Rejected PIP

DiLited

I have just received my judgement on my PIP claim which was denied.  Reading the notes I am wondering if they are the right notes for me because it doesn't sound like the meeting I was at.  I was a nervous wreck throughout it and cried non-stop but aparently I showed no tenseness and was calm.  I read out my scripts from the screen which is impossible because I can't pronounce them and in reality I had a copy of my script which I handed to her.  I stood up easily - well if rocking back and forward for 3 mins before standing using the desk to steady myself is easy I guess I did.  I didn't understand half the questions for example she kept on asking me how I coped going around the shops.  I told her I didn't go to the shops for various reasons physical and mentally.  After badgering me over and over about how would i go if I did go to the shops I told her that I would have to get in and out as quick as I could which in her mind translated to I was alright going shopping.  The exercises she got me to do were barely moving which was just as well as there was no room between the chair and the desk and I couldn't get up and move the chair. I'm an independant person and if I can do something for myself I will and I find it difficult to admit if something is hurting me so when she asked me to flex my hands I gritted my teeth and did the best I could but that didn't mean that it didn't take it out of me .  She made a big deal of the fact that I had driven there by myself.  I live alone and have no friends or family so I had no choice.  I can't use public transport so I either drove there or missed out.  It was the same with the questions - do you feed yourself?  well if I didn't no one else is there to feed me so I do what I can.  I am so disappointed with the result all the stress, not sleeping before hand makes me want to weep and the effort of the journey and exercises meant that I was bedridden for the next 2 days.  I have phoned them up for a mandatory something or other but I can't see that it will do any good as I'm still waiting on appointments for heart/muscleskelator specialists.

poppy123456

Hi,

You should put your Mandatory reconsideration request in writing, stating where you think you should have scored those points and your reasons why. Adding 2-3 real life examples of what happened the last time you attempted that activity for each descriptor that applies to you.

Send any relevant evidence to support your claim with the letter of request because they very rarely contact anyone for any evidence.

Only 18% of MR decisions change so you'll most likely have to take it to Tribunal. Waiting times for Tribunals are huge and some are waiting about 1 year, so it's not a quick process i'm afraid.

I'd advise you to get some face to face advice from an agency near you. Good luck.

suzy3

Hi there,
I have just had a similar assesment too with the same results. I too questioned if they had the right appointment.
I have just submitted a mandatory reconsideration, I found a guide on line which was really useful and draughts a letter for you and sends to your email. Google support with mandotary reconsideration.
Statistics show a lot of people do not take it any further so.i feel this approach is a saving money measure!!!
However the stress we go through to go through this process can really set you back.
Good luck.

DiLited

The confusing part of the assessment to me is that I was told by the assessor to give the information as how I was on a bad day and yet the entire assessment seems to be based on how I was that day.  As it was a warm day and I was on a course of steroids for my Crohn's my arthritis was a lot better than normal so the information I gave her was different to how I was explaining.  Still it took her just 20 minutes to decide that I was making out I was worse then I was claiming

I have asked for a mandatory reconsideration but I know that it is hopeless.  I have seen articles of other people in the same situation and it is rejected and since it is going to be based on the same information I don't rate my chances.  The main trouble is that you have to be fit and healthy to navigate the system to claim and of course there seems to be a case of if you can manage to apply for this then you don't really need it mentality.  It also seems that they fail to take into account how multiple conditions can affect a person, instead dealing with each condition as a stand alone condition.  My Crohn's means that I have very bad diarrhoea, the arthritis means that there are times I don't make it to the bathroom in time, and this exasperates my anxiety and depression, but when you take each of them seperately then you aren't seeing to whole picture as certain aspects might seem insignificant unless you see how it connects and is interwined.  I have also been informed that the assessors are paid a bonus for every claim they reject so the odds are stacked against you before you even sit down. 

