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Appeal and medication

ArtmuzzArtmuzz Member Posts: 43 Connected
As I have mentioned on this forum I unfairly failed my PIP assessment for the second time. I don’t really want to appeal this decision because I failed the PIP appeal miserably last time at Tribunal because the Judge based his decision on outdated medical evidence and I wasn’t taking mediation for my anxiety and panic disorder.

I am wanting advise whether I should still go ahead and appeal at Tribunal even though I am still not taking medication and refusing medication that my GP is offering me. However, unlike last time I am seekimg and currently getting alternative treatment as in CBT therapy, drama therapy and I now have a support worker helping me.

Should I still go ahead with an MR then appeal? I am frightened I will fail appeal at Tribunal again because I am still not taking any medication and refusing medication from my GP even though I am getting alternative treatment. Please advise.

Replies

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi,

    No one can tell you whether you should appeal the decision, only you can decide that.

    Lots of people claim PIP and they don't take any medication. If you do decide to appeal and you use the same evidence you previously used chances are you'll be refused again.


    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    The onus is on you to show that you meet the criteria for an award, and provide relevant evidence to back up your claim. If you can, and you can demonstrate with examples of what happens when you attempt the descriptor activities then you should ask for MR / tribunal.
    If you are unsure then you maybe best advised to seek trained advice form an agency near you. 
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • ArtmuzzArtmuzz Member Posts: 43 Connected
    edited April 2019
    Hi,

    No one can tell you whether you should appeal the decision, only you can decide that.

    Lots of people claim PIP and they don't take any medication. If you do decide to appeal and you use the same evidence you previously used chances are you'll be refused again.


    Strange how a lot of people who claim PIP don’t take any medication yet I failed the appeal at Tribunal because I don’t take any medication. It’s got me wondering.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    When i first claimed PIP for my daughter is 2017 she didn't take any medication at all and she was awarded Enhanced for both parts. PIP is awarded based on how your conditions affect your ability to carry out daily activity based on the PIP descriptors. You can have a disability but still not be entitled to PIP because if the descriptors don't apply to you, you won't score the points for an award.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    Artmuzz said:
    Hi,

    No one can tell you whether you should appeal the decision, only you can decide that.

    Lots of people claim PIP and they don't take any medication. If you do decide to appeal and you use the same evidence you previously used chances are you'll be refused again.


    Strange how a lot of people who claim PIP don’t take any medication yet I failed the appeal at Tribunal because I don’t take any medication. It’s got me wondering.
    The answer really is to explain why you do not take medication. 
  • ArtmuzzArtmuzz Member Posts: 43 Connected
    edited April 2019
    When i first claimed PIP for my daughter is 2017 she didn't take any medication at all and she was awarded Enhanced for both parts. PIP is awarded based on how your conditions affect your ability to carry out daily activity based on the PIP descriptors. You can have a disability but still not be entitled to PIP because if the descriptors don't apply to you, you won't score the points for an award.
    I explained in my PIP application form and at Tribunal during my appeal that my anxiety, depression and panic disorder affects my life considerably as I avoid social situations because it gives me great distress and anxiety and I also get the same for cooking, washing, looking after personal hygiene and going out.

    I explained I am indoors most of the time because of agoraphobia and dizziness is one of the symptoms and as a result I avoid going out due to the distress and panic attacks it causes me. However, I still failed my appeal because as I have said before the Judge based his decision not to award me PIP over outdated medical records and I am not taking medication.

    However, I not taking medication because of bad side effects so I am getting alternative therapy as in CBT therapy and drama therapy and getting help from a Support Worker.


  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 587 Listener
    I don't take any meds for mental health either and I was awarded pip previously with no problems. Meds aren't right for everyone, in my case they don't help me, plus I can't take meds anymore due to swallowing and stomach problems.

  • ArtmuzzArtmuzz Member Posts: 43 Connected
    WF2k said:
    I don't take any meds for mental health either and I was awarded pip previously with no problems. Meds aren't right for everyone, in my case they don't help me, plus I can't take meds anymore due to swallowing and stomach problems.

    Hmm. It makes me wonder if I was just unlucky with the PIP assessor and Tribunal panel I got at the appeal. :(
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Whether you're entitled to PIP depends exactly how your conditions affect you and you can't compare anyone else with yourself because we are all affected differently by these conditions. Have a read of this link (it's long) but well worth reading because it will give you a better understanding of the PIP descriptors and what they mean. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria#daily-living-activities

    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • ArtmuzzArtmuzz Member Posts: 43 Connected
    Thanks for the link of descriptors.

