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Can a vehickle be classed as an aid

boriswhoboriswho Posts: 153 Member
If not do you know why not?
If this question has already been asked..
Could you direct me to this thanks


  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    No because people without a disability use vehicles all the time.

    2.1.21 For the purpose of the PIP assessment, aids and appliances may be everyday objects, but whether they are considered as aids in any particular case depends on how the claimant uses the object compared to how (if at all) it might typically be used by someone with no relevant impairment. Where the object would usually or normally be used in the same way by someone without any limitation in carrying out the relevant activity, it is unlikely to be considered an aid or appliance.

    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    @boriswho - I'm going a little bit off-topic here, for which I apologise...

    I did intend to mention the fact that 'mobility' is slightly different to a lot of the daily living descriptors.'Moving around' assesses whether you can get up and move a particular distance aided or unaided. So, if I read this correctly, if you can get up and reliably move a certain distance to wouldn't make any difference whether you used a walking stick, or frame etc.

    What I've now confused myself about, and I apologise in advance if I confuse you and everyone else, is this:-

    My late Mum had really bad arthritis and could barely walk. She could get up, with a bit of difficulty, and use her mobility scooter to whizz around the town (which was brilliant as she could get out and see her friends.)

    Had she applied for PIP then she would have scored 0 points for mobility because she could get up move 200metres either aided/unaided.

    This can't be right surely - so what am I failing to understand?

    @ilovecats ??
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    @cristobal no, that's not correct. The moving around part takes into consideration a person ability to stand and move, aided or unaided outside, on flat even ground. Pavements are included in this.

    It doesn't include a persons ability to stand and transfer into a wheelchair or similar device. Individuals who require a wheelchair or similar device to move a distance should not be considered able to stand and move that distance.

    If your mum couldn't walk 20 metres regularly, reliably, without pain and discomfort then she would have scored 12 points in activity 12E.

    Boris asked about the use of a vehicle (car) this activity doesn't include this for the reason i gave above.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    edited August 2019
    Thanks @poppy123456.... I realised that a car isn't an aid which why I apologised for going off topic a bit...

    It probably doesn't matter - certainly not to my Mum bless her - but I wonder if the DWP guidance might have just been badly written? 

    According to the their guidelines an aid can include, "wheelchairs to replace mobilising" 

    Yet, as you correctly say, the guidelines under 'moving around' wouldn't consider transferring to a wheelchair etc..

    So I'm struggling to see how anyone can use a wheelchair as an aid - the guidance clearly says that it's an aid but then equally clearly says that it's not considered under mobility?

    Don't worry, unless there's something fundamental that I'm missing - I'll probably confuse people in addition to myself...

    I'll file this along with the other mobility stuff such as finding your way around, for which I scored points and still have absolutely no idea why!
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    Thanks @ilovecats - your explanation makes a lot of sense.

    Unfortunately it's seems to completely contrary to the DWP guidelines

    Do you mind if I ask if you remember where the distinction between 'aids' and 'appliances', and the fact that using an appliance is not 'reliable' comes from? 

    [Just to say, as I hope you realise, that I'm genuinely interested and would like to understand - I don't mean to point the finger and say 'You're wrong!' - more of a polite enquiry]

    Maybe you could message me if you don't mind - but no bother if not....

  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    @ilovecats - thanks.

    I'm guessing what has happened is that someone at DWP (possibly someone who used to make the tea and sweep up!) wrote the guidelines, and someone at Capita used these guidelines to write some different guidelines, and train assessors. Consequently they don't say what the law says, which can be unfortunate.

    Thanks for your time....

    PS I intend no disrespect to someone who makes the tea - they provide a valuable service...

  • boriswhoboriswho Posts: 153 Member
    @both of you thankyou for your input. this maybe of some consequence
    1. If i put a descriptor in my application stating moving around "it varies" i now have to explain these variations. which i have not done very well, and the tribunal made a decision based on the questions asked. I gave and offered no verbal explanation to this or the effects of the line of questioning but just tried to be honest.

