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Re: PIP MR

sceneparade
sceneparade Member Posts: 87 Connected
So, yesterday I received my MR letter. Originally they rejected my claim for PIP, but the MR letter stated they will pay me the higher rate care component but no mobility component. 

As a result of my condition, I feel I would received lower rate mobility, as I did when on DLA. The reason they gave for declining my application for mobility was because I have a driving licence. However, this argument makes no sense, because people with physical disabilities have a driving licence. My disability would meet the criteria of lower mobility due to anxiety and need for support wherever I go, or whenever I leave the house. 

I would like peoples advice on this. 

In addition, does the tribunal require evidence from me and the DWP to make a decision, or do they search for the evidence themselves, i.e. do they contact my GP, doctors, DWP, ESA, DVLA etc. 

Comments

  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,910 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi,

    Great news on the MR decision changing.

    Whether you request the Tribunal is your decision but i'd advise you getting some face to face advice before you request it. It's impossible to give advice on an internet forum, whether you'll be entitled to any mobility will depend on the reasons why you need support when you go out.

    It's the claimant responsibility to send evidence to support your claim and the Tribunal will rarely request any medical evidence. If it's needed they sometimes ask you to get medical records from certain dates.

    Real life examples are good for your submission if you do request the Tribunal. Explain why you need support when you go out and what happened or would happen if you went out alone, or what happened the last time you went alone. As advised, it really depends how your conditions affect you.
  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    edited October 2019
    @sceneparade - does the letter actually say that they have refused your mobility claim because you have a driving licence?

    Seems very strange doesn't it, since driving isn't one of the things that is considered under mobility?

    Also it doesn't mean that you actually drive - just that you're licensed to do so...



  • OverlyAnxious
    OverlyAnxious Member Posts: 1,659 Disability Gamechanger
    cristobal said:
    @sceneparade - does the letter actually say that they have refused your mobility claim because you have a driving licence?

    Seems very strange doesn't it, since driving isn't one of the things that is considered under mobility?

    Also it doesn't mean that you actually drive does it, just that you're licensed to do so...



    I think this is a new DWP standard to get out of paying mobility for mental issues...  My MR said exactly the same thing regarding a driving licence.  What's odd is that I didn't challenge or even mention the mobility side in my MR as I knew I had no chance of getting it with the type of problems I have.  (I don't fit into their perfect descriptors)

    They're just trying to prove that you have the cognitive ability to process the outside world without any assistance, but it doesn't make much sense.  I got my licence 10 years ago and have never been 'checked' since...I doubt I'd pass a test today...  In fact I wouldn't even cope with having the tester as a passenger!! :D
  • sceneparade
    sceneparade Member Posts: 87 Connected
    edited October 2019
    Hi @cristobal

    The letter stated that I am vulnerable when out alone and would need social support. She said that because I knew how to use Google Maps I can find my way around places, and therefore plan a route unaided and that I know how to cross the road. This is all nonsense, because the letter sent in by my doctor sates I am a safety risk to myself and others, and it also stated I have been knocked down as a result of my condition and not knowing how to cross the road. So I am not sure how they put I can cross the road safely when the medical records says otherwise. 

    The part about driving licence said this "The activity of driving a car is in itself a multitask activity requiring significant physical function in terms of grip, power and lower joint movements in conjunction with substantial cognitive powers of thought, perception, memory, reasoning, concentration, judgement and coordination. Although there is a consistent restriction in motivation to undertake tasks, all the evidence presented suggests that you can manage this independently and you know how to use maps". 

    All the above is inconsistent. Because they agree I can't cook food for myself due to safety issues, that being outside by myself I would be taken advantage of and be vulnerable. This, together with being knocked down, as reaffirmed by medical records, and together with anxiety, would make driving impossible alone.It doesn't make sense. The report is very contradictory. 
  • sceneparade
    sceneparade Member Posts: 87 Connected
    Hi @OverlyAnxious

    I agree. I licence means nothing. Medical records state safety risk, vulnerable person, taken advantage of etc. I took my test 12 years ago, but would struggle now. I am now a passenger in cars, as I would struggle. 

    The Google Maps thing is odd. I have a report that states I was unable to understand the pictures on a puzzle (I didn't see the picture was a bat). So if I cannot pick out pictures on puzzles I wouldn't be able to read a Google Map. - it makes no sense. I might be able to access it, but not use it. It states I know how to cross the road. It sounds like they haven't properly read the report from the doctors. Because they stated I have been involved in car accidents as a result of not knowing how to cross the road. A report states I don't make eye contact, which was undertaken by expert doctors in their field. Yet the DWP report basically said the doctors didn't know what they were doing because I was fine. Again, no sense. 
  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    edited October 2019
    The part about driving licence said this "The activity of driving a car is in itself a multitask activity requiring significant physical function in terms of grip, power and lower joint movements in conjunction with substantial cognitive powers of thought, perception, memory, reasoning, concentration, judgement and coordination. Although there is a consistent restriction in motivation to undertake tasks, all the evidence presented suggests that you can manage this independently and you know how to use maps". 

    @sceneparade - the quote doesn't mention driving licence, it's about the skills and function needed to drive a car...

    Personally if you don't drive, and the DWP are assuming that you do because you have a licence, then I would point this out to them...

    Good luck anyway...
  • sceneparade
    sceneparade Member Posts: 87 Connected
    Thanks @cristobal

    Does this mean I have to prove I don't drive? Or do I just let the tribunal chase it up via DVLA? I am not sure how it works.


  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    edited October 2019
    @sceneparade - sorry, I'm not sure...but it's for you to send the evidence to the tribunal

    Personally I'd write a letter to the DWP pointing out that you don't drive, don't own a car, aren't an insured driver on anyone else's car etc and when you last drove and that to assume that you do is wrong. I don't think they have to take it into account but I don't think it will harm...

    As Poppy said i think I would get F2f advice locally as well...
  • OverlyAnxious
    OverlyAnxious Member Posts: 1,659 Disability Gamechanger
    Reading your posts so far it sounds like you should receive higher rate mobility - as in can't undertake any journey without assistance?  Lower mobility is about £20 a week, so might not be worth the hassle and risk of losing the daily living that you now have.

    If you go to tribunal, you should focus on the problems you have with the descriptor (as Poppy stated above) rather than focussing on the driving licence.  I think it really is just a tick box within the assessment, that if you're claiming for mental health then they'll check to see if you've got a licence, I doubt it'll even be mentioned at tribunal, but if it is you can just explain that you passed a while ago and no longer drive - and give the reasons for that.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,910 Disability Gamechanger
    Thanks @cristobal

    Does this mean I have to prove I don't drive? Or do I just let the tribunal chase it up via DVLA? I am not sure how it works.


    It's very unlikely that DVLA will be contacted by anyone. Having a driving license doesn't mean you drive. It will be up to you to prove that you're unable to go out alone and for what reasons. Sounds like you already sent evidence stating why and what would happen if you did.

    There's no risk in taking it to Tribunal because if they planned on lowering your existing award then they would warn you before doing this. This will then give you the option of either taking what you already have or risking it and carry on with the Tribunal.
  • Willwill
    Willwill Member Posts: 67 Courageous
    Strange I no longer drive .I do not have a car ,I use taxi to my doctors  which my mobility allowance is a help for this I also pay a little for petrol for my daughter to assist me in transport , I thought  getting about is how you get mobility allowance in how daily life is  for you  without it !! I think this is DWP auditor (manager) in your area of DWP....  Going off subject the Auditor stated in my case on paper on my  MR that " I do not take any medication for my anxiety ""

    yet they had medical evidence of this 

    anyway "you do not need a licence to be passenger"" you need mobility allowance to help you  for mobility ,,
    saying that you can get a car on mobility and have 3 named driver on the lease  to transport you

    All the best 
    regards Will   
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 587 Listener
    edited October 2019
    Hi, please try and get face to face advice and help with this. 

    I'm going through something myself where the assessor removed or changed any points that indicates that I have mental health problems when nothing has changed since my first assessment my case is a bit weird though and I have posted about it somewhere else so I won't go into it. I've just done an MR with the help of Welfare Rights.

    Good luck with it all.
  • sceneparade
    sceneparade Member Posts: 87 Connected
    @OverlyAnxious

    Just clarification on this: "I think it really is just a tick box within the assessment, that if you're claiming for mental health then they'll check to see if you've got a licence, I doubt it'll even be mentioned at tribunal, but if it is you can just explain that you passed a while ago and no longer drive - and give the reasons for that." 

    Are you saying the DWP check that I have a licence with the DWP? But as you said: it proves I no longer drive
  • sceneparade
    sceneparade Member Posts: 87 Connected
    edited October 2019
    @poppy123456

    I have applied to a tribunal, but I stated I wanted to appeal the mobility component only. Is this correct? I haven't asked for the tribunal to look at my care component. 

    And they haven't warned me about lowering my higher rate care component. They just told me that if I am unhappy I can proceed to a tribunal. There was no threats of reducing my rate of care component. 
  • sceneparade
    sceneparade Member Posts: 87 Connected
    @WF2k

    I agree, By their own descriptors I should have scored about 30 points. But they gave me 17. I won't complain because it's still higher rate care component. But I agree they don't even follow their own descriptors. I got a letter stating I can't go out by myself and that I am a safety risk. Therefore I would meet one of the mobility descriptors. However, they said I met none. 
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,910 Disability Gamechanger
    @poppy123456

    I have applied to a tribunal, but I stated I wanted to appeal the mobility component only. Is this correct? I haven't asked for the tribunal to look at my care component. 

    And they haven't warned me about lowering my higher rate care component. They just told me that if I am unhappy I can proceed to a tribunal. There was no threats of reducing my rate of care component. 
    Yes, you can state which you disagree with.

    If they plan on lowering an existing award they won't warn you now, as you've only just received the MR decision you must have only requested the Tribunal today. The warning will come at a much later date, either by letter before a hearing or on the day of the hearing. If it's the day of the hearing then it will be adjourned for you to decide what you want to do.
  • sceneparade
    sceneparade Member Posts: 87 Connected
    @poppy123456

    Okay thanks. 

    Ae they likely to lower my award if I have submitted a lot of medical records to support my claim?What would be the point if they knew I had medical evidence. Thats why they changed it to higher rate, because of the medical evidence. 
  • sceneparade
    sceneparade Member Posts: 87 Connected
    @poppy123456 @cristobal @OverlyAnxious @WF2k

    If anyone could advise me on whether this would meet the mobility component of assessment. Because from what people have advised me, I should meet it. These are extracts from my letter from my doctor to the DWP, which, as a result, changed my award to higher rate care component. 

    This is what the doctor put: 

    "As a result of Autism, he finds it difficult to engage with others. This is because it makes him stressed and depressed that he cannot function. This is exemplified in the case where we took him shopping, and whilst on his ipodtouch, a member of the public asked if he could use his ipodtouch. Subsequently, X was deceived and he never saw it again. As a consequence of his difficulties with social interactions and communications, whereby he finds reading others hard, he was left stressed and depressed and would then self-harm.

    In addition, X can get anxious around people he doesn’t know, particularly in public where there are lots of people. To illustrate this further, he recently had to attend hospital with his brother due to renal colic. As a result of speaking to the doctor, he felt anxious and quickly left. Accordingly, he needs help and support from someone he knows well to be able to interact with people he doesn’t know well, or else he spends most of his time at home because he fears intimacy – as we have been informed by numerous psychiatrists - when engaging with people, which can stress him out. 

    What is more, as a result of his EUPD and his ASD he can become impulsive and irate, which he can act out on others. This alienates others and compounds his difficulties.  

    Moreover, as a result of difficulties interacting with others, it can lead to depression and anxiety, which results in self-harm.  On two occasions this has resulted in him being sectioned, once at Prospect Park psychiatric hospital and the other the Ladywell Unit at University Hospital Lewisham. Furthermore, his depression and difficulties when interacting with others has led to psychosis (hence psychosis-NOS)

    Moreover, he is too helpful and trusting of people and he gets taken advantage of. For instance, he bought a computer online and was told to make the transfer directly into the seller’s bank account, which he did. Subsequently, he never received the goods and never got his money back. This resulted in him loosing £450 and made him depressed and stressed. 

    Seven, the difficulties following an unfamiliar journey without assistance. 

    X struggles to follow the route of an unfamiliar journey without another person. For example, he had to attend the PIP assessment with a family member because he cannot work out how to get somewhere by himself. He checked online to find its location and he still got it wrong. This made him stressed. 

     In addition, he doesn’t like public transport. It makes him feel anxious around other people because of his fear of them. This in the past has resulted in paranoia and psychosis (hence Psychosis-NOS). 

    Furthermore, he needs someone with him when he is outside because he is too trusting. Without someone to help him, people take advantage of him."

  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,910 Disability Gamechanger
    @poppy123456

    Okay thanks. 

    Ae they likely to lower my award if I have submitted a lot of medical records to support my claim?What would be the point if they knew I had medical evidence. Thats why they changed it to higher rate, because of the medical evidence. 
    Totally impossible to answer that question im afraid.

    For the mobility part then you should concentrate on the reasons why you need someone with you when you go out and why you can't plan the route of a journey without another person.
  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    @sceneparade - I agree with Poppy - look at the descriptor for 'Planning and following journeys and concentrate on showing how you meet them. Give examples...

    I believe that a key thing is whether someone suffers Overwhelming Psychological Distress, rather than anxiety, so it might not be that helpful that your doctor has written things like 'he doesn't like public transport', 'he needs someone with him ...because he is too trusting'  - which don't support the mobility component. If you look back at your previous posts this was mentioned on there...

    Personally I would seek face to face advice near to you. A professional will be better able to advise how your doctor's comment are likely to be interpreted by a tribunal and whether to pursue it or not...




  • April2018mom
    April2018mom Posts: 2,869 Member
    Please get in touch with Citizen's Advice. They can help you contest the decision that was made. Or speak with a benefit advisor. 
  • OverlyAnxious
    OverlyAnxious Member Posts: 1,659 Disability Gamechanger
    @OverlyAnxious

    Just clarification on this: "I think it really is just a tick box within the assessment, that if you're claiming for mental health then they'll check to see if you've got a licence, I doubt it'll even be mentioned at tribunal, but if it is you can just explain that you passed a while ago and no longer drive - and give the reasons for that." 

    Are you saying the DWP check that I have a licence with the DWP? But as you said: it proves I no longer drive


    Maybe I've read too much into it, but my letter seems to suggest they did contact DVLA?  They don't take any evidence over 2 years old so I hope they haven't just assumed my 2009 test pass means I'm still fit to drive...?

    Also I agree with @cristobal, being trustworthy and experiencing anxiety aren't of any interest for PIP, you'll need to prove overwhelming psychological distress or a major safety issue.  Obviously getting hit by cars would count as a safety issue, but they will need to decide whether that risk is high enough and frequent enough to award you anything...
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,910 Disability Gamechanger
    It's highly unlikely they check anything with DVLA, they rarely contact medical professionals, so contacting DVLA is even less likely.

    The most likely explanation as to the reasons they know you have a license is because the claimant has mentioned something either in the PIP2 form or at the face to face assessment. You'll be very surprised the things we forget happened during the assessment. The general "chit chat" is their way of finding things out about you.

    As for evidence not being accepted if it's more than 2 years old is definitely not correct, despite them advising this on the PIP2 form forms.
  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    edited October 2019
    @OverlyAnxious

    DWP are assuming that you are fit to drive because you have a driving licence - I'm also doubtful that they would contact the DVLA (much simpler just to ask the claimant)

    I don't believe that there is any limit on how old evidence should be. (edit - just noticed that Poppy said this!!)

    Obviously more recent is better but most of the evidence that I sent was over five years old. This might be because my condition is degenerative and so a more recent report is not relevant...
  • OverlyAnxious
    OverlyAnxious Member Posts: 1,659 Disability Gamechanger
    cristobal said:
    @OverlyAnxious

    DWP are assuming that you are fit to drive because you have a driving licence - I'm also doubtful that they would contact the DVLA (much simpler just to ask the claimant)

    I don't believe that there is any limit on how old evidence should be. (edit - just noticed that Poppy said this!!)

    Obviously more recent is better but most of the evidence that I sent was over five years old. This might be because my condition is degenerative and so a more recent report is not relevant...
    Fair enough, that hasn't been my experience though.  It's written all over my assessment report, first decision form and MR that the only evidence I could provide is 3 years old so isn't relevant for proof of illness...  Yet they're happy to assume passing a driving test a some point in the past counts as proof of wellness...  :/  

    If they're not checking, they might also be surprised to learn that nearly a million people in the UK are currently driving without a licence...  I definitely wasn't asked if I have one or for how long, just if I drive a manual car...  This is what annoys me with the PIP assessment compared to the ESA assessment, all of the questions are obscure or leading to try and catch people out in the PIP assessment.  The ESA assessment was much more direct and fair in my opinion.

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