Face to face consultations - recording your interview

Shnagglepop

I am trying to help set up something to help people who wish to record their face to face interviews, i am aware that most interviews are currently taking place online or on the phone but i want to be set up and ready for when F2F becomes the norm again. I need to know what devices you are allowed to record on? I know it has to be cassette tape or CD but i need to know, can you record on two seperate devices or does it need to be a singular device that can record two tapes/CDs at the same time? Thankyou 

woodbine

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/418925/wca-audio-recording-policy-march_2015.pdf

Have a read of the above which covers it, note there is NO legal right to record the assessment, and request to do so are uncommon.
Also NO assessments have been done online during the pandemic.
Nice try though.

Shnagglepop

Thankyou I'll have a read though that is about ESA , i tried calling the PIP line and I was told by them that currently all assessments are done by phone or over webcam, which is why i wrote that. I still plan to try to set something up so that people can borrow the recording devices if they want to. I think it will be helpful as i was unaware i could even record until after my assessment so i hope to help people if I can. 

mikehughescq

I would also add that recording the assessment rarely happens because the HCP can simply refuse to consent. It also speaks to the wrong focus. Yes the DWP decision maker doesn't make a decision until they get the HCP report and yes they usually follow the HCP recommendations but that mostly results in awards. 

Where it doesn't result in an award you are off to MR, where your recording to be blunt, won't even get listened to as they most likely simply don't have the facilities. After that you're off to appeal. At the appeal stage evidence is (as often happens with DMs to be fair) considered in the round and very little time is spent on the HCP report as tribunals can quickly gauge the credibility of a report without any input from a claimant. You're effectively kicking at an open door and, to mix metaphors, using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

At all stages of the PIP process the key thing is not the HCP report but the level of detail and anecdote in the claim pack and the strength of supporting evidence and explanations. So, yes, if you fail to mention the reason you're not on meds is because all of them have disagreed with you, a HCP can conclude your ill health is probably not as serious as you assert and if they do that then that's on you for not thinking to plug that gap in your evidence by thinking to explain why no meds. It's not on a HCP. 

Your energy with PIP is always better addressed to the strength of your own case in the first instance rather than any perceived weakness in the HCP report. Those weaknesses often only exist because claimants don't know what it is they're claiming in the first place and can't see the gaping holes in their own case. 

johnnyy85

do you think recording puts pressure on the assesor ? 

Shnagglepop

No I just think that having evidence if you need a mandatory reconsideration is a good idea. I have heard from many sources that their award improved due to recording their assessment.

I want to help other people to have a fighting chance during their MR, when they can't afford the tape recorders and tapes etc 

poppy123456

HI,

Having had mutliple ESA and PIP assessments i'd prefer to concentrate on filling out my form with all the information, than think about recording the assessment. It's bad enough just thinking about the assessment on the day without having to worrying about recording it, my stress levels would be through the roof and i'd be so flustered i'd forget what i want to say. So for me, no thanks, i wouldn't record the assessment.

Of course it's entirely up to the individual person whether they choose to record it.

Shnagglepop

Exactly and their are people who would like it not like I can make em contact me xD if someone doesn't like the idea they won't search for it x

woodbine

As @mikehughescq points out a recording probably won't even get listened to during an MR, TBH i some what doubt that you have heard from "many sources" that awards improved when recorded, as I pointed out above recordings are uncommon. I'm sure your idea was meant for the best BUT it is i'm afraid probably a waste of your time.

Shnagglepop

I am a wheelchair userauser part of many communities online with other disabled people who have discussed the topic with me when I've asked the question. 

chiarieds

@Shnagglepop - It seems there is already a scheme in certain parts of England & Wales to lend appropriate equipment to record a PIP f2f assessment. See: https://dpac.uk.net/2019/10/put-pip-and-wca-assessments-on-the-record-a-call-to-action-ontherecord/  but I'm unsure how accurate this source is, or how old.

But, as mentioned above, is this 'evidence' going to be helpful? As @woodbine also says, 'I'm sure your idea was meant for the best,' but whilst it may pick up on some 'inaccuracies' in the Health Care Professionals report, it may also pick up on an unfortunate inadequacy in the claimant's responses if they are unaware that PIP is about their functional ability, i.e. the functional effects their disability has in their activities of daily living, &/mobility, as detailed above.

This seems the most appropriate advice to get across if you'd like to help a lot of people. As Mike Hughes says,

'At all stages of the PIP process the key thing is not the HCP report but the level of detail and anecdote in the claim pack and the strength of supporting evidence and explanations.'

mikehughescq

Hard to garner much enthusiasm for this to be honest. Few HCPs consent. No DWP office has the facility to listen to cd or cassette and tribunals almost never. So what you’re really setting up is the equivalent of a seaside memento. A memory of a day out. It’s just throwing money away and, to reiterate something I’ve said in multiple threads, proving a HCP report wrong or incomplete or inaccurate 

a - is ludicrously easy. It simply requires the ability to read.

b - does not get you PIP.

It’s exactly the obsession with the HCP report - if I could just fix this one aspect of the process to go in my favour - which creates the issues which lead to unsuccessful claims. Build a case for PIP rather than against a HCP is my new mantra.

If people have money to burn buy in some training on form filling.

mikehughescq

My understanding is that at least some of those schemes to coin a phrase “fell on their ****”.

woodbine

Shnagglepop said:

I am a wheelchair userauser part of many communities online with other disabled people who have discussed the topic with me when I've asked the question. 

Thats a bit like adverts you see on TV for shampoo where at the bottom of the screen it says 94% of woman agree it made their hair better read it carefully and it says 94% out of 32 surveyed, I can't repeat often enough that very few people have their assessments recorded usually as others have said because the HCP refuses, no amount of equipment will get over that hurdle.

katho31

Please respect a poster's opinion, it isn't okay when someone is quite new to the forum to start disregarding their views and furthermore refer to television adverts and their surveys to somehow prove a point. Be kind.

Ami2301

Please use the 'Spam button appropriately. We all have different opinions and need to respect that, whether we agree or disagree. 

mikehughescq

I think we can never have enough reminders to be kind but equally there is a significant difference between “having a different opinion” and “disregarding an opinion”. It is very rare indeed for anyone on a forum to disregard that of others. 

On this thread that hasn’t happened at all. A poster put up a question asking about how to go about something and 4 posters have suggested that thing is not a good idea and, most importantly, have explained why. That shows that they read the post; thought about it; took on board the views of other posters and responded with a different angle on it. They did so by responding to points within the post and not by attacking the poster as a person. Everybody has expressed their opinion. No-one has fallen out. 

I am concerned to see that the spam button has been used regarding the post from @woodbine. I wouldn’t have noticed that had it not been pointed out. As the post clearly was not spam - it’s from a frequent and respected poster and absolutely on topic - I’m going to politely suggest that whoever reported it as spam clicks that button again and withdraws the request as it looks like an unwarranted personal attack. If a post is believed to breach the terms of this site then the report button is the one to use. However, it’s useful to read those terms in full before taking such actions.

poppy123456

I don't see anything wrong with @woodbine's comment and i also don't understand why it's been marked as spam. I don't know why there's so many posts being marked as spam on the forum at the moment.

There's a huge difference between someone opinion and giving incorect advice/information..

Adrian_Scope

Hello @Shnagglepop and a very warm welcome to the community.

While you'll have noticed there is some debate about the effectiveness of recording assessments it's understandable many people still want to record them and feel happier knowing it's being recorded. So it's very nice of you to be looking at ways to help people that wish to record them.

It's quite long but the DWP guidance on recording equipment can be found on DWP's PIP Assessment Guide - Part One - The Assessment Process (page 31)

I've not used them myself but I've seen this Cassette Player and Recorder recommended on the community quite regularly, but you'll need two which isn't always practical. A dual one may be better. 

Best of luck with your endeavour and please let us know how it goes.

Shnagglepop

I've taken onboard everyone's comments but I will still be moving forward with the idea as I know there are people who would love something like this in place for them. Not every MR is the same and some will listen to the tapes. Not every person is the same, some want this sort of thing as an option.
Even if I only help a small amount of people it will be worth it. And if I receive feedback that it's making things worse for people then I will re-evaluate.

 But I do agree that noone should have pressed the spam button on someone's opinion when they're only trying to help.

Adrian_Scope

I’m pleased you’re going to continue @Shnagglepop. 

There is always a demand for help recording assessments. It would be worth ensuring anyone using it knows the pros and cons and is aware of how they’re allowed to use the recording (it’s in the guide I linked in my message above). 

Shnagglepop

Thankyou Adrian I will have a look at those links today. I plan to make a website to go along with it and I will list the pros and cons on an information page. If anyone has anymore pros or cons I would like to hear them as it would be helpful to include both points of view so that people are making the decision with all of the information x

bubster20

hi @Shnagglepop, as someone who worked in the DWP for 25yrs (now medically retired and on the other side!!) I know that the DMs there had no facility to listen to any recordings that would have been submitted for MRs.  PIP DMs are the same, so from that point of view recording isn’t much help.  Facilities aside, the simple fact that, rightly or wrongly, they just don’t have time to listen to recordings of assessments has to be taken into account. 

However, a higher number of customers than some may think did indeed wish to record their assessments....that said the number that actually were finally recorded was exceptionally low (for various reasons).  

If the recording is simply to help the customer reconcile between what was actually said in assessment and what is in the written report, then fine it will do that but for MR purposes and DM listening to recordings that’s beyond unlikely I’m afraid.  Just wanted to reinforce that before anyone is lead to think recordings will sway decisions.   

Hope that helps and good luck! 

woodbine

All I would politely request is that whoever reported my post #1060 as spam unreport it as it really wasn't spam, BUT I won't lose any sleep over the issue

woodbine

Hi @bubster20 and welcome to scope hope you are well today? looks like we are in for some better weather for a few days.

bubster20

Hi @woodbine and thank you, hope you are well too.  I’ve been “lurking” and reading all the posts On the forum but finally plucked up the courage to comment!  Not sure I’ll do it much with some of the replies I’ve seen 😳 but maybe now and again!  

Nice day today but think that’s us for the week here.  Usual day health wise, meh 😊.

woodbine

@bubster20 i'm fine thanks, do stick around it really is a friendly helpful community

chiarieds

Hi @bubster20 - Welcome from me too. As @woodbine says, it really is a most supportive & friendly forum, tho the occasional post does cause problems with the odd member, unfortunately, whilst the vast majority try to help &/or advise. Appreciate your helpful comment & insight, & I also hope you keep on posting.

mikehughescq

Shnagglepop said:

I've taken onboard everyone's comments but I will still be moving forward with the idea as I know there are people who would love something like this in place for them. Not every MR is the same and some will listen to the tapes. Not every person is the same, some want this sort of thing as an option.
Even if I only help a small amount of people it will be worth it. And if I receive feedback that it's making things worse for people then I will re-evaluate.

 But I do agree that noone should have pressed the spam button on someone's opinion when they're only trying to help.

Genuinely disappointing that after 24 hours the person who pressed the button to report the @woodbine post has not pressed it again to withdraw it. Glad to see we have a consensus that it was unwelcome and wrong. 

@Shnagglepop (great user name by the way) you are of course welcome to do as you see fit and good luck to you but it’s worth noting that there is an FOI request on WhatDoTheyKnow which confirms that no office doing MRs in the UK has the facility to listen to cassette or cd so it really isn’t true that some will listen. They won’t and they never have. What @bubster20 said on this is spot on both in respect of facilities and time. Indeed such a recording would need to be listened to more than once and if recordings were submitted in only 50% of cases it could reduce the number of decisions produced by around 75% per day.

I’m sure it’s easy enough to find people on forums who sent a tape in; won their MR and therefore assumed it was because the assessment was recorded but there’s no evidence base for that. 

I note your intent to set up a web site. One of the cons you’re obligated to note therefore is going to be that recordings are unlikely to be part of the evidence assessed as part of the initial decision or MR. Given that that’s the case I think you run aground after that simply because the only other purpose of a recording would be at the appeal stage (but with no guarantee of that either) or to enable a claimant to challenge the written report using the recording to make their own notes. This will no doubt throw up many discrepancies but then what? 

If a claimant writes a submission saying that the HCP report says I said this but the recording shows that I did not no decision maker or tribunal will accept that as credible evidence unless they can hear for themselves and... well they can’t can they. The best you can really offer therefore is that you have the facility if someone wants it but they need to understand that it’s likely impact is nil. 

Finally, it’s also worth noting that after overwhelmingly positive feedback about telephone assessments there is growing evidence that face to face assessments may never be the norm in future. 

As @Adrian_Scope notes, there will always be a demand for recordings but that isn’t necessarily the same as there being a need or a practical use for them. 

chiarieds

I'm also very disappointed to see that whoever reported @woodbine's post as spam hasn't withdrawn this. I know how I felt when I got my first, & thankfully only (so far) 'spam.' You may remember Mike, as they accused me of 'disability discrimination,' & thank you for completely refuting that. Perhaps Scope should put something in place to remove such 'wrongful' spams.

In this thread I only mentioned that there was, or perhaps still is, a scheme offering to lend equipment to record a f2f assessment so that the OP might see their idea wasn't novel, or could contact them to ask about their results.

On the other side of the coin, if the OP were to provide recording equipment, how would they feel if claimants weren't awarded PIP despite this? People's thoughts about PIP are often sadly misguided, which may be why some deserving people sadly don't get the award, if any, they feel appropriate. Hopefully some of those who ask about their PIP claim form or assessment on a forum such as this may instead be helped.