    However, on the CAB website I filled in what descriptors best describe my disabilities and according to the results and points I should get Enhanced Care and Standard Mobility yet it’s a different story with the DWP when I got assessed as I only got a total of 2 points for being unable to mix with people and zero points for the rest of the descriptors. Hmm.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 587 Listener
    You don't think it's because you have therapy do you? They can make assumptions from that I guess.

    Maybe get some professional advice?
  • ArtmuzzArtmuzz Member Posts: 43 Connected
    WF2k said:
    You don't think it's because you have therapy do you? They can make assumptions from that I guess.

    Maybe get some professional advice?
    I didn’t receive therapy last time I applied for PIP and I failed PIP and the appeal.

    Do you think that receiving therapy and getting help from a Support Worker will go against me when appealing? If you do think that then I’m wasting my time appealing this because all this appealing is causing me great stress and making my mental health worse.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 587 Listener
    Ahh fair enough :( 

    I have zero idea tbh! Which is why I suggested you get some professional advice.

    You could always tag mikehughescq and see if he can offer you some advice?
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Artmuzz said:

    However, on the CAB website I filled in what descriptors best describe my disabilities and according to the results and points I should get Enhanced Care and Standard Mobility yet it’s a different story with the DWP when I got assessed as I only got a total of 2 points for being unable to mix with people and zero points for the rest of the descriptors. Hmm.
    Unless you fully understand the PIP descriptors and what they mean it's very easy to over score yourself. A lot of people make this mistake and think they should have scored x amount of points when realistically they won't.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 587 Listener
    Check this site out - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria

    It explains the descriptors. My Son and I have had a look at it to see which descriptors I'd get points in. You have to be honest with yourself when doing the points (no offence).
  • ArtmuzzArtmuzz Member Posts: 43 Connected
    edited April 2019
    Thanks for the replies.

    I should of scored more points on the social anxiety descriptor mixing with other people because according to the assessment report I only scored 2 points in total which was for the descriptor needs prompting to mix with other people when in fact I cannot mix with other people even when prompted because it causes psychological distress.

    Also, I should of scored at least 4 points with washing and personal hygiene and going out. Hopefully I will get those descriptors changed to better scores at appeal. I am being honest and truthful and really I should of got at least standard reward for one of them.
  • mercedesbdmercedesbd Member Posts: 109 Courageous
    I say go for it forget what everyone else is saying because your condition isnt there’s, how it affects you only you know. Just go for it because the times you look round in 9 months time and you’ve not gotten anything thinking what if I did go you could have gone for the tribunal and possibly win. Think positive and don’t let no one convince you other wise. Receiving treatment and therapy doesn’t mean There’s nothing wrong if that’s the case I’m not entitled to a penny 
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 587 Listener
    Yeah, I'd definitely seek some proper advice/help with this. 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    WF2k said:
    Yeah, I'd definitely seek some proper advice/help with this. 
    I believe they had a representative from welfare rights for their previous PIP Tribunal and lost the Tribunal.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • mercedesbdmercedesbd Member Posts: 109 Courageous
    WF2k said:
    Yeah, I'd definitely seek some proper advice/help with this. 
    I believe they had a representative from welfare rights for their previous PIP Tribunal and lost the Tribunal.
    Poppy, Who cares what they had before ! Before and now is 2 different cases ! Not being funny every thread I’ve seen you comment on lately has been negative vibes if you don’t wanna give someone help positively not being ignorant don’t bother commenting 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    edited May 2019
    It matters a lot because using the same evidence previously used could likely see another refusal. I give a lot of people help on this forum, if you don't like my comments then please add me to your ignore list, this way you won't see my comments.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    We are here to help and support each other but not all the advice offered is what the claimant wants to hear. Positivity is all very well but wrong advice helps nobody
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 587 Listener
    I think the problem is.. the way people word things, text can be taken out of context regardless of how the person who has typed it means it, if that makes sense? People with certain mental health problems such as myself are very sensitive and anything that looks off to them can make them very anxious and then that person in some cases will react badly and will post a sharp comment back. I try not to do that personally but I don't like confrontation. I've done as the admin that emailed suggested which was to put people who cause me anxiety on ignore. I honestly suggest anyone else who is "triggered" by people on here or any other forum or social media platform do the same, it saves confliction and confrontation then. This is just my opinion as someone with significant anxiety.
  • mercedesbdmercedesbd Member Posts: 109 Courageous
    edited May 2019
    It matters a lot because using the same evidence previously used could likely see another refusal. I give a lot of people help on this forum, if you don't like my comments then please add me to your ignore list, this way you won't see my comments.
    But your on about an old case? That’s the past leave it in the past instead of encouraging someone to get what there entitled to feels like to me ur just trying to put them of like you do every time. You keep on about overwhelming psychological distress and it’s got to be clear no it does not. My aunt went to a face to face she told them the truth and was calm and got it for 10 years enhanced both areas so your points are somewhat clearly invalid   Just tone it down and stop being negative no one in there right mind is gunna provide old evidence that they've been declined for in the past. [edited by moderator]
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    edited May 2019
    @mercedesbd i'm not being negative so please stop shouting at me. Using capitols is classed as shouting in text speak and there's really no need for it. Your whole tone really isn't nice so for that reason i've reported your comment. I will also place you on ignore so i won't be able to see any further comments from you.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • ArtmuzzArtmuzz Member Posts: 43 Connected
    edited May 2019
    Sad to read that my thread is causing some friction.

