PIP, DLA and AA
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PIP Tribunal

tommymcfc22tommymcfc22 Member Posts: 23 Connected
Hi all I had a tribunal for pip over the phone yesterday and they said I'll receive a decision in the post in a week I have cerebral palsy I was so nervous on the phone just have to wait now it's taken 15 months already. Plus the first time I received zero points which I thought was a joke.

Replies

  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,160 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @tommymcfc22 I bet you are glad your tribunal is over at least that should be the end of it all.

    You should get your letter in the post fingers crossed sooner rather than later, like everything it depends on the workload of the courts and the postal service

    Fingers crossed for you and let us know what the outcome is
  • Cher_ScopeCher_Scope Posts: 4,011

    Scope community team

    Hi @tommymcfc22 15 months is a long time to wait, so I have my fingers tightly crossed for you having a positive outcome.  Do you feel less nervy today now it's over?

    Like @janer1967 said please let us know how you get on.  
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  • Cher_ScopeCher_Scope Posts: 4,011

    Scope community team

    Aww yeyyy @tommymcfc22 !!! I am so happy for you.  That's fantastic <3
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  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,160 Disability Gamechanger
    Great news relax and chill now 
  • Tori_ScopeTori_Scope Posts: 5,002

    Scope community team

    Amazing @tommymcfc22! Really great news
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  • chiariedschiarieds Community Co-Production Group Posts: 9,129 Disability Gamechanger
    Congratulations @tommymcfc22 - It's great to hear such good news! :)
  • Debbie1234Debbie1234 Member Posts: 82 Courageous
    yippey 🥳 I am very happy for you, great news 👍
  • tommymcfc22tommymcfc22 Member Posts: 23 Connected
    Thank you all for your kind words
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Scope Posts: 10,653 Disability Gamechanger
    Amazing news @tommymcfc22! Thank you for sharing this with us!
    Scope

  • tommymcfc22tommymcfc22 Member Posts: 23 Connected
    I have only received a letter from the court not the dwp yet have no idea how long it takes
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Great news. Backdated money can take between 2-8 weeks after a Tribunal win. You'll receive a phone call from DWP before payment is made asking for bank details to be confirmed and whether you've been in hospital recently.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • tommymcfc22tommymcfc22 Member Posts: 23 Connected
    Ok thanks for that 
  • mintiminti Member Posts: 16 Listener
    My daughter just have her PIP Tribunal over the phone hearing and LOST it.It was very traumatized experience.She is 27 now and had Dissability benefit since her school age.It was changed to PIP and she had only two face to face assessments,2015 which she won and 2019 which she lost.We asked Fight Back for Justice group to help with  presentation.They agreed after payments of £60,£50,£50 and asking for another £395 if my daughter will win her tribunal.Day before Tribunal Fight Back emailed and refused to represent my daughter in Tribunal as they thought her case will not win.They were right.All what Tribunal was interested is in my daughter job.They were made her feel like she shoud not be working if she climed PIP.I couldnt find any information that it is a case now.Is it changed recently?The judge even asked questions about my daughter employment name.As her line  manager is very sympathetic about her disability and doing a lot for helping,main companys boss wouldn't like this ajjustments.To do a tribunal over the phone is a horrible experience.Line is always interrupted .Doctors in Tribunal panel was the only one who was friendly.Dissabled representative-a woman-was horrible and judge too.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    minti said:
    My daughter just have her PIP Tribunal over the phone hearing and LOST it.It was very traumatized experience.She is 27 now and had Dissability benefit since her school age.It was changed to PIP and she had only two face to face assessments,2015 which she won and 2019 which she lost.We asked Fight Back for Justice group to help with  presentation.They agreed after payments of £60,£50,£50 and asking for another £395 if my daughter will win her tribunal.Day before Tribunal Fight Back emailed and refused to represent my daughter in Tribunal as they thought her case will not win.They were right.All what Tribunal was interested is in my daughter job.They were made her feel like she shoud not be working if she climed PIP.I couldnt find any information that it is a case now.Is it changed recently?The judge even asked questions about my daughter employment name.As her line  manager is very sympathetic about her disability and doing a lot for helping,main companys boss wouldn't like this ajjustments.To do a tribunal over the phone is a horrible experience.Line is always interrupted .Doctors in Tribunal panel was the only one who was friendly.Dissabled representative-a woman-was horrible and judge too.

    I'm sorry to hear that. People can and do work and claim PIP but if the work you do contradicts the reasons why you're claiming PIP then it can go against you. A badly presented case can go against you.

    You now have 1 month from the date of the decision to request the statement of reasons and record of proceedings. Once you receive that you'll need to find someone to have a look to see if the error in law can be found.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • laurapeachlaurapeach Member Posts: 103 Pioneering
    What sort of job does your daughter do? I guess if she is a cleaner or in a job that requires manual labour but then says she can't get dressed or shower etc then that would go against her. There are people who work and claim PIP as long as the work they do doesn't contradict the reasons they're getting PIP. 
    Mum of one, I have M.E/CFS, POTS, Central Sensitization Syndrome and Joint Hypermobility Syndrome.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    minti said:
    My daughter just have her PIP Tribunal over the phone hearing and LOST it.It was very traumatized experience.She is 27 now and had Dissability benefit since her school age.It was changed to PIP and she had only two face to face assessments,2015 which she won and 2019 which she lost.We asked Fight Back for Justice group to help with  presentation.They agreed after payments of £60,£50,£50 and asking for another £395 if my daughter will win her tribunal.Day before Tribunal Fight Back emailed and refused to represent my daughter in Tribunal as they thought her case will not win.They were right.All what Tribunal was interested is in my daughter job.They were made her feel like she shoud not be working if she climed PIP.I couldnt find any information that it is a case now.Is it changed recently?The judge even asked questions about my daughter employment name.As her line  manager is very sympathetic about her disability and doing a lot for helping,main companys boss wouldn't like this ajjustments.To do a tribunal over the phone is a horrible experience.Line is always interrupted .Doctors in Tribunal panel was the only one who was friendly.Dissabled representative-a woman-was horrible and judge too.

    I'm sorry to hear that. People can and do work and claim PIP but if the work you do contradicts the reasons why you're claiming PIP then it can go against you. A badly presented case can go against you.

    You now have 1 month from the date of the decision to request the statement of reasons and record of proceedings. Once you receive that you'll need to find someone to have a look to see if the error in law can be found.

    In addition to my comment here, paying someone to help with a MR and Tribunal is wrong. There's plently of advice centres that will help and even represent you for free.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,591 Disability Gamechanger
    Nothing has changed as regards PIP and employment. Being in work doesn’t prevent a PIP claim or award but if any work activities suggest that a PIP descriptor doesn’t apply then that is obviously a potential issue. 

    If I were @minti I would be asking myself why my representative pulled out the day before and what it was they were being told and therefore had paid for. Cases should be assessed/previewed when a first detailed conversation takes place between claimant and rep and again on receipt of appeal papers. That informs the decision on whether to represent. An extraordinarily damning piece of evidence would have had to have arrived at the last moment for anyone to be persuaded that the case was suddenly not winnable. Was that the case? Hopefully it has been explained. 

    Years ago many advice services would represent in person whether or not a case was winnable on the basis that people deserved the right to representation. Nowadays that’s not practical so good quality advice is always about an assessment of whether a case is winnable. I don’t know the circumstances here so it’s hard to comment but the day before a hearing begs further questions. 

    @minti as @poppy123456 suggests, you now need to request the SOR and ROP. Parallel to that you need an advice service to analyse the merits of the claim and how it was presented i.e. just because your daughter got DLA and PIP doesn’t automatically mean she continues to get PIP so you need to know if it’s worth pursuing to UT as there’s no point in doing so if it would only lose at FTT either way. In other words you need to know whether the assessment of the merits of the case you have been given was correct or not. If it was correct, and I’ve no reason to suppose it wasn’t, then it’s useful to try and understand why. That’s a conversation with the people who were to represent you or, if that’s not practical, a different service local to you.  