    • increases of randomized pain or exacerbations caused by walking anywhere up & down curbs(is a kerb not a gradient?) should i be explaining what even the slightest gradient does? or that stairs to get outside caused a flare up in the knee before i even got outside.
    • the variates of severity of the exacerbation when i have a give in either knee or ankle, should i rate this on a scale 1-10 in my two week diary? should i push myself trying to do 0-20mtrs or to 200mtrs and put myself through more intense pain over 2 weeks whilst writing the diary symtoms( i dont think i should have to when i already know the outcome)
    • how long an exacerbation lasts? mild moderate or severe ? how long each instance lasts?
    • the severity of aching on good & bad days - that good days can quickly turn to a bad days quite quickly by the effects my condition & symptoms or that which i experience 
    • the effects of walking repeatedly upto 20 or 50 or 200 meters should i just call it 0 to 200 meters
    • Also should there be a description of average days?
    • should i not also include symtoms in the home before i leave to move around outdoors but inside say a supermarket after driving there. should the description be outside on the flatest pavement avoiding kerbs or even the slightest gradient? to show even without the gradients how im affected and that its not just walking rising or declining surfaces that severly exacerbate symptoms or that it is more of a matter of time over distance increasing symptoms - or that its the gradients that are even more seen more then kerbs id say.(where i live anyhow)
    • that i avoid repeatedly mobilising upto 200 meters becasue of the issues posed.
    • am i expected to just use a wheelchair and accept that im knackered and just give up? should i have an aid ie a walking stick i dont think so i tried 2 sticks from hospital last year these affected my wrists arms shoulders painfully.
    • should i try to explain in percantages maybe this will be transparent enough
    • should just goto the vets and say ive had enough just put me out of this misery

    oh hopnestly i cant be bothered anymore my heads battered. I wont give in so easy tho its not in my nature as you can see.

    its extremly difficult to get down into words that cant be taken out of context...the effects that ive been trying to provide with written explanations of this so far have failed, to which i cannot verbally do very well due to pressure i feel is exerted when questioned in 1 on 1 situations or 1 on 3 in a tribunal my partner was told not to speak she was asked at the end if she had anything to say but she just said how it had affected me mentally. Sorry but im just not a people person any more I dont like people. its nothing personal id rather just put it down on paper.
    so im trying to get it down on paper clear as day that i can not reapeadly walk 0 - 200 meters with out severe pain that stops me in my tracks, and this has a lasting after effect and that the effects of more severe instances of a give which cause a limp which then has an effect on the opposit leg causing that one to deteriate quickly whilst that limp eases slightly over a period of say 4 days and im now able to use that knee again without severe pain but the opposit leg that has been overburdened for 4 days is now showing the same symptoms as the innitial knee that gave in the 1st place placing met in  almost a constant loop.
    these are not the only issues i have with my muscular skeletal system but ones that should be relevant to moving around.
    I have lots of ammunition so to speak just keep trying to extract it you clever people. i can recall many journeys outdoors that i could get accurately measure  to the point of a give or severe exacerbation of my painful knees
  • boriswhoboriswho Posts: 153 Member
    Q3c extra information preparing food.
    ⦁ my conditions affect me preparing me food by the following
    I. I experience sharp stabbing pains in the knees(with instances of giving way) stopping me in my tracks. , ankles (with instances of giving way rhs)stopping me in my tracks. ,and sharp stabbing like pains with my lower back stopping me in my tracks. 
    II. A deep neck ache that rises exponentially  with leaning forwards prepare food to the point of causing a defening ringing like tinnitus in my ears. 
    III. sitting down peeling and cutting vegtables is difficult with  pain & stiffness in my hands causing sharp stabbing pains preventing me from completeing the task efficiently or safely. My lower back becomes stiff and painful when sitting also. My knees ache deeply. 
    ⦁ I manage by eating simple meals or snacks have nothing until my partner returns from work. I should not take my medication without food becasue of side effects experienced
    ⦁ 10 to 15 minutes cooking simple meals providing my knees or ankles dont give way or I do not eat till my partner returns from work or eat out providing i have the money and fuel to do so. 
    ⦁ this does affect me differently throughout the day monings are generally stiff and aching which has eased up by lunchtime somewhat with medication and physiotherapy, between lunchtime and  teatime im generally very tired from overexertion ( A good day can turn into a Bad day through further injury to my knees when they have given way which exacerbates knee pain) and  looking after my son when my partner is at work and  I need to have a sleep usually between lunchtime and teatime
    I. these issues do vary on average  I normally experince  5 bad days on average with little small releif from any of my conditions during the good days
    ⦁ I cant prepare a meal standing up its very painful, i cant do this sitting down its very painful. I have difficulty cooking a meal as standing causes alot of discomfort and pain this is a problem when my partner is at work, she has to prepare and cook mine and our childs  as I cannot do it becasue of the pain ful issues listed on page 8, 33, 34.
    ⦁ I experience sharp stabbing pains in the knees, ankles and fingers and thumbs, lower back, and a worsening of deep acheing pain in the neck (causing severe ringing in the ears) with the exponentially worsening ache in my neck, and knees,ankle and lower back.
    ⦁ I need help from my partner preparing and cooking food, I do not get this help when my partner is at work.
    I. My kitchen is ill prepared for someone with my difficulties I only have two small cupboards to store items in everything else is below waist height forcing the need to bend over which exacerbates lower back painful back symtoms.
  • boriswhoboriswho Posts: 153 Member
    Q15 additional information:
    Health conditions and affects when.
    1. Ankle RHS pain & instability: 
    I. This varies and increases with weight bearing activitys with distance over time.
    II. Standing (weight bearing), walking causes an increase in  pain, or painful random gives that are more frequent the further I travel.
    III. discomfort & pain is experienced when walking in the range of upto 20 meters this slows me to around 50 percent walking speed at a reduced capacity to freely move without sharp pains or discomforting cracking catching of the joint forcing me to load the opposit leg with alot of weight which in turn reduces its capacity over time. 
    IV. More painful stabbing like sensations increase with distance upto 50 meters stopping me for a moment I can push through the discomfort and pain to keep moving as stopping can have a negative effect to the joint, and also my lower back and neck through having to sit down.
    V. A give in the ankle worsens the above over these distances significantly by at least 25% more or more depending on severity of the pain during the give and afterwards additionally my knees are affected after a give is experienced. a moderate ache later in the day.

    VI. walking up to 200 meters these issues above worsen & stop me in my tracks forcing me to stop completely and need to sit additionally instability is experienced more often when i travel upto this distance episodes of  pains that radiate down the  bones in and around in my ankle & foot. causes a severe ache later in the day.

    VII. A very uncomfortable feeling of the ankle catching also painful cracking inside the ankle joint when sitting doing rom exersizes

    VIII. . During sharp pains the ankle gives out.

    IX. Sitting driving holding the accelerator to maintain speed or repetative movement of the accelerator causes an increased  deep ache.

    X. Upon rising from seated position there is an increase in pain innitially upon weight bearing then thereafter as each step is taken sharp pains become a limp followed by a give with increased pain and offloading weight to my stronger leg causing issues similar to the right side. 

    XI. steps stairs and even slight gradients also make a massive difference to pain experienced also increase sharp pains severely and make me stumble often going up or down increasing chance of falling this. however also this happens on flat surfaces mutilplied by over disance time.

    all the above sypmtoms cause opposit sided similar less severe issues as well as the gives in the rhs ankle affecting the knees and more painful episodes where i travel further forcing me to sit down.

    additionally when the right sided ankle has the above issues through more active periods becomes moreof weight bearing painful for a period of say 2 days the other sided knee & ankle becomes more problematic
    although the ankle(LHS) has not been as severe it does pose similar issues indicating similar injury becasue of my fall from height weight transferance.

  • boriswhoboriswho Posts: 153 Member
    Lower back pain loss & loss of range of movement and pain
    1. Additionally during more severe instances I experience limited range of movements because of severity of the pain rendering me unable to move without severe discomfort and pain.
  • boriswhoboriswho Posts: 153 Member
    unfortunately due to the stockastic nature of the issues Ive been experiencing accross varying parts of my body its been very difficult for me to pin down exactly the symptoms durations & durations of exacerbations of the injurys and still is difficult for me to explain hopefully you will understand and put an award in place for me due simply not being able to mobilise as an normal person would be able. with the same injurys but without the degenerative condition
    as stated previously a fall from height caused:
    a. fractures talus bone right ankle
    b. menisucs tears bilaterally from mri scan laid upon OA of the right knee.
    c. A widespread degenerative condition in the right knee.
    d. The symptom ive sexperiences with the left sided lower limbs that are identical to the right sided lower limbs indicating the same problems with the left sided limbs limiting my ability to move around of that of a+b 
    e. whiplash injury sustained has caused severe neck ache issues 
    f. severe lower back pain loss of ROM from another carrying injury sustained at work some 20 years ago. with long term suffering

  • boriswhoboriswho Posts: 153 Member
    oops sorry wrong thread

  • boriswhoboriswho Posts: 153 Member
    OK so I had to do some pizza delivery last night because of shortage of money for food 
    I help a takeaway that I used to work for who phone me often when they're short of staff done 10 deliverys of made 1 pound per delivery got 3 and pound in tips over a period of 3 hours  all of my delivery were on the ground floor houses with average walking distance from my car to they're front door of 6.5 meters per drop there. I experienced several mild to moderate flares of knees ankle. Not stopping me completely but the now
    After effect s today all mainly exacerbated symptoms lower limbs knees ankle  of aching sharp stabbing like pains & blunt like pains of "hitting your thumb with a hammer gently" walking a few meters around the home is now making these pains moderate to severe. Stopping me I'm my tracks forcing a sit down which is worsening back stiffness as well as neck.

  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    @boriswho - you've gone round in a circle again! You're on the third lap now...

    How about this? 

    When you fill in you application you have one page with whats wrong with you, diagnoses etc. Fill this in.

    Once you've done that, forget about it. Completely forget about your ankle, leg, teared meniscus, cracking noises, scans, triple knee replacements, X-rays, They have little relevance to PIP so don't write about it ever again! Never!

    Then read and understand the PIP descriptors as you've been advised many many times.

    You end up with something like this:-

    "I am unable to prepare a meal without sitting down as my condition make my leg so painful that I cannot stand for more than one or two minutes. I have stool in the kitchen which I sit at in order to prepare vegetables etc etc....I have to do this for every meal. I have tried to manage without a stool but the pain due to standing became too much so I had to stop cooking completely and lie down in order to rest my leg. I've tried to manage without sitting several times - the most recent was two weeks ago. One one occasion ( about a month ago) my knee gave way and I fell."

    This will score 2 points as you need an aid to cook (or it would do if I hadn't just made it up!)

    Repeat for the other descriptors.

    Important - I don't believe anyone on here doubts that you have problems with your legs. Don't mention them anymore - concentrate on what you can and can't do!
  • JulieTuesdayJulieTuesday Member Posts: 47 Connected
    Hi, I find this thread interesting as I have an assessor coming to do a f2f at my home next week.  I can walk without pain but I have a balance issue which makes me have fallen and the balance issue is caused by permanent damage to my vestibular in my inner ear after an ear operation. It is a standard problem with the type of operation and especially as I had and further serious infection which damaged inside my inner ear. So my question is although I'm not in pain when I walk I can have falls (and do) and I've lost my confidence walking now so I don't go out, how do I explain that to the assessor because I can walk 20 metres without pain but could wobble and fall within 20 metres?  I filled in my pip form saying I can wobble and fall at anytime but I'm not in pain, I think I've done that wrong now? I do use a stick to walk if I go in my garden.  :/

  • JulieTuesdayJulieTuesday Member Posts: 47 Connected
    OK and thank you lovecats, I will do that.  :)
  • boriswhoboriswho Posts: 153 Member
    should i request a home visit
  • JulieTuesdayJulieTuesday Member Posts: 47 Connected
    Dear Boris, I didn't ask for a home visit and didn't want one either. I feel like it's an invasion of my privacy I'm am not looking forward to it at all.  I put on my PIP 2 form that I can visit an assessment centre as long as there is a lift. I was surprised to get this. :(
  • JulieTuesdayJulieTuesday Member Posts: 47 Connected
    Thank you lovecats. I have had Asthma attacks in the past so could be this reason, although Asthma is not my main reason for asking for some help.  :|

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    boriswho said:
    should i request a home visit
    For this you'll need a letter from your GP stating the reasons why you can't attend an assessment centre. Also as you're able to go out then this could very likely go against you for a home assessment.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • boriswhoboriswho Posts: 153 Member
    Matilda said:
    This is just by way of info about why people are awarded PIP points, which might help those applying for PIP, asking for mandatory reconsideration and appealing to a tribunal.

    To qualify for points, your disabilities only have to affect you seriously enough for more than 50% of the time, i.e. at least four days a week.

    After assessment I was awarded 11 points for daily living - all of those because I had difficulty undertaking/completing tasks even using aids.  2 points each for bathing, dressing, using the toilet, preparing food, taking nutrition and 1 point for taking medication.  In other words, you should get points for having difficulty doing things even with the help of aids.

    Tribunal gave me 2 extra points for food prep because for more than 50% of the time I would need someone to help me.

    Disability Rights (DR) site has a good guide to all aspects of PIP, including the list of descriptors, and a draft diary which you can adapt.  I recommend submission of a 7-day diary with your PIP application.

    For getting around mobility the criteria are:

    Unable to walk before needing to stop and rest:

    Up to 20m aided or unaided  12 points

    20m-50m aided   10 points

    20m-50m unaided   8 points

    You are allowed to walk farther in each category and still qualify if you are struggling because of pain, stiffness, instability or fatigue.

    Some people have reported losing getting around points because they said, for example, they couldn't walk more than 50m without aids but aids allowed them to walk more than 50m.  Remember that you won't get qualifying points if you can walk more than 20m or 50m as the case may be, regardless of aids - unless the reliability criteria of pain, stiffness, instability or fatigue apply.

    Assessors and tribunals probably will ask for how long, not how far, you an walk.  Always say it takes you X time to walk Y meters.  Just stating for how long is open to very wide interpretation.

  • boriswhoboriswho Posts: 153 Member
    The 2200 meter trek certainly wrecked me for at least 50% of that week in May - I don't do it any more .
    I'm going to do it before my next assessment however
  • boriswhoboriswho Posts: 153 Member
    I think even if I had not pushed myself that day and had done 1000 meters or 500 meter this would have had the same effect.
    I was off the planet with the drugs I was taking during this time probably helping me accomplish this.
  • boriswhoboriswho Posts: 153 Member
    unless the reliability criteria of pain, stiffness, instability or fatigue apply.
  • boriswhoboriswho Posts: 153 Member
    My knees experience a give randomly
  • boriswhoboriswho Posts: 153 Member
    Am I right in think I cannot do 20 50 or 200 reliably repeatedly or safely apply
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger

    Assessors and tribunals probably will ask for how long, not how far, you an walk.  Always say it takes you X time to walk Y meters.  Just stating for how long is open to very wide interpretation.

    @matilda - it's good you pointed this out.

    Since the descriptor is assessed on how far you can walk 'reliably' i.e. safely, and within a reasonable time then asking how long you walked for without asking how far you went is completely pointless. It will tell the assessor absolutely nothing.

    If you walked for an hour it might sound like you are pretty mobile - but not if you only went a mile.

    Conversely if you could only walk for a minute - that doesn't sound good but if you covered 100m and could walk back after a rest then you'd score 0 points.

    I have only had one assessment but my assessor really struggled with this and asked quite a lot of meaningless questions.

    "Can you walk as far as the church" (it's up a steep hill)

    "How far was it from the car park? Could you see your car?" (don't know what this was about - I couldn't see my car because it was round a corner! How far can you see anyway?)

    I fully agree with your advice. 

    Before an assessment get a good idea of the distance that you can walk 'reliably' and then if the assessor wants to play guessing games just stick to your guns.

  • boriswhoboriswho Posts: 153 Member
    I think I've misunderstood questions at tribunal 

  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    boriswho said:
    Am I right in think I cannot do 20 50 or 200 reliably repeatedly or safely apply
    Boris - if I understand you correctly your query is with the 'reliability' test - safely, good standard, reasonable time, repeatably...

    This applies to everything.

    It's easy to show with walking  - generally an accepted average walk is 3MPH so if you can't manage half of this then that's not 'timely'.

    Be careful though because DWP have come up with a lot lower figure (which I can't remember now}

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    boriswho said:
    The 2200 meter trek certainly wrecked me for at least 50% of that week in May - I don't do it any more .
    I'm going to do it before my next assessment however
    I wouldn't advise you do this. For the assessment just be yourself, tell the truth and be honest.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • boriswhoboriswho Posts: 153 Member
    Why would you say that poppy.
  • boriswhoboriswho Posts: 153 Member
    They need to see me having difficulties
  • boriswhoboriswho Posts: 153 Member
    Cristobal- my walk deteriorated quickly walking so the start speed certainly wouldn't be the end speed if not stopped completely.
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    Further to my last post I've found this in the DWP guidelines....

    the walking speed which is deemed within a reasonable time period is 30 metres per minute.

    It doesn't seem accurate - it's incredibly slow - but it's useful to know the guideline (even if it is wrong!)
  • boriswhoboriswho Posts: 153 Member
    1/2 meter per second. Wow
    What about reliably. 

  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    Boris ''reliably" means all of - safely, timely, repeatable, to a good standard....

    Have a look at the DWP guidelines - it's all explained there...

    Poppy gave you the link a couple of days ago ...
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    @boriswho - when you say "they need to see me having difficulties" I genuinely don't think half-killing yourself on a 2km trek, after all the difficulties you've explained, is a good thing...

    Be honest - if you need to cripple yourself the day before to get PIP it's not worth it.

    Just my opinion...
  • boriswhoboriswho Posts: 153 Member

    Thanks so much Cristobal.
    O know there's too much info my head hurts when I look at it I go dizzy. 
    I think.. 
    I'm never going to pass on timely unless I experience the give which is too random. I'm slowed somewhat but I don't think it's as low as 1/2 meter per second unless I've stopped for a moment.
    Repeatedly I would satisfy as effects during and mainly afterwards on all the distances specified are severe in my mind as I need to rest very often and get tired easily, As the effects are very painful.
    Safely well gives don't actually make me fall they just mainly stop me on one leg as its rare for both to go at the same time. But it's certainly becoming a possibility as both legs are very weak and niggly now I need to exercise but can't walk far repeadedly. I've just about got my pain under some sort of control this has taken along time. 
    Im going to test next 7 days walking and record with my diary that someone supplied on my other post.

    I'm trying to recall the 2200 meter time I'm sure it was 45 minutes each way give or take 10 - 15  minutes 

    Calculators at the ready ..... 😝😝

  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    @boriswho - would you be best putting everything on the back burner for a few days whilst your head clears?

    Forget about PIP, and do something nice.

    Switch off for a week or so - then come back to it fresh ...

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