My health getting worse every month (I found out this month that on top of my Crohn's, Type 2 Diabetes, high blood pressure, arthritis, clinical depression, social phobia and anxiety I have suspected cancer of the uterus and cardiomyopathy) and maybe I did jump the gun and apply too early before getting all the information from my specialists but I find myself getting increasingly confused and panicky and since I don't have any family or friends that can act for me I wanted to get it out of the way while I was still able to.  When the reconsideration comes back rejected I'm not going to take it to court as I'm not strong enough to do this.  They would badger me and make mincemeat out of me when I get confused.   I may just wait until I get all the results back and then apply again as the person from DWA suggested and the next time I am going to take an advocate and a tape recorder to record the meeting so that they can't lie like they did this time.

CockneyRebel

It is completely untrue that assessors receive a bonus for rejecting a claim.

PIP is awarded on how your conditions affect the things you can do and not on your illness, diagnosis or condition. It is important to show the effect rather than the cause. As Poppy has said you need to give 2-3 real examples of what happens when you attempt an activity.

Tribunals are not court sittings, they consist of a panel of three, one judge, one medical person and a disability specialist. They are independent and their only purpose is to find out how your condition affects you. They are used to the shinnanigins of the DWP which is why around 70% of appeals succeed when attended in person

poppy123456

DiLited said:

The confusing part of the assessment to me is that I was told by the assessor to give the information as how I was on a bad day and yet the entire assessment seems to be based on how I was that day. 

Are you sure the assessor advised you to do this? That's not what you should have done. PIP is how you're affected 50% of the time over a 12 month period. Telling them your worst day the HCP will most likely see through this, if you're having one of your better days and they will think "if you say this is your worst day then you can't be as bad as you say you are" Always tell the truth when attending any assessment.

Only 18% of MR decisions change so there's a very high chance the decision will remain the same because most do.

DiLited

Those were her exact words - to tell her how I was on a bad day and not at that moment.  I did tell the truth at the assessment.  I remember that because I had been wondering beforehand if the assessment was just going to be based on that day.  If anything I'm always getting told off for not admitting how much pain I'm in or how much I'm suffering but I can't see the point in burdening other people and I don't want people's pity so I just carry on and if anything maybe I should've been more forthcoming about some of my struggles but I didn't understand what they were trying to ask and it has become second nature for me to downplay my difficulties.  I've done that since 1991 and it's only because I'm getting older and worse that I tried for extra help.  I never said that the conditions I was describing was how I was feeling that day and in fact I had written them all down on a piece of paper so it was obvious that I was describing how I was feeling whilst I was there.  As part of my mental lllness I am very easily persuaded that I'm wrong or mistaken so there is no way I would even attempt to lie during the assessment as I'm not trying to get anything that I don't need or deserve.  I'm glad that it's not true that they get a bonus.  The person who told me used to work in the department but maybe they had their own axe to grind with the system.  I still don't think I could face a panel as at the moment the slightest test (even blood pressure test) is enough to make my heart pound and I feel like I'm going to either start screaming or faint.

cristobal

@DiLited - I'm sorry to hear the effect that this is having on you

Before you go further I’d advise that you look at the PIP Assessment guidance - it’s on line. This will give you an idea of how many points you should score and is important because this is what the DWP use to assess claims so you know what the ‘rules’ are. Also there are some ‘anomalies’ which it's wise to be aware of,such as Bathing, which doesn’t include drying yourself?

Read it carefully and then you will know exactly what each of the categories mean.

For example category 1 is about cooking for yourself which, according to the DWP, means:-

…a claimant’s ability to prepare and cook a simple meal for one from fresh ingredients. It assesses ability to open packaging, peel and chop, serve food on to a plate and use a microwave oven or cooker hob to cook or heat food. Serving food means transferring food to a plate or bowl, it does not include presentation.

If you aren’t able to do this explain why e.g. you have a arthritis and are unable to chop veg,or open a packet, or your grip is very bad and you cannot lift a saucepan off the hob. 

Also explain what you do if you can’t do something (you’re expected to use an aid to help you if you can)

Do this for each of the categories.

I’m not an assessor but, in relation to driving to the assessment I think that they probably concluded that you can go out on your own, find your way somewhere unfamiliar, have sufficient cognitive function to be able to drive, can grip a steering wheel, sit for long periods etc.

Curiously, when I had my assessment, they concluded that since I could drive a car I could pay for things/ calculate change when shopping!

Good luck…

poppy123456

This link will help you understand the PIP descriptors and what they mean. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria

WythenshaweBi

And also there is further advice on https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/

Gerald

DiLited said:

I have just received my judgement on my PIP claim which was denied.  Reading the notes I am wondering if they are the right notes for me because it doesn't sound like the meeting I was at.  I was a nervous wreck throughout it and cried non-stop but aparently I showed no tenseness and was calm.  I read out my scripts from the screen which is impossible because I can't pronounce them and in reality I had a copy of my script which I handed to her.  I stood up easily - well if rocking back and forward for 3 mins before standing using the desk to steady myself is easy I guess I did.  I didn't understand half the questions for example she kept on asking me how I coped going around the shops.  I told her I didn't go to the shops for various reasons physical and mentally.  After badgering me over and over about how would i go if I did go to the shops I told her that I would have to get in and out as quick as I could which in her mind translated to I was alright going shopping.  The exercises she got me to do were barely moving which was just as well as there was no room between the chair and the desk and I couldn't get up and move the chair. I'm an independant person and if I can do something for myself I will and I find it difficult to admit if something is hurting me so when she asked me to flex my hands I gritted my teeth and did the best I could but that didn't mean that it didn't take it out of me .  She made a big deal of the fact that I had driven there by myself.  I live alone and have no friends or family so I had no choice.  I can't use public transport so I either drove there or missed out.  It was the same with the questions - do you feed yourself?  well if I didn't no one else is there to feed me so I do what I can.  I am so disappointed with the result all the stress, not sleeping before hand makes me want to weep and the effort of the journey and exercises meant that I was bedridden for the next 2 days.  I have phoned them up for a mandatory something or other but I can't see that it will do any good as I'm still waiting on appointments for heart/muscleskelator specialists.

Hi that is just like me I was looking at it and thinking this is some report is not me.

Matilda

@DiLited

Many assessors are either incompetent or liars or both.

It's best to make an MR in writing.

advice now.org.uk/pip-tool

will generate an MR submission letter.

I suggest you concentrate on preparing for your appeal submission as your MR might well be refused.  Only 20% succeed whereas 71% of tribunal appeals do.  

It's worth going to tribunal despite the hassle as so many tribunal appeals win.  Be sure of how your disabilities affect you and don't let the panel lead you into saying something different.  The panel will challenge you.

Alternatively, you can make a new PIP claim at any time.  Try to get some f2f help from CAB or similar, or local authority welfare rights.

Take a look at Disability Rights UK site: their list of descriptors and appeals guide.

You could have taken a taxi to the assessment centre and assessment company would have refunded your fares if you had agreed this with them in advance.   Driving yourself can indicate several skills to assessors and appeals panels: concentration, manual dexterity, energy, stamina.  Though making a few short car journeys a week shouldn't lose someone points.

You might be able to feed yourself but you have great difficulty doing so and probably can't do so in an acceptable time, i.e. it takes you more than twice as long as it would a non-disabled person.

The exercises I was given at my assessment were very superficial so in my appeal submission I put that I'd defy anyone not paralysed not to be able to do them adequately! 

Panel increased my PIP from standard both to enhanced both.

PIP points are awarded for how your conditions affect your daily living and mobility, not for the conditions themselves.

Threesticks

CockneyRebel said:

It is completely untrue that assessors receive a bonus for rejecting a claim.

PIP is awarded on how your conditions affect the things you can do and not on your illness, diagnosis or condition. It is important to show the effect rather than the cause. As Poppy has said you need to give 2-3 real examples of what happens when you attempt an activity.

Tribunals are not court sittings, they consist of a panel of three, one judge, one medical person and a disability specialist. They are independent and their only purpose is to find out how your condition affects you. They are used to the shinnanigins of the DWP which is why around 70% of appeals succeed when attended in person

Not true. Maybe the assessor on the day doesn't receive a bonus. They get paid though and their companies who they work for, Atos and Capita, get massive payments. Fifty five million pounds they've been paid. I'd say that was a nice little bonus. Duncan Smith, told everybody who'd listen, whilst eating his £45. 00 breakfast. Quote " You can live off £53.00 a week" unquote, as he got back into his range rover and drove back to his two million pound house. "Although" being reported yesterday, a terminal I'll man was told by the DWP he is fit for work and paid him £15.00 a week. So please don't tell us, they don't receive bonuses for getting disabled off entitlements.

All to save money and tighten our belts, what was Camoron's buzzword " we're all in it together ". Well not them of course. All they've, allegedly, saved is 2%, that's not including how much they'e had to spend on more DWP staff, Capita and Atos. I totally agree with @Matilda.

Matilda

Tribunal panels should make allowances for panic attacks.  At the start of my hearing, the judge told me I could go outside at any time if I wanted, no need to ask permission.  I assume this is standard procedure.

sheZZa

It sounds so very much like my interrogation. I’m expecting to have to apply for a mandatory consideration.
Keep fighting and good luck 

Threesticks

ilovecats said:

Assessors do not get bonuses for reducing or removing PIP payments.

I've quoted what was said by a millionaire Politician, the feind who had disabled folks well-being at heart, clearly and what is being reported in the press. " If " you've read my post you would see what I had written about Atos and Capita. My question to you @ilovecats, are you saying the press are reporting incorrectly on the figures quoted on their payments  and how do you know for sure an assessor does not receive a bonus ? I suspect they don't, or none of us would receive anything. I did however find my assessor incompetent, somewhat rude and didn't listen. Whatever happened to integrity (rhetorical). But by all accounts, I had a reasonable assessor, but then again she would have been very foolish to argue with forty-five years of medical history. But I still have to go, with cap in hand, and beg at a tribunal for something I've been paying for, for fifty years, and still do. 

I worked for some years in the NHS and always looked after my patients like they were my family and watched others in the NHS, treat them like dirt on their shoe.  Had great respect for the NHS and some of it's staff, now sadly that is fading fast. I pointed this out, because most assessors worked/work for the NHS at some point in their career.  

twonker

DiLited said:

I have just received my judgement on my PIP claim which was denied.  Reading the notes I am wondering if they are the right notes for me because it doesn't sound like the meeting I was at.  I was a nervous wreck throughout it and cried non-stop but aparently I showed no tenseness and was calm.  I read out my scripts from the screen which is impossible because I can't pronounce them and in reality I had a copy of my script which I handed to her.  I stood up easily - well if rocking back and forward for 3 mins before standing using the desk to steady myself is easy I guess I did.  I didn't understand half the questions for example she kept on asking me how I coped going around the shops.  I told her I didn't go to the shops for various reasons physical and mentally.  After badgering me over and over about how would i go if I did go to the shops I told her that I would have to get in and out as quick as I could which in her mind translated to I was alright going shopping.  The exercises she got me to do were barely moving which was just as well as there was no room between the chair and the desk and I couldn't get up and move the chair. I'm an independant person and if I can do something for myself I will and I find it difficult to admit if something is hurting me so when she asked me to flex my hands I gritted my teeth and did the best I could but that didn't mean that it didn't take it out of me .  She made a big deal of the fact that I had driven there by myself.  I live alone and have no friends or family so I had no choice.  I can't use public transport so I either drove there or missed out.  It was the same with the questions - do you feed yourself?  well if I didn't no one else is there to feed me so I do what I can.  I am so disappointed with the result all the stress, not sleeping before hand makes me want to weep and the effort of the journey and exercises meant that I was bedridden for the next 2 days.  I have phoned them up for a mandatory something or other but I can't see that it will do any good as I'm still waiting on appointments for heart/muscleskelator specialists.

I'm not surprised that the assessor took that view. You said that you could go out alone in the car and dive to the shops without getting lost. You completed the movement assessment fully without describing any pain issues, You explained that after shopping for food you are able to cook for yourself.

Nothing wrong in what you have said, but unfortunately you have not understood what the descriptors say and mean. It is with those descriptors in mind that you find the correct way to answer their questions. You appear to have thought that it is just an question and answer session. Far from it, You have to be aware of why they ask the questions and answering in a way that is the truth but also focuses on the answer you need to give.

DiLited

What I said to the assessor was that if forced to I could drive a short distance but it took a lot of planning and took a huge toll on me.  Some days it is also impossible or at the very best illegal as I'm unable to fasten a seatbelt other days I can't go out because I wouldn't be able to turn the steering wheel.  I will admit that I've completely misunderstood what they were trying to ascertain when it came to eating.  Yes I shop for food - it is done by the internet because I can't carry food into the house easily.  Yes I eat when I remember to normally I eat one meal a day and it is usually either a frozen meal that I microwave or a sandwich.  I also either forget to eat or have a mental block because eating causes me pain and often go 3 days on just cups of tea before I realise that I haven't eaten in a while and that is why I can't sleep.  I also forget to take my medication and have been told off by the doctor for it when my my repeat perscriptions aren't getting ordered in the correct timescale.  Some days I can't take the lids off or pop the tablets out.  I was taking a knife to bed for the blister packs but I started having trouble holding the knife and was slicing my fingers open so I now use nail scissors which is very painful not only because of my arthritis but because I'm left handed.  As for not describing the pain to the assessor I didn't see you in the assessment but if you had been there you would have known that I told the assessor that my shoulders felt like they were dislocated.  my elbows felt stiff, my fingers in the morning took a couple of hours before I could unfurl them, my hips had a deep throbbing ache, my knees kept giving out, my wrists and ankles felt like someone was hitting them with a hammer and my toes felt like they were curled under my foot when I walked on them.  Of course I don't get all of the pain every day.  One day my shoulders will be the worse and then I know I can't wash my hair or shower that day, the next day it will be my ankles and I know that walking will be out that day.  the next it might be my fingers or wrists and I know that I won't be able to use my computer which is my only connection to the outside world.   Add onto that violent diarrhoea and stomach cramps that make you reluctant to go out because you don't know if you are going to make it across a carpark without messing yourself and the torment of realising that you have become an object of pity and laughter to everyone and maybe you will understand why I may not have understood the complexity of questions.  I thought that they would understand that I'm confused and upset and I answered the questions simply and truthfully not trying to find hidden traps that had been laid to trip me up because I thought they were there to help me.

Matilda

Your issues probably were too complex for the assessor to understand - because they are clerks rather than disability experts.

You have to keep things simple for them.  Decide which descriptors apply to you.  These descriptors have to apply at least 50% of the time, I.e. at least 4 days out of 7.

twonker

DiLited said:

I thought that they would understand that I'm confused and upset and I answered the questions simply and truthfully not trying to find hidden traps that had been laid to trip me up because I thought they were there to help me.

Far from it the assessor is there, paid for by the DWP, to make a judgement on what they see and hear. They should never be treated as being there to help you - they only assess you on what the DWP have told them to do.

Threesticks

I have been informed today. The DWP are tasked to reject 80% or all appeals for PIP on MR. This is an outrage and one I will be taking up with my MP. I won't hold my breath though.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dwp-benefit-appeals-target-reject-80-per-cent-outrageous-pip-jobseekers-allowance-department-work-a7740101.html?fbclid=IwAR0bO9g0CKx1xBaeOH0WNmQWaD3KZe3j7G2D5Nc33zHFM84N9iPCRgfDO-I