If I get turned down for PIP, could this affect my ESA claim? — Scope | Disability forum
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If I get turned down for PIP, could this affect my ESA claim?

Hi .  I have ESA with enhanced disability premium, which I won on appeal in a tribunal in 2016. 
Last year I was sent another ESA  assessment form, which I filled in with a supporting letter from my doctor . I sent it back and explained that  I was also waiting for other supporting letters from specialists .  My claim was continued as it is , before I sent in my supporting letters from the specialists , as  ESA with enhanced disability premium, but I was only given six months. 

My question is this : Now  I want to claim PIP .  But I have heard that PIP is hard to get awarded. 
If I get turned down for PIP , could the DWP  reduce my amount of ESA, or , even stop my ESA? 

As I’ve heard that the DWP is using the PIP claims to assess poeples ESA claims . 
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Comments

  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 28,608 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi,

    PIP and ESA are totally different benefits, with different criteria. Lots of people successfully claim PIP without any problems at all. If the worst happens and you are refused then it will have nothing to do with your ESA claim in a bad way.

    If you're sent another ESA for some time in the future then this is perfectly normal because they can reassess you anytime from 3 months.
  • janer1967
    janer1967 Member Posts: 15,292 Disability Gamechanger
    @tibetanbells Hello and welcome to the community , I just wanted to say hello. Im not in a position to answer your query but Im sure there are other people that will be able to
  • tibetanbells
    tibetanbells Member Posts: 17 Listener
    edited February 2020
    Thanks for your replies .  I also asked the ESA people on the phone and they told me it doesn’t make any difference , as they are different benefits.

    However, I have heard that the DWP are  now  using people’s PIP claims to analyse and reassess their claims of ESA. Are there no cases where they have lowered or stopped someone’s ESA when someone was turned down for PIP? 
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 28,608 Disability Gamechanger
    I'm not sure what you've read or heard but it's not correct because they are different benefits with different criteria as i advised. If someone's ESA was reassessed again when they've claimed PIP or started a claim for PIP then it will be nothing more than a total coincidence because for ESA you can be reassessed anytime from 3 months.

    If it's a review with an existing claim and they are refused then their ESA could be affected depending on what disability premiums they are claiming.
  • tibetanbells
    tibetanbells Member Posts: 17 Listener
    So you think it shouldn’t make a difference if it’s for a new claim for PIP ,  but , if someone is awarded PIP and then has a review of that claim , which alters their PIP claim, then their ESA could then be affected , lowered or stopped ? 
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 28,608 Disability Gamechanger
    Naturally, if it's a review and the PIP doesn't continue then this can affect any disability premiums they maybe claiming, so the ESA could be reduced BUT as i advised a few times the ESA won't completely stop because they are 2 different benefits with totally different criteria. What you've heard is incorrect.
  • tibetanbells
    tibetanbells Member Posts: 17 Listener
    edited February 2020
    Naturally, if it's a review and the PIP doesn't continue then this can affect any disability premiums they maybe claiming, so the ESA could be reduced BUT as i advised a few times the ESA won't completely stop because they are 2 different benefits with totally different criteria. What you've heard is incorrect.
    So , ESA  can be reduced , if someone’s PIP claim is reviewed. Presumably , one of the premiums could be taken away , or they could be taken out of the support group and put in the WRAG. 

    But what about if I was just turned down for the initial PIP claim , or even if I appealed that descision but lost the appeal ?   

    Could the DWP  remove my enhanced disability premium , if I was turned down for the initial PIP claim? 
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 28,608 Disability Gamechanger
    edited February 2020
    We seem to be going round in circles a little here. If someone's PIP is refused after a renewal then yes their ESA could be reduced depending on which premiums they are claiming.

    IF it's a first time PIP claim and you're refused then this doesn't affect your ESA, you won't be removed from the Support Group to the WRAG just because you were refused PIP.

    If you're in the Support Group then the Enhanced disability premium is automatically paid so no being refused PIP will not affect this.

    They could of course reassess you anytime from 3 months and if you are reassessed before, during or after a PIP claim then this will be a complete coincidence.

    Not sure what other advice you would like other than this and i hope this helps.
  • tibetanbells
    tibetanbells Member Posts: 17 Listener
    edited February 2020
    IF it's a first time PIP claim and you're refused then this doesn't affect your ESA, you won't be removed from the Support Group to the WRAG just because you were refused PIP. 

    If you're in the Support Group then the Enhanced disability premium is automatically paid so no being refused PIP will not affect this. “ 

    I see what you’re saying here .  You say that a first time claim for PIP would not affect someone’s current amount of ESA, including enhanced disability premium .
       
    However , it could potentially affect how much ESA , or the disability premium that you are awarded in the future.  

    Because , the DWP are using PIP claims to assess people’s ESA claims . This has worked to people’s advantage .  Some people who had been awarded ESA, but did not get the enhanced disability premium, or a severe disability  premium , were then awarded these premiums after they had successful claimed PIP . 

    However , I am wondering  if it could also work the other way round , if someone’s ESA claim was reviewed in the future , and PIP had been refused , then that could mean their disability premium could potentially be removed from their ESA. 

    Apparently , according  to what I’ve read on benefitsandwork site , the DWP are planning on combining the two assessments for PIP and ESA , at least the disability premiums aspect ? 
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 28,608 Disability Gamechanger
    DWP are not using ESA claims for PIP assessments. There was some talk about combining the 2 assessment together but it was just talk and there's no plans at all as yet to do this.

    Not sure what you mean by the disability premiums aspect because there's no assessment needed to be able to claim any disability premiums.

    You also said this .... However , I am wondering  if it could also work the other way round , if someone’s ESA claim was reviewed in the future , and PIP had been refused , then that could mean their disability premium could potentially be removed from their ESA.

    I've answered this question a few times and the answer is still the same, it's not going to change the answer regardless of how many different ways you ask the same question.

  • tibetanbells
    tibetanbells Member Posts: 17 Listener
    edited February 2020
    Well , on the other thread ,  https://community.scope.org.uk/discussion/44422/why-has-my-esa-benefit-reduced-after-my-pip-decision-is-suspended

    I read that an ESA claimant had lost their severe disability premium, (part of ESA) , after the DWP reassessed their claim, after being reviewed for PIP .  That is why   I am wondering , and asking , if this can happen , if people are losing their disability premiums after not  only PIP reviews , but also ESA reviews too as the premiums are linked in some way.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 28,608 Disability Gamechanger
    edited February 2020
    That was because their PIP claim stopped and they were claiming severe disability premium and to claim this then one of the criteria is PIP daily living so without a PIP award of at least daily living there's no entitlement to SDP.

    If someone's ESA stopped because they were found fit for work then of course the premiums would also stop because they were paid as part of the ESA.
  • tibetanbells
    tibetanbells Member Posts: 17 Listener

    I have read this from online from a help guide to claiming PIP: 

    “A government minister confirmed in November 2014 that ESA85 medical reports - the work capability assessment medical report that is created if you claim Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) – are being used to make decision about PIP.
    We have also heard from a number of Benefits and Work members who have been moved from the work-related activity group of ESA to the support group solely as a result of evidence gathered in the course of a PIP decision. So, it appears that both ESA and PIP reports are being used for purposes that they were not designed for.
    We have yet to see any guidance for decision makers on how to use ESA85s in relation to PIP, though we have asked if any exists, but it is a concern for a number of reasons.
    First, there are huge differences between the two tests, even when they are looking at similar activities.
    In addition, you may have successfully appealed against an ESA decision and the tribunal may have found that different descriptors applied to the ones in your ESA85.
    Alternatively, you may not have needed to appeal because you got sufficient points for ESA, but still consider that some of the descriptors you were awarded were incorrect...

    If you are claiming both ESA and PIP, it is worth taking into account that any evidence you give in relation to one benefit may be used in relation to the other and aiming to be as precise as possible.
    Given that the outcome can sometimes be positive – as with claimants being moved from the WRAG to the support group of ESA – you may even consider there is good reason to bear both sets of criteria in mind when filling in your PIP form in relation to some activities.
    Aside from that, there is probably little you can do except be prepared to challenge findings in your ESA medical report as well as your PIP assessment if you have to appeal a decision in relation to PIP.” 
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 28,608 Disability Gamechanger
    I've already answered your question. What you have read here is not related to the question you originally asked and i'm not sure exactly what other advice you're asking here.
  • tibetanbells
    tibetanbells Member Posts: 17 Listener
    You have given me your answers . But my question here is not just for you, it is for anyone with appropriate knowledge or experience to answer.  And it is a topic that should be discussed , that can be helpful for other people who are living  in poverty .

    I am barely surviving  on the amount I presently get, with the constant threat of having the amount slashed to £70 odd a week again .   People who cannot work and people with disabilities are being forced to live off tiny amounts thanks to government policies and they deserve the right facts to help them fight the system and get the support they are entitled to.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 28,608 Disability Gamechanger
    I do have the experience and knowledge to answer but I'm not even sure exactly what your question is.

    Yes, if you're claiming PIP then you can send your ESA award as evidence or if you're claiming ESA you can send your PIP award as evidence. Whether they will use those as evidence will totally depend on your reasons for claiming each of the benefits because the descriptors for both are different.

    PIP isn't about your ability to work and ESA is for those with a limited capability for work. Of course the evidence you used can also be used for a PIP claim and vise versa.

    If you think you're entitled to PIP then i'd advise you to start a claim but remember it's not awarded based on a diagnosis, it's how those conditions affect your ability to carry out daily activity based on the PIP descriptors. Evidence will be needed to support your claim and this should state how your conditions affect you.

    When you receive the forms you should fill them out with as much information as possible about how your conditions affect you. Then add a couple of real life examples of what happened the last time you attempted that activity for each descriptor that applies to you.
  • tibetanbells
    tibetanbells Member Posts: 17 Listener
    I know that they are different benefits , and what they apply for.  

    I think I have a chance of qualifying for PIP ,  but I won ESA on appeal . I failed the original ATOS medical .  I want to check that there is no chance of the DWP  , learning that I failed a PIP claim , and then deciding that I don’t  qaulify for enhanced disability premium and cutting my money back , on ESA as I explained before . 

    Although I have more support than I did when I failed the original medical, I have learned that the DWP  are using the  medical assessments of both benefits to assess what people are entitled too. You have already given me what you believe to be the case, that that will not happen .

    I hope you  are right .

    But there is a possibility that  someone else may have more information. 

  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 28,608 Disability Gamechanger
    You say you failed a PIP claim previously, is that correct? Or did you mean a work capability assessment? 

    The reason I know they don’t use a work capability assessment is because I claim both and have had 2 assessments for PIP and 3 for the work capability assessment and they have never used one for the other because as I advised they are completely different benefits. 

    Claiming ESA in the support group doesn’t automatically entitle you to claim PIP.

    You seem to be looking for reasons why you could lose your ESA award. The only way you would lose the enhanced disability premium is if you were placed into the WRAG or you were found fit for work. As you’re already in the support group this premium is automatically paid, when claiming income related ESA. For those in the WRAG they need to be claiming enhanced daily living PIP to be entitled to the enhanced disability premium in with their ESA.

    In my opinion you should concentrate on where and why you should score the points for a PIP award and not on your ESA award/claim. 

    If if you are sent another WCA form and it’s been more than 3 months since your last assessment then it will be nothing more than a coincidence.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 28,608 Disability Gamechanger
    For a better understanding of the PIP descriptors, what they mean and the criteria have a read of this before you start your claim. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria

  • tibetanbells
    tibetanbells Member Posts: 17 Listener
    You say you failed a PIP claim previously, is that correct? Or did you mean a work capability assessment? 


    The reason I know they don’t use a work capability assessment is because I claim both and have had 2 assessments for PIP and 3 for the work capability assessment and they have never used one for the other because as I advised they are completely different benefits. 


    You seem to be looking for reasons why you could lose your ESA award.
    Thanks for sharing that .  I have never tired to claim PIP before. 

    I failed the ATOS medical , work capability assessment for ESA  ( like a lot of other people ) .

    Had the descison overturned on Appeal.   

    I was awarded ESA for a year , and told it would be reviewed again after a year .

      I didn’t understand back then that you have to fill in the ESA50 form all over again when they sent the form out to me , over two years later . (A year late) .

    i was very concerned about losing my money again, as I could not survive again on £70 per week .  Someone on the phone (esa I think) suggested that I claim PIP , just in case . 

    As it happened, I had better support than before and my circumstances were unchanged , and I was given an extension of my ESA.  For now . 

    In the meantime at least I have some more support from specialists .

    Yes, I am concerned about losing ESA . Until I am able to work .   I think I may qaulify for PIP,  but if I don’t , I don’t want  that to affect my ESA claim, now or in the future .

    I already have a guide to filling in the PIP form .

    I have already explained that .

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