Pