape03

Sorry, forgot to say that will be the only evidence, I will not be giving further medical evidence as everything I sent in with my claim was up to date.

poppy123456

What do you mean the evidence that you are writing? Are you planning on writing a diary? If so was the diary done before the decision was made?

scape03

No, I was planning addressing each descriptor I don't agree with and writing exactly what I told the HP at the time of the assessment, as she didn't write all of this evidence down. For example, she mixed up what I said I could do and what my husband had to do for me. 

poppy123456

Yes, you can do that but bare in mind that the Tribunal won't appreciate you mentioning any lies that may have been told in the report. If it was me, i'd concentrate on the descriptors that i think apply, my reasons why and add 2-3 examples of what happened the last time i attempted that activity for each descriptor that applies.

This link may help you understand the descriptors more. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers

scape03

I absolutely agree with you @poppy123456 about mentioning lies etc, particularly as she didn't tell any lies as such. Sorry for keep going on, but what I'm really getting at is, when I write my reasons of why I think each descriptor applies do I say that this is what I actually said at the assessment but just wasn't recorded? 

At the assessment, which was at home, she kept pressing on yes/no questions as well as mobility (which I knew I wouldn't get) and wasn't really taking in my explanations of daily care. I'm just concerned that the case manager will just think I've just added this info because I haven't scored enough points.

CockneyRebel

The HCP is there to give their opinion based on observation and corroborated by relevant evidence. It does become a snap shot of your life based on an hour or so. They are not there to write down every word you say.

As poppy says, concentrate on showing how you meet the descriptors, reference your reasons to the evidence you have submitted and give examples of what happens when you attempt that activity. Try to paint a picture of your life over a week or month

poppy123456

They won't be interested at all in what you actually said during the assessment.

scape03

Thank you @CockneyRebel and @poppy123456

cristobal

@poppy123456 and @cockneyrebel....I don't disagree with you and would also advise concentrating on evidencing the descriptors, and not what the assessor did or did not do.

For the record however the DWP's own guidelines seem to be clear that the assessor should record what the claimant says and, if they disagree, then they should say so and not 'edit' the claimants answer to suit themselves. 

“The HP (assessor) must document the symptoms and history of the condition as described by the claimant. Although the HP may consider that the claimant’s view of the impact of their condition is unrealistic or inconsistent with other evidence, the place to address this is later in the report, when justifying their advice”

“The functional history is the claimant's own perspective on how they manage the daily living and mobility activities. It is not the HP’s opinion of what the claimant should be able to do. It should be recorded in the third person, and should make it clear that this is the claimant's story.”

scape03

Thanks @cristobal, I will read through report and descriptors very carefully again before I put MR in. Fingers crossed!

cristobal

scape03 said:

Thanks @cristobal, I will read through report and descriptors very carefully again before I put MR in. Fingers crossed!

@scope03.. I think that would be wise. I think the trap that many, including myself, fall into is to assume that they know what the descriptors mean when in fact they don't. 'Cooking' not including using an oven and 'Bathing' not including drying oneself are two that immediately spring to mind...

scape03

Absolutely! @ilovecats. However, I do feel that my medical evidence backs me up, both my consultant and occupational health doctor (I was retired on ill-health) said in their report how my health conditions affect me, which should, in turn, validate what I have said. They have also explained that everything medically has been tried, to no avail.

twonker

cristobal said:

@poppy123456 and @cockneyrebel....I don't disagree with you and would also advise concentrating on evidencing the descriptors, and not what the assessor did or did not do.

For the record however the DWP's own guidelines seem to be clear that the assessor should record what the claimant says and, if they disagree, then they should say so and not 'edit' the claimants answer to suit themselves. 

“The HP (assessor) must document the symptoms and history of the condition as described by the claimant. Although the HP may consider that the claimant’s view of the impact of their condition is unrealistic or inconsistent with other evidence, the place to address this is later in the report, when justifying their advice”

“The functional history is the claimant's own perspective on how they manage the daily living and mobility activities. It is not the HP’s opinion of what the claimant should be able to do. It should be recorded in the third person, and should make it clear that this is the claimant's story.”

I have yet to find any civil servant or their agents to actually follow the guidance notes verbatim. 

The temptation both to save time and give an opinion in the shortest possible time is to not write out word for word what the claimant says. To listen and make a judgement call is all that is needed without listening to 30mins of the hows, whys and whatfors as told by the claimant. 

cristobal

@ilovecats ...I'm not sure whether the guidance means to record the response verbatim, or whether an accurate summary would suffice as long as the meaning and context remains unchanged. In my particular case it seemed that the HP had a drop down list of answers and had to try and pick the best one so the guidelines were ignored right from the start i.e.my answer had to match one in the list. (to be clear I'm not blaming the assessor if that's what she was told to do)

Maybe it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. All I can say is that in my case I would have been perfectly OK if the HP had recorded my answers - verbatim or otherwise - and then said that she disagreed, or that I was lying, and justified her decision, instead of the way it was done.

(disclaimer - I just wanted everyone to be clear how the guidance says assessments should be done - I'm not having a pop at the assessors if they are not trained to do this in practice as that's not fair)

scape03

@ilovecats, it would be interesting to know how my HP completed the report of my physical exam. I was asked to touch my shins, rotate my hands and ankles, move head and reach behind my back (some of which I couldn't do). Although I have no real complaints about my HP, apart from her neglecting to record help I needed that should have definitely moved points from 6 to 8, I was amazed to see a whole side of A4 to record this exam. It included rotational measurements in degrees and technical medical jargon that could have justified a half hour medical examination and assessment, not 30 seconds of small movements.

cristobal

@ilovecats - thanks for your reply @ 0755 ...very illuminating...

scape03

Thanks for that @ilovecats, really great to have people like yourself, as well as others in same position as me, who give great advice! Much appreciated!

Waylay

Hey @ilovecats Any ideas what prepopulated mental state exam fields might read as?

twonker

ilovecats said:

It will look something like this: 

Normal facial expression. Interaction normal, was not restless or withdrawn. Coped well at interview. Did not appear anxious, agitated or tense. Adequate rapport /eye contact.

Does not look tired. Average build and appeared sufficiently nourished. Well kempt. Casually dressed. Looks well. No trembling. Increased sweating was not seen. Normal complexion.

Speech was normal in content, rate, tone and volume.

Behaved normally, did not become hostile, or withdrawn. 

Had adequate insight into their illness.

No evidence of cognitive abnormality, was alert and orientated through the entire assessment, answered questions accurately. Did not need prompting, had sufficient general memory and adequate concentration.

And all of that is as a result of a mental state examination? 

So why on earth does the NHS need to employ psychiatrists and psychologists who do the same thing? Surely someone should have realised by now that the NHS budget for mental health is far overstated?

Additionally if it only takes 5/10mins to carry out that in-depth assessment of someone's mental state why have I had to have years of treatment resulting in 15 years later having to have more tests to actually determine and decide if my mental health problems are real or imaginary?