    This is the whole point why I decided to appeal again against this wrong decision from the DWP because I have new evidence from my Support Worker and Therapist. If I only had the same evidence as before then I wouldn’t of bothered appealing and just moved on.

    I spoke to my Support Worker and she says she will write a letter to the DWP explaining that I am not ready for group therapy because it causes me great distress and anxiety. However, she mentioned that she will mention that I am coping well with other aspects of therapy and support work which has got me a bit worried because the DWP might see that as progress and tell me to get on my bike.

    I also had an appointment with my welfare rights officer who will write to my GP and support workers for information to send to DWP.
  • Antonia_AlumniAntonia_Alumni Scope alumni Posts: 1,781 Pioneering
    edited May 2019
    Hi @Artmuzz welcome to the community. I am sorry about this, no worries you are not at fault at all. We are all here to support you.

    I can understand why you feel hesitate with appealing again, it is not an easy process to go through. But we are here to support you. I hope the links provided above by our members has been useful. We have some information on appealing a decision. 

    It's good to hear you have the support of your Support Worker and the a Welfare Rights officer. I hope it all goes well. 
    Please keep us updated :)
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 587 Listener
    Hey @Artmuzz hope you are doing ok.

    I'm glad you have Welfare Rights helping you, a bit less stress on you then. I hope you get somewhere with it this time.
  • Antonia_AlumniAntonia_Alumni Scope alumni Posts: 1,781 Pioneering
    edited May 2019
    Hi all,

    We appreciate our members support for one another but please remember the importance of respecting other members. We don’t have to agree on everything but respecting other members is important to keeping the community safe and friendly. If you would like to avoid seeing content from a specific user, you can do so by using the ignore list  to hide their discussions comments.

    Please have read through our post on Everyone on our community and their wellbeing is important to us

    Best wishes,
    Antonia
  • tcellmutationtcellmutation Member Posts: 164 Pioneering
    Just giving advice and direction is all that’s needed. My personal opinion on this thread is that @Artmuzz you should not appeal because the writing is on the wall. Realistically you aren’t going to get anywhere. Artmuzz asked what to do. Everyone remember that.
  • ArtmuzzArtmuzz Member Posts: 43 Connected
    edited May 2019
    Just giving advice and direction is all that’s needed. My personal opinion on this thread is that @Artmuzz you should not appeal because the writing is on the wall. Realistically you aren’t going to get anywhere. Artmuzz asked what to do. Everyone remember that.
    So you reckon that even though I have evidence that I suffer severe anxiety and panic when mixing with other people and unable to wash and go out because it gives me psychological distress and panic attacks I haven’t a chance winning an appeal because I am coping well with Therapy and Support Work?
  • tcellmutationtcellmutation Member Posts: 164 Pioneering
    Honestly, I think all these people could be wrong but it’s highly unlikely. I would encourage you to try different avenues to help yourself progress mentally and surround yourself with the support you need to gradually get your head into a positive place. It may sound daunting but in the long run this will be better than sitting through tribunals every 2 - 3 years. I’m in no way insulting you, please don’t think that.
  • mercedesbdmercedesbd Member Posts: 109 Courageous
    Just giving advice and direction is all that’s needed. My personal opinion on this thread is that @Artmuzz you should not appeal because the writing is on the wall. Realistically you aren’t going to get anywhere. Artmuzz asked what to do. Everyone remember that.
    @Artmuzz please do go tribunal if you have NEW proof of anxiety and distress this will go a very long way. After all it’s  not the diagnosis it’s how the condition affects you .
  • mercedesbdmercedesbd Member Posts: 109 Courageous
    @mikehughescq do you have any suggestions/opinions? You seem to speak sense
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,002 Disability Gamechanger
    Let’s start at the beginning. A judge did not make a decision. A panel of three made the decision. Lots of people assume a judge makes the decision because that’s who signs the summary decision. This matters because it’s a wrong assumption and that seems to be where we started. 