    I’m sorry you don’t feel your tribunal experience was positive but that may be a combination or not bring prepared for the hearing and not being clear on the merits if the case. Time to go back to your advice agency.
  • mintiminti Member Posts: 16 Listener
    She is working in special care home,when 2 people at once are looking after troubled teenager.She was on probation period a long time but finally got a contract 2 years ago,based on her excellent writing skills.She finished long distance degree too.Her local manager agreed to give her all admin duties as nobody in a house can do it as well as her,like writing rotas,care plans,reports,health and safety etc.She done so much training now and loves her job.Place where she works look just like normal home and its only 5 mins from our home,she drives there.And if she struggles with her conditions/crohn desiese,Me/manager let her go home for a break,toilet and bath.Main bosses don't know this,and her manager will be in trouble if they will know.
  • mintiminti Member Posts: 16 Listener
    Advice agency promised partly refund money.I regret that I asked for their help.Comunication was bad.But my local free adviser was not answering my emails a very long time.
  • mintiminti Member Posts: 16 Listener
    What is worrying my daughter now is why judge asked the name of her employer.What if her manager will be in any trouble for letting her ajjust her working day,like coming to work late and leaving late if she cant manage her morning toilet,etc.And me who advised her to look for PIP as I m the only one family member she has.I wanted to teach her how to ask for help when I will not around any more.And judge even mentioned-or,you have your mother who look after you,nothing to worry about
  • mintiminti Member Posts: 16 Listener
    May I add that tribunal took place on Friday and letter with decision arrived by Royal mail Second class next day!
  • laurapeachlaurapeach Member Posts: 103 Pioneering
    So she does purely administration at her job? Does she need help at home to have showers, get dressed, make food etc? And is she able to walk with/without aids? The diagnosis doesn't matter to the DWP, it's how it affects how she manages her day to day life.

    I'm sure the judge won't talk to her employer, they probably wanted to make sure that they understood what her job was before making the decision.
    Mum of one, I have M.E/CFS, POTS, Central Sensitization Syndrome and Joint Hypermobility Syndrome.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,591 Disability Gamechanger
    One at a time then:

    Crohns is a debilitating and potentially life threatening condition but not a huge scorer on daily living. ME scores more but almost always not as much as it ought to. ME often scores only standard rate even if someone is housebound. I can totally see why someone working and attending work with ME is not even scoring that. It raises multiple questions. Indeed I’ve met very few people with ME capable of sustaining regular work. So, by no means an easy or straightforward win. Equally, also not a dead cert loser. 

    Are you local to Fightback or elsewhere? Local to them you could use Bury and Bolton CA. Either way you need someone to assess the SOR and ROP but also the merits of the case i.e. potential entitlement. 

    I’m intrigued as to why only a partial refund is due. What exactly have you paid for which was delivered? 

    Just to reassure you, a judge would only be asking about the employer in the context of the appeal. There will be no contact with the employer. 

    Neither Crohns nor ME are especially associated with childhood? Forgive the intrusion but is your child also learning disabled in any way? Your posts suggest there’s something else going on here. I have worked with several people with Crohns and they would need the loo a lot but never have to go home to use it. Equally the comment about asking for help when you’re not around. 

    In that context I suspect the judge was trying to reassure your daughter rather than demean her and I suspect you may have badly misread the tribunal itself. 

    There’s also nothing deep to be read into the speed at which the decision arrived. HMCTS use business services which often deliver quickly regardless of what is said on the envelope.

  • mintiminti Member Posts: 16 Listener
    Thank you for your reply.I sent your mails to my daughter as I m feeling like nobody wants to listen.FightBack  is not in my area,we are around Carlisle.I saw them on FaceBook.They asked to pay £60 for initial telephone assessment with their operater,15 mins....Also this suppose to cover paper copies.I asked from the beginning if Michelle /the boss/represent my daughter on tribunal and she agreed.Communications were through emails,they really wanted to send a request for adjustment to my daughter workplace,which was not what she needed as she had a lot of ajustments already in place..Just two days before tribunal,i was asked to pay £50 for preparing submission to tribunal and another £50 if I want their advocade /not a lawer I requested/to represent my daughter on phone hearing.I payed straight away£100.   .£395 was agreed if case will winn.Advocate contacted my daughter than over the phone first time and told her that they had a meeting and decided not to represent my daughter as they think case will loose.They were going to refund £50.My daughter was very upset and sent them email about her feelings.They adviced her just go ahead and represent herself.She doesn't have any learrning difficulties completely opposite.She tried very hard on tribunal hearing,explaining them/espessially disabled representative who was expert in forstering care business,which has nothing to do with my daughter job!/I was there and listened it all.They made my daughter feel like her job doesnt exist in the way how she described it.Job and holiday-that's all what they were interested!It is not money what is matter for my daughter at the moment,but this piece of paper that proves that she has disability.Nobody believed in school in her illnesses,I done all tests and diagnostics with private consultants.This piece of paper helped to get a disability team to help her in college and uni, later. And nobody wanted to keep her in a job as she was ill a lot.Law centers,trade union -finally she got a contract.But now we lost this piece of paper and with this we lost the wright to fight for saviving!  Thank you for listening.
  • Cher_ScopeCher_Scope Posts: 4,011

    Scope community team

    Hi @minti

    I am sorry you and your daughter have been through such a trying experience.  I hope the advice given here by our members has helped you better understand what happened and why.  Above all remember we are always here if you need advice, please don't feel you have to pay for it again :(

    How is your daughter's crohn's now?  Is she receiving treatment and managing to work okay?  
    Online Community Co-ordinator

    Want to tell us about your experience on the online community?  Talk to our chatbot and let us know.
  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,160 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @minti I am sorry about your daughters tribunal but there is no longer any such thing as a piece of paper to prove a disability, I agree though lots of places ask for proof as in the PIP award letter but all this proves is the entitlement to the benefit, this is usually requested for things like disabled peoples concessions eg cinema entry, carers entry and blue badges. 

    Employers do not ask for proof of disability 

    As Mike said the tribunal will not approach your daughters employers they have made their decision 

    Also do not get concerned about the adjustments being made for her at work by her line manager as that is the sort of responsibility a line manager has to make those decisions as they work more closely with the employees and know how they fit with the work required 

    What you need to concentrate on is not about getting a document to prove a disability but look at the descriptors and where your daughter fits and should have scored points

    Keep us updated if she decides to request the SOR

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    She doesn't have a learning disability so i'm a little confused when you say you want to teach her to ask for help when you're not around.

    As Janer has correctly advised, there's no piece of paper that proves a disability. She's already got adjustments in place at work so that's a good thing.

    I poorly present Tribunal often leads to refusal and this could be what's happened here, even though you had the help of fightback. I'm still not sure exactly what the money you paid them was for.

    Your daughter needs to email HMCTS to request the SOR and ROP and go from there.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • mintiminti Member Posts: 16 Listener
    I think my daughter gave up now.She was feeling not good after tribunal.
  • mintiminti Member Posts: 16 Listener
    thank you everybody for advice
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,591 Disability Gamechanger
    I’m with @poppy123456. Wish I could charge £60 for a 15 minute phone call! Your average solicitor would charge at most £150 per hour and here we have a service staffed by someone with a law degree who is not a practising solicitor charging £60 for 15 minutes. I could assess nothing in 15 minutes. There are apparently two other “lawyers” there but this would imply to many people that they are solicitors. They are not. 

    It’s an interesting contrast with the charge for the submission. I worked on my latest sub last Friday. It took 6.5 hours. If the cost of a phone call is £60 for 15 minutes then surely  £50 represents less than 15 minutes work? I could write a few paragraphs in that time but not an actual submission. Do you have any evidence at all that this submission was submitted to HMCTS and was before the tribunal? 

    £50 for a rep? That doesn’t sound like a rep to me. 

    I suggested it would be legit for a rep to pull a case at the last moment if some new evidence came in which changed the landscape but @minti hasn’t suggested there was. So, to be clear.

    £60 for a 15 minute telephone assessment which resulted in the case being taken on.
    £50 for a submission. I look forward to hearing whether you ever saw a numbered version of this in the appeal bundle.
    £50 for a rep on the day. 
    No shocking new evidence which brings the walls of the case tumbling down. 

    At best then this “meeting” must have presumably concluded that the original assessment was wrong. What was that £50 for then?

    I’ve made this observation before but it bears repetition forever more. Facebook is the Wild West of benefits advice and much more. Do not go near it with a barge pole. 

    Already says my piece on the merits of the case but your daughter loses nothing at all bar the time to send an email if she requests the SOR/ROP. 

  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    I totally agree with @mikehughescq about facebook advice. I "was" and i repeat "was" once a member of a group for benefits advice. The advice that members were giving for benefits was so bad it made me cringe many times. Infact, i left the group because i just couldn't sit there and continue to read such appauling, frightening advice.

    I'll never understand why people pay advice, support and representation when all of this is available free.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,591 Disability Gamechanger
    I used to manage a Facebook account for a work-related umbrella group. I also produced/still produce some DLA/PIP related stuff for a charity for whom I also offer benefits advice on a voluntary basis. I had to stop following the charity on Facebook as the correct response in most cases would have been to signpost to a download of my booklet. Instead the most appalling advice from lay people was allowed to persist and proliferate and I had to walk away. 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,591 Disability Gamechanger
    I used to manage a Facebook account for a work-related umbrella group. I also produced/still produce some DLA/PIP related stuff for a charity for whom I also offer benefits advice on a voluntary basis. I had to stop following the charity on Facebook as the correct response in most cases would have been to signpost to a download of my booklet. Instead the most appalling advice from lay people was allowed to persist and proliferate and I had to walk away. 
  • chiariedschiarieds Community Co-Production Group Posts: 9,129 Disability Gamechanger
    Hmmm... before I joined Scope, I was a member of a facebook 'benefits' advice group... no longer. Think the 'advice' given was definitely questionable. I've found more sheer common sense & knowledge here than anywhere.
  • atlas47atlas47 Member Posts: 163 Pioneering
    minti said:
    Thank you for your reply.I sent your mails to my daughter as I m feeling like nobody wants to listen.FightBack  is not in my area,we are around Carlisle..


    Hi

    For your information the following Benefits Advice (free) services are available in Carlisle.

    1.Carlisle City Council -Benefits Advice, tel 01228 817200.

    This is an outstanding service, that provides empathetic and objective advice.

    2.Cumbria Law Centre - Welfare Benefits, tel 01228 515129.

    Again an outstanding organisation, who have served the good folks of Carlisle for many years.

    3.Carlisle and Eden Citizens Advice Service, tel 03444 111444/03300 563037.

    I declare an interest, I am proud to announce that I was Chair of Trustees for five years, of this charity.

    4.DaCE Cumbria, tel 01228 317010.

    They assisted me in claiming PIP, in the first instance.

    All of the above will be able to provide, welfare Benefits advice, free of charge, rather than paying the likes of FightBack, “solicitors” for services rendered.

    Stay kind and be safe.

  • mintiminti Member Posts: 16 Listener
    Thank you.I used Carlisle a Law Center adviser when my daughter was near sucked from her job.Penrith CAS helped to submit PIP application.And finally i used Carlisle Dissability servise in 2015 for application but this year their response for my calls was very late,thats why i contacted Fight for justice.It was a mistake.

  • mintiminti Member Posts: 16 Listener
    Fifght for justice refund £50 for not be able to represent my daughter.Submission was mailed to tribinal day before tribunal,i got it now.Its a one small page,all what is there what already was before in my my daughter letter for DWP for not agreeing with their decision,like which points she was not agreed.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Emailed the submission the day before the hearing....wow! It could well be a poorly presented case but we'll never know that because no one knows anything about her case. All she can do now is what's already been advised, request the SOR and ROP.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,591 Disability Gamechanger
    I think you need advice from a local service. They will be able to offer a second opinion/different perspective on the benefits side and perhaps assist in pursuit of a further refund. 

    What you have so far is 

    £60 for an assessment later effectively deemed inaccurate.
    £50 for a submission which is not in any sense a submission other than it’s a piece of paper and it went in and may not have even been seen by the tribunal.
    £50 for representation which did not happen. 
    £50 of £160 refunded. 

    It’s not for me to say what you should do about any of this but there is certainly something to think about there. 
  • mintiminti Member Posts: 16 Listener
    I think i m going to email FightBack and ask them to give us a full refund  .Can we ask tribunal for SOR and ROP without FightBack involvement?
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    minti said:
    .Can we ask tribunal for SOR and ROP without FightBack involvement?

    Yes... it's nothing to do with fightback.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • mintiminti Member Posts: 16 Listener
    edited August 2020
    I m talking to Fightback4 justice on Facebook now.My understanding of changing you need to report about PIP are-amount of care,leaving country,prison,residential school,GP address etc.There is nothing about your job you need to report,only if you need more care with new job.Its different for ESA.I read all letters from DWP and there is nothing about jobs.  I have CA letter Changes you DON't have to report: being in work,changes in your earnings,if someones join or leave your household.report change:name.address,etc....
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    You are missunderstanding it. PIP isn't means tested so working doesn't affect it in this way, at least. What can go against you though, as previously advised is if the work you do contradcits the reasons why you're claiming PIP in the first place. Lots of people work and claim PIP without any problems at all.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • mintiminti Member Posts: 16 Listener
    All what Fight Back was asking my daughter day before Tribunal was how many hours she is working,when she start full time job?And they told her they cant represent her as she has a full time job.looks like the day before tribunal they knew she will loose her case.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    You can request the SOR and ROP from HMCTS as previously advised. Other than that it's impossible to give any advice here because no one knows anything at all about her case.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
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