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when is somebody in power going to listen?

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Comments

  • worried33
    worried33 Community member Posts: 492 Pioneering
    Try not to make this an anti tory issue, one could easily point out that labour introduced ESA and the WCA and made public claims it was done to kick a million people off benefits.

    The WCA e.g. is based on the PCA, but with the removal of various descriptors making it harder to score points, only certain descriptors grant SG regardless of points scored, and certain descriptors have them pretending fictional situations for the claimant.  A clear blatant attempt to simply cut numbers.

    However PIP is somewhat different, the mobility side is a clear cost cutting change, the government did openly admit to this.  However the daily living side is a change of focus on where the help is targeted at,  Very different descriptors to what DLA was and is not a basic rebrand,

    There is people like me who wouldnt qualify for DLA but do for PIP.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 231 Pioneering
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • Roddy
    Roddy Community member Posts: 445 Pioneering
    worried33 said:
    Try not to make this an anti tory issue, one could easily point out that labour introduced ESA and the WCA and made public claims it was done to kick a million people off benefits.

    The WCA e.g. is based on the PCA, but with the removal of various descriptors making it harder to score points, only certain descriptors grant SG regardless of points scored, and certain descriptors have them pretending fictional situations for the claimant.  A clear blatant attempt to simply cut numbers.

    However PIP is somewhat different, the mobility side is a clear cost cutting change, the government did openly admit to this.  However the daily living side is a change of focus on where the help is targeted at,  Very different descriptors to what DLA was and is not a basic rebrand,

    There is people like me who wouldnt qualify for DLA but do for PIP.
    Well, nobody else is responsible for it... Labour, are not in government. 
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,357 Disability Gamechanger
    Roddy said:

    I know @cristobal, but that part of my point. PIP simply replaced DLA but it's more or less the same thing with the same criterion, and it's only difference is what it's now called. It shouldn't penalise or go back on previous DLA decisions, but it does.
    This is where alot of people don't understand PIP. I'm afraid you are not correct here. PIP replaced DLA yes but that's where it ends. They are different benefits with different criteria. The only benefit award that will ever say indefinite was DLA.

    PIP, UC, ESA etc are not the same and there is no definite awards of either of them.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • dolfrog
    dolfrog Community member Posts: 441 Pioneering
    edited October 2019
    worried33 said:
    Try not to make this an anti tory issue, one could easily point out that labour introduced ESA and the WCA and made public claims it was done to kick a million people off benefits.

    The WCA e.g. is based on the PCA, but with the removal of various descriptors making it harder to score points, only certain descriptors grant SG regardless of points scored, and certain descriptors have them pretending fictional situations for the claimant.  A clear blatant attempt to simply cut numbers.

    However PIP is somewhat different, the mobility side is a clear cost cutting change, the government did openly admit to this.  However the daily living side is a change of focus on where the help is targeted at,  Very different descriptors to what DLA was and is not a basic rebrand,

    There is people like me who wouldnt qualify for DLA but do for PIP.
    PIP was introduced by the government to replace DLA, which is why those of us who had to struggle to get DLA based on our clinically diagnosed disabilities which can be life long disabilities, have now go through the whole process again using the new government based terminology to explain the nature and problems our disabilities cause of a day to day basis. Pure political disability discrimination, not based on any real understanding of the types of disabilities some may have to live with on a day to day basis. 
  • dolfrog
    dolfrog Community member Posts: 441 Pioneering
    This is where alot of people don't understand PIP. I'm afraid you are not correct here. PIP replaced DLA yes but that's where it ends. They are different benefits with different criteria. The only benefit award that will ever say indefinite was DLA.

    PIP, UC, ESA etc are not the same and there is no definite awards of either of them.
    So the government is maninpulating the benefits system by not understanding clinically diagnosed disabilities so that they can employ untrained  and unqualified individuals who ate not qualified to understand the complexities of most disabilities to reduce the benefits bill so that they can reduce taxes. Pure corruption.
  • paffuto10
    paffuto10 Community member Posts: 388 Pioneering
    @dolfrog

    And think of all the time and money spent on this ridiculous PIP! 

    Assessors, DM'S, MR's,Tribunals, etc. 
    Not to mention distress and even deaths to clients. 

    All paid for with taxpayers money. 

    Furthermore, at the risk of being too controversial, isn't this how the nazis started....with disabled people? 

  • Roddy
    Roddy Community member Posts: 445 Pioneering
    Roddy said:

    I know @cristobal, but that part of my point. PIP simply replaced DLA but it's more or less the same thing with the same criterion, and it's only difference is what it's now called. It shouldn't penalise or go back on previous DLA decisions, but it does.
    This is where alot of people don't understand PIP. I'm afraid you are not correct here. PIP replaced DLA yes but that's where it ends. They are different benefits with different criteria. The only benefit award that will ever say indefinite was DLA.

    PIP, UC, ESA etc are not the same and there is no definite awards of either of them.
    As with like all others, you're entitled to your own opinion. UC controls the payments of ESA (though not its awards) and I'd wager my last $ that UC will also control PIP payments too. Maybe you could explain why it is then, that a persons unquestionable entitlement to DLA, has altered by the introduction to PIP? I agree that nobody can expect Benefit awards, or take them for granted. However, that there are hundreds of disabled people who have been wrongly assessed, is sacrosanct, no matter what you believe or your understanding of the benefit system/s. How on Earth, can person be fully eligible one day and then not the next, solely due to a change of DWP rules?  Disabled people cannot change THEIR rules, can they! 
  • WhileIBreathIHope
    WhileIBreathIHope Posts: 216 Pioneering
    Roddy said:
    Ŵdolfrog said:
    Roddy said:
    As far as I'm concerned, all benefits ESA, UC, PIP etc. are awarded by the DWP, and since UC was introduced each benefit has been affected in terms of the assessment procedures. One only needs to see on here @cristobal, the amount of people that are now being almost discriminated against purely because they're disabled. Many disablities worsen, and yet the nurses who assess such people have blinkered attitudes and their decisions are affecting the lives of many.
    Such is the corrupt nature of the current government, manipulating the DWP, and the various benefits in the hope that the disabled will go away so that they can make more money by paying less taxes. It is political disability discrimination, 

    If I have learned one thing about the DWP under this presnt government, then it's they cannot be trusted, relied or depended upon and even thier forms & doccuments are full of 'tricks' 'lies' and 'false promises,' Not to mention the apes that work at the DWP. The benefit system today, has been designed for just one thing: To save money to the detriment of every claimant. The Tories, couldn't run a hot bath, and they most cannot don't have the capability (or the Heart)  to run the DWP. 
    Austerity cured me of a life long condition diagnosed as a young child.
    Austerity took away a care plan and direct payments set up on my behalf many years ago as now CURED

    welded to a loo unstable on my feet and MP intervention didn’t stop the DWP, To them I was just a number to be cut. When the MP takes weeks to unwind a block on any payments and the DWP pulled the same stunt again.

    I grew up with values of kindness, honesty and integrity- now I’m ruthless to survive and suspicious of anyone knowing my disabilities as a weapon against me.

    I hate the DWP that much my next meeting with them I will kick off as it is a sham.


  • WhileIBreathIHope
    WhileIBreathIHope Posts: 216 Pioneering
    May I also point out millions paid to Atos using Lima and then Maximus using Lima banned in US States.
    it was never about modernisation, but cost cutting as the NHS Consultants and GP’s could well do the job far better than a BS health care professionals.
  • Roddy
    Roddy Community member Posts: 445 Pioneering
    Roddy said:
    Ŵdolfrog said:
    Roddy said:
    As far as I'm concerned, all benefits ESA, UC, PIP etc. are awarded by the DWP, and since UC was introduced each benefit has been affected in terms of the assessment procedures. One only needs to see on here @cristobal, the amount of people that are now being almost discriminated against purely because they're disabled. Many disablities worsen, and yet the nurses who assess such people have blinkered attitudes and their decisions are affecting the lives of many.
    Such is the corrupt nature of the current government, manipulating the DWP, and the various benefits in the hope that the disabled will go away so that they can make more money by paying less taxes. It is political disability discrimination, 

    If I have learned one thing about the DWP under this presnt government, then it's they cannot be trusted, relied or depended upon and even thier forms & doccuments are full of 'tricks' 'lies' and 'false promises,' Not to mention the apes that work at the DWP. The benefit system today, has been designed for just one thing: To save money to the detriment of every claimant. The Tories, couldn't run a hot bath, and they most cannot don't have the capability (or the Heart)  to run the DWP. 
    Austerity cured me of a life long condition diagnosed as a young child.
    Austerity took away a care plan and direct payments set up on my behalf many years ago as now CURED

    welded to a loo unstable on my feet and MP intervention didn’t stop the DWP, To them I was just a number to be cut. When the MP takes weeks to unwind a block on any payments and the DWP pulled the same stunt again.

    I grew up with values of kindness, honesty and integrity- now I’m ruthless to survive and suspicious of anyone knowing my disabilities as a weapon against me.

    I hate the DWP that much my next meeting with them I will kick off as it is a sham.


    Practically every disabled person I personally know has been affected by current day DWP benefits, and any disbeliever should actually SEE these people and the way that they have been reduced and mistreated to the extent of being suicidal. It is no laughing matter. Seriously sick and disabled people are suffering each and every day, due to the 'experience' of a nurse and a DWP decision, many of which are overruled once it goes court. It shouldn't even reach that stage, should it? Months of totally unethical suffering, just to save money for hell knows what. 
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,357 Disability Gamechanger
    Roddy said:
    Roddy said:

    I know @cristobal, but that part of my point. PIP simply replaced DLA but it's more or less the same thing with the same criterion, and it's only difference is what it's now called. It shouldn't penalise or go back on previous DLA decisions, but it does.
    This is where alot of people don't understand PIP. I'm afraid you are not correct here. PIP replaced DLA yes but that's where it ends. They are different benefits with different criteria. The only benefit award that will ever say indefinite was DLA.

    PIP, UC, ESA etc are not the same and there is no definite awards of either of them.
    As with like all others, you're entitled to your own opinion. UC controls the payments of ESA (though not its awards) and I'd wager my last $ that UC will also control PIP payments too. Maybe you could explain why it is then, that a persons unquestionable entitlement to DLA, has altered by the introduction to PIP? I agree that nobody can expect Benefit awards, or take them for granted. However, that there are hundreds of disabled people who have been wrongly assessed, is sacrosanct, no matter what you believe or your understanding of the benefit system/s. How on Earth, can person be fully eligible one day and then not the next, solely due to a change of DWP rules?  Disabled people cannot change THEIR rules, can they! 
    Your understanding is totally incorrect, sorry. UC isn't ESA, it's a different benefit. UC will never control PIP because UC is a means tested benefit and PIP isn't means tested so i'm unsure why you think UC would control PIP.

    I've given you my answers a few times on this thread so i won't reply to you any further but i wish you  a good night, what's left it.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,357 Disability Gamechanger
    dolfrog said:
    This is where alot of people don't understand PIP. I'm afraid you are not correct here. PIP replaced DLA yes but that's where it ends. They are different benefits with different criteria. The only benefit award that will ever say indefinite was DLA.

    PIP, UC, ESA etc are not the same and there is no definite awards of either of them.
    So the government is maninpulating the benefits system by not understanding clinically diagnosed disabilities so that they can employ untrained  and unqualified individuals who ate not qualified to understand the complexities of most disabilities to reduce the benefits bill so that they can reduce taxes. Pure corruption.
    PIP isn't about a diagnosis, it's how those conditions affect your ability to carry out daily activity based on the PIP descriptors. As everyone is affected differently by these conditions and you never have 2 people the same then it's the claimants responsibility to tell them exactly how their conditions affect them.

    Having some understanding of PIP and the work capability assessment definitely helps. Spending some time to do some research would be helpful to everyone.

    I'm not getting into a debate with anyone here, which is why i won't be responding to anymore of your replies here on this thread.

    Sleep well and goodnight.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • Roddy
    Roddy Community member Posts: 445 Pioneering
    edited October 2019
    Roddy said:
    Roddy said:

    I know @cristobal, but that part of my point. PIP simply replaced DLA but it's more or less the same thing with the same criterion, and it's only difference is what it's now called. It shouldn't penalise or go back on previous DLA decisions, but it does.
    This is where alot of people don't understand PIP. I'm afraid you are not correct here. PIP replaced DLA yes but that's where it ends. They are different benefits with different criteria. The only benefit award that will ever say indefinite was DLA.

    PIP, UC, ESA etc are not the same and there is no definite awards of either of them.
    As with like all others, you're entitled to your own opinion. UC controls the payments of ESA (though not its awards) and I'd wager my last $ that UC will also control PIP payments too. Maybe you could explain why it is then, that a persons unquestionable entitlement to DLA, has altered by the introduction to PIP? I agree that nobody can expect Benefit awards, or take them for granted. However, that there are hundreds of disabled people who have been wrongly assessed, is sacrosanct, no matter what you believe or your understanding of the benefit system/s. How on Earth, can person be fully eligible one day and then not the next, solely due to a change of DWP rules?  Disabled people cannot change THEIR rules, can they! 
    Your understanding is totally incorrect, sorry. UC isn't ESA, it's a different benefit. UC will never control PIP because UC is a means tested benefit and PIP isn't means tested so i'm unsure why you think UC would control PIP.

    I've given you my answers a few times on this thread so i won't reply to you any further but i wish you  a good night, what's left it.
    I never said that UC is ESA!  UC most certainly pays me my ESA, and it is UC that decides when each month I am to receive ESA and so therefore they are in control of when I get paid.  It is plain as anything that the DWP wants/needs to save money, and by merging benefit payments under the one umbrella (UC) they can perhaps achieve that via administration costs, but it doesn't make it right, does it? A work coach at a Jobcentre, should have nothing to do with ESA if one is deemed unable to work. One gets assessed for PIP. One gets assessed for ESA, and BOTH assessment offices and it's assessing personnel are situated in the very same building, and then in turn by the DWP.  Whether or not either is means tested, they are both governed by the same body. 

    Thank you for your answers, but I'm sorry because in this instance they mean zilch to me. 
  • paffuto10
    paffuto10 Community member Posts: 388 Pioneering
  • WhileIBreathIHope
    WhileIBreathIHope Posts: 216 Pioneering
    edited October 2019
    paffuto10 said:
    I think the problem here is that many of us (myself included) just can't accept the devastating difference between DLA and PIP. 

    I feel that @poppy123456 doesn't necessarily agree with the changes but is simply trying to help people attain the benefits, in this very bad system. 

    She does this every day, pointing out what we actually need to do.
    She's helped me understand the system much more. 

    There's absolutely nothing we can do about it, so let's listen to poppy who knows how we can actually navigate this new system. 


    Get an independent advocate 
    get your forms filled in by key worker, social worker etc.
    expect a tribunal
    expect to get fastened down like a wood screw

    your delusional if you believe the system is accidentally deficient or playing by the rules will get a fair outcome.

    Your not special to DWP and in fact if you ended up at a food bank or dead- the DWP will see as a positive outcome having lived through this personally the DWP will abuse the terminally ill.

    So don’t dress it up as a failure of protocol as even the UN recognised this as ABUSE.

    (edited by moderator)

    I had MP intervention and still ultimately got turned over, claiming this is a navigational path change is offensive and condones the stunt being pulled where people have died as a result.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 53,357 Disability Gamechanger
    @Roddy if you're claiming Contributions based ESA and UC then yes your ESA is deducted £1 for £1 from you UC payments, this is because UC is means tested.

    If you're not claiming Contributions based ESA then you're claiming UC and not income related ESA because you can't claim both.

    PIP assessments and work capability assessments are done by different health assessment providers and they take place in different buildings. Independent assessment services and capita do PIP assessments and health assessment advisory service do the work capability assessment.
    I would appreciate it if members wouldn't tag me please. I have all notifcations turned off and wouldn't want a member thinking i'm being rude by not replying.
    If i see a question that i know the answer to i will try my best to help.
  • WhileIBreathIHope
    WhileIBreathIHope Posts: 216 Pioneering
    @Roddy if you're claiming Contributions based ESA and UC then yes your ESA is deducted £1 for £1 from you UC payments, this is because UC is means tested.

    If you're not claiming Contributions based ESA then you're claiming UC and not income related ESA because you can't claim both.

    PIP assessments and work capability assessments are done by different health assessment providers and they take place in different buildings. Independent assessment services and capita do PIP assessments and health assessment advisory service do the work capability assessment.
    Both for profit private companies
  • paffuto10
    paffuto10 Community member Posts: 388 Pioneering
    edited October 2019
    @WhileIBreathIHope

    I'm not being offensive and I resent that remark. 

    I'm simply saying that they've put us all on this different path. 
    There is absolutely nothing we can do about it because that's how this country is today. 

    So to have any chance whatsoever of getting PIP,  we should listen to advice like poppy's.

    It's a battle. Some will win, probably many will lose (even with poppy's or anyone else's advice).
This discussion has been closed.

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