    That then begs the question as to how the original poster knows the basis for refusal. It would be unusual if it were detailed in a summary decision as that’s a template used by the clerks. So, either

    - the OP went back in for a verbal decision and was told that or
    - they requested a statement of reasons and record of proceedings or 
    - it’s an assumption. 

    It would be useful to know which of those 3 it was because the bottom line is that some people with a specific condition will qualify and some will not. Often those who do not get immensely frustrated because they dint really understand the process and assumption follows assumption. Nobody on here, me included, can say whether a claim should be pursued to appeal or beyond. That is neither a negative or a positive. You simply can’t get sufficient information on a forum to make that decision. 

    What can be said is that 

    - whilst it’s easy to say people have “nothing to lose” by having a second go, that’s not true, For many already fragile people a second failure can be extremely damaging indeed. Urging people to definitely pursue it is no more or less helpful than telling them not to using phrases like writing is on the wall. Plenty of people, properly assisted, succeed after initial failures when nothing has changed. Equally some people will always fail because their claim cannot succeed on the evidence or their presentation. Face to face advice is the only way to assess the merits.

    - a second claim does not sit in isolation. It really isn’t as simple as having new evidence. Pursue the matter to appeal and evidence from the original claim has to be included. Again, back to the need for face to face advice. 

    - we only get one version on a forum. People refuse meds for many reasons. Some of them make sense; some of them are evidence of deep problems and disengagement or personality disorders and might aid the case if presented properly but some of them are inexplicable. In that context no-one can say on a forum whether the tribunal decision was correct. 

    - having a support worker, CBT and therapy suggest issues but in themselves don’t take us any further. They could be positive because they suggest potential functional issues. Equally they could be to do with nothing that would score points. The same applies to taking or not taking medication. By itself it says nothing. 

    - when the OP has said what points they think they score I can say that was not the most compelling case. Some of the suggested points are patently non-starters. Again though, that could be down to how a person expresses themselves or many other things. 

    Where you end up is with the very 1st response on this thread where  poppy123456 said:
    No one can tell you whether you should appeal the decision, only you can decide that.  
    There really isn’t anything to add to that because it is wholly correct. Bottom line? In order to make an informed decision you need face to face advice 
  • ArtmuzzArtmuzz Member Posts: 43 Connected
    edited May 2019
    Honestly, I think all these people could be wrong but it’s highly unlikely. I would encourage you to try different avenues to help yourself progress mentally and surround yourself with the support you need to gradually get your head into a positive place. It may sound daunting but in the long run this will be better than sitting through tribunals every 2 - 3 years. I’m in no way insulting you, please don’t think that.
    To be honest my Support Worker told me the same thing but she said at the end of the day it’s my choice if I appeal this but she feels that appealing PIP is interrupting my therapy and me getting better even though my anxiety and panic disorder is just as bad as before but I have evidence now to support that. She told me that all the appeals process will do is make me even more ill.

    I do understand what you are saying but I am very unhappy with the scores I got. I agree with getting zero point on a few descriptors but I am very unhappy with only scoring 2 points on social anxiety and zero points on going out and zero points for washing and personal hygiene.

    I have evidence that I have great difficulties with those descriptors and I want those points increased so at least I can get awarded standard rate on daily living  PIP.

    I am also fearful of the appeal because the last appeal wasn't very pleasant and I feel there was a bit of corruption with the Tribunal panel especially the judge and I unfairly failed the appeal. I am also suspicious over the lost audio recording which I was told had now malfunctioned in the dictaphone when I requested it with the statement of reason which is law in Scotland at DWP Tribunals.
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    Where you end up is with the very 1st response on this thread where  poppy123456 said:
    No one can tell you whether you should appeal the decision, only you can decide that.  
    There really isn’t anything to add to that because it is wholly correct. Bottom line? In order to make an informed decision you need face to face advice 
    ….obviously that depends on the claimant. Perhaps they find it difficult to find help, maybe they would find it distressing having to discuss in intimate detail with a complete stranger what their issues are or maybe they are too proud to admit that they need help. I would think that the most vulnerable claimants more so than others who may well have these problems and unfortunately they are the group that would need that advice above all others? 
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