when is somebody in power going to listen?

worried33

Try not to make this an anti tory issue, one could easily point out that labour introduced ESA and the WCA and made public claims it was done to kick a million people off benefits.

The WCA e.g. is based on the PCA, but with the removal of various descriptors making it harder to score points, only certain descriptors grant SG regardless of points scored, and certain descriptors have them pretending fictional situations for the claimant.  A clear blatant attempt to simply cut numbers.

However PIP is somewhat different, the mobility side is a clear cost cutting change, the government did openly admit to this.  However the daily living side is a change of focus on where the help is targeted at,  Very different descriptors to what DLA was and is not a basic rebrand,

There is people like me who wouldnt qualify for DLA but do for PIP.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Roddy

worried33 said:

Try not to make this an anti tory issue, one could easily point out that labour introduced ESA and the WCA and made public claims it was done to kick a million people off benefits.

The WCA e.g. is based on the PCA, but with the removal of various descriptors making it harder to score points, only certain descriptors grant SG regardless of points scored, and certain descriptors have them pretending fictional situations for the claimant.  A clear blatant attempt to simply cut numbers.

However PIP is somewhat different, the mobility side is a clear cost cutting change, the government did openly admit to this.  However the daily living side is a change of focus on where the help is targeted at,  Very different descriptors to what DLA was and is not a basic rebrand,

There is people like me who wouldnt qualify for DLA but do for PIP.

Well, nobody else is responsible for it... Labour, are not in government. 

poppy123456

Roddy said:

I know @cristobal, but that part of my point. PIP simply replaced DLA but it's more or less the same thing with the same criterion, and it's only difference is what it's now called. It shouldn't penalise or go back on previous DLA decisions, but it does.

This is where alot of people don't understand PIP. I'm afraid you are not correct here. PIP replaced DLA yes but that's where it ends. They are different benefits with different criteria. The only benefit award that will ever say indefinite was DLA.

PIP, UC, ESA etc are not the same and there is no definite awards of either of them.

dolfrog

worried33 said:

Try not to make this an anti tory issue, one could easily point out that labour introduced ESA and the WCA and made public claims it was done to kick a million people off benefits.

The WCA e.g. is based on the PCA, but with the removal of various descriptors making it harder to score points, only certain descriptors grant SG regardless of points scored, and certain descriptors have them pretending fictional situations for the claimant.  A clear blatant attempt to simply cut numbers.

However PIP is somewhat different, the mobility side is a clear cost cutting change, the government did openly admit to this.  However the daily living side is a change of focus on where the help is targeted at,  Very different descriptors to what DLA was and is not a basic rebrand,

There is people like me who wouldnt qualify for DLA but do for PIP.

PIP was introduced by the government to replace DLA, which is why those of us who had to struggle to get DLA based on our clinically diagnosed disabilities which can be life long disabilities, have now go through the whole process again using the new government based terminology to explain the nature and problems our disabilities cause of a day to day basis. Pure political disability discrimination, not based on any real understanding of the types of disabilities some may have to live with on a day to day basis. 

dolfrog

poppy123456 said:

This is where alot of people don't understand PIP. I'm afraid you are not correct here. PIP replaced DLA yes but that's where it ends. They are different benefits with different criteria. The only benefit award that will ever say indefinite was DLA.

PIP, UC, ESA etc are not the same and there is no definite awards of either of them.

So the government is maninpulating the benefits system by not understanding clinically diagnosed disabilities so that they can employ untrained  and unqualified individuals who ate not qualified to understand the complexities of most disabilities to reduce the benefits bill so that they can reduce taxes. Pure corruption.

paffuto10

@dolfrog

And think of all the time and money spent on this ridiculous PIP! 

Assessors, DM'S, MR's,Tribunals, etc. 
Not to mention distress and even deaths to clients. 

All paid for with taxpayers money. 

Furthermore, at the risk of being too controversial, isn't this how the nazis started....with disabled people? 

Roddy

poppy123456 said:

Roddy said:

I know @cristobal, but that part of my point. PIP simply replaced DLA but it's more or less the same thing with the same criterion, and it's only difference is what it's now called. It shouldn't penalise or go back on previous DLA decisions, but it does.

This is where alot of people don't understand PIP. I'm afraid you are not correct here. PIP replaced DLA yes but that's where it ends. They are different benefits with different criteria. The only benefit award that will ever say indefinite was DLA.

PIP, UC, ESA etc are not the same and there is no definite awards of either of them.

As with like all others, you're entitled to your own opinion. UC controls the payments of ESA (though not its awards) and I'd wager my last $ that UC will also control PIP payments too. Maybe you could explain why it is then, that a persons unquestionable entitlement to DLA, has altered by the introduction to PIP? I agree that nobody can expect Benefit awards, or take them for granted. However, that there are hundreds of disabled people who have been wrongly assessed, is sacrosanct, no matter what you believe or your understanding of the benefit system/s. How on Earth, can person be fully eligible one day and then not the next, solely due to a change of DWP rules?  Disabled people cannot change THEIR rules, can they! 

WhileIBreathIHope

WhileIBreathIHope

May I also point out millions paid to Atos using Lima and then Maximus using Lima banned in US States.
it was never about modernisation, but cost cutting as the NHS Consultants and GP’s could well do the job far better than a BS health care professionals.

Roddy

poppy123456

Roddy said:

poppy123456 said:

Roddy said:

I know @cristobal, but that part of my point. PIP simply replaced DLA but it's more or less the same thing with the same criterion, and it's only difference is what it's now called. It shouldn't penalise or go back on previous DLA decisions, but it does.

This is where alot of people don't understand PIP. I'm afraid you are not correct here. PIP replaced DLA yes but that's where it ends. They are different benefits with different criteria. The only benefit award that will ever say indefinite was DLA.

PIP, UC, ESA etc are not the same and there is no definite awards of either of them.

As with like all others, you're entitled to your own opinion. UC controls the payments of ESA (though not its awards) and I'd wager my last $ that UC will also control PIP payments too. Maybe you could explain why it is then, that a persons unquestionable entitlement to DLA, has altered by the introduction to PIP? I agree that nobody can expect Benefit awards, or take them for granted. However, that there are hundreds of disabled people who have been wrongly assessed, is sacrosanct, no matter what you believe or your understanding of the benefit system/s. How on Earth, can person be fully eligible one day and then not the next, solely due to a change of DWP rules?  Disabled people cannot change THEIR rules, can they! 

Your understanding is totally incorrect, sorry. UC isn't ESA, it's a different benefit. UC will never control PIP because UC is a means tested benefit and PIP isn't means tested so i'm unsure why you think UC would control PIP.

I've given you my answers a few times on this thread so i won't reply to you any further but i wish you  a good night, what's left it.

paffuto10

I think the problem here is that many of us (myself included) just can't accept the devastating difference between DLA and PIP. 

I feel that @poppy123456 doesn't necessarily agree with the changes but is simply trying to help people attain the benefits, in this very bad system. 

She does this every day, pointing out what we actually need to do.
She's helped me understand the system much more. 

There's absolutely nothing we can do about it, so let's listen to poppy who knows how we can actually navigate this new system. 

poppy123456

dolfrog said:

poppy123456 said:

This is where alot of people don't understand PIP. I'm afraid you are not correct here. PIP replaced DLA yes but that's where it ends. They are different benefits with different criteria. The only benefit award that will ever say indefinite was DLA.

PIP, UC, ESA etc are not the same and there is no definite awards of either of them.

So the government is maninpulating the benefits system by not understanding clinically diagnosed disabilities so that they can employ untrained  and unqualified individuals who ate not qualified to understand the complexities of most disabilities to reduce the benefits bill so that they can reduce taxes. Pure corruption.

PIP isn't about a diagnosis, it's how those conditions affect your ability to carry out daily activity based on the PIP descriptors. As everyone is affected differently by these conditions and you never have 2 people the same then it's the claimants responsibility to tell them exactly how their conditions affect them.

Having some understanding of PIP and the work capability assessment definitely helps. Spending some time to do some research would be helpful to everyone.

I'm not getting into a debate with anyone here, which is why i won't be responding to anymore of your replies here on this thread.

Sleep well and goodnight.

Roddy

poppy123456 said:

Roddy said:

poppy123456 said:

Roddy said:

I know @cristobal, but that part of my point. PIP simply replaced DLA but it's more or less the same thing with the same criterion, and it's only difference is what it's now called. It shouldn't penalise or go back on previous DLA decisions, but it does.

This is where alot of people don't understand PIP. I'm afraid you are not correct here. PIP replaced DLA yes but that's where it ends. They are different benefits with different criteria. The only benefit award that will ever say indefinite was DLA.

PIP, UC, ESA etc are not the same and there is no definite awards of either of them.

As with like all others, you're entitled to your own opinion. UC controls the payments of ESA (though not its awards) and I'd wager my last $ that UC will also control PIP payments too. Maybe you could explain why it is then, that a persons unquestionable entitlement to DLA, has altered by the introduction to PIP? I agree that nobody can expect Benefit awards, or take them for granted. However, that there are hundreds of disabled people who have been wrongly assessed, is sacrosanct, no matter what you believe or your understanding of the benefit system/s. How on Earth, can person be fully eligible one day and then not the next, solely due to a change of DWP rules?  Disabled people cannot change THEIR rules, can they! 

Your understanding is totally incorrect, sorry. UC isn't ESA, it's a different benefit. UC will never control PIP because UC is a means tested benefit and PIP isn't means tested so i'm unsure why you think UC would control PIP.

I've given you my answers a few times on this thread so i won't reply to you any further but i wish you  a good night, what's left it.

I never said that UC is ESA!  UC most certainly pays me my ESA, and it is UC that decides when each month I am to receive ESA and so therefore they are in control of when I get paid.  It is plain as anything that the DWP wants/needs to save money, and by merging benefit payments under the one umbrella (UC) they can perhaps achieve that via administration costs, but it doesn't make it right, does it? A work coach at a Jobcentre, should have nothing to do with ESA if one is deemed unable to work. One gets assessed for PIP. One gets assessed for ESA, and BOTH assessment offices and it's assessing personnel are situated in the very same building, and then in turn by the DWP.  Whether or not either is means tested, they are both governed by the same body. 

Thank you for your answers, but I'm sorry because in this instance they mean zilch to me. 

paffuto10

Goodnight @poppy123456 

WhileIBreathIHope

paffuto10 said:

I think the problem here is that many of us (myself included) just can't accept the devastating difference between DLA and PIP. 

I feel that @poppy123456 doesn't necessarily agree with the changes but is simply trying to help people attain the benefits, in this very bad system. 

She does this every day, pointing out what we actually need to do.
She's helped me understand the system much more. 

There's absolutely nothing we can do about it, so let's listen to poppy who knows how we can actually navigate this new system. 

Get an independent advocate 
get your forms filled in by key worker, social worker etc.
expect a tribunal
expect to get fastened down like a wood screw

your delusional if you believe the system is accidentally deficient or playing by the rules will get a fair outcome.

Your not special to DWP and in fact if you ended up at a food bank or dead- the DWP will see as a positive outcome having lived through this personally the DWP will abuse the terminally ill.

So don’t dress it up as a failure of protocol as even the UN recognised this as ABUSE.

(edited by moderator)

I had MP intervention and still ultimately got turned over, claiming this is a navigational path change is offensive and condones the stunt being pulled where people have died as a result.

poppy123456

@Roddy if you're claiming Contributions based ESA and UC then yes your ESA is deducted £1 for £1 from you UC payments, this is because UC is means tested.

If you're not claiming Contributions based ESA then you're claiming UC and not income related ESA because you can't claim both.

PIP assessments and work capability assessments are done by different health assessment providers and they take place in different buildings. Independent assessment services and capita do PIP assessments and health assessment advisory service do the work capability assessment.

WhileIBreathIHope

poppy123456 said:

@Roddy if you're claiming Contributions based ESA and UC then yes your ESA is deducted £1 for £1 from you UC payments, this is because UC is means tested.

If you're not claiming Contributions based ESA then you're claiming UC and not income related ESA because you can't claim both.

PIP assessments and work capability assessments are done by different health assessment providers and they take place in different buildings. Independent assessment services and capita do PIP assessments and health assessment advisory service do the work capability assessment.

Both for profit private companies

paffuto10

@WhileIBreathIHope

I'm not being offensive and I resent that remark. 

I'm simply saying that they've put us all on this different path. 
There is absolutely nothing we can do about it because that's how this country is today. 

So to have any chance whatsoever of getting PIP,  we should listen to advice like poppy's.

It's a battle. Some will win, probably many will lose (even with poppy's or anyone else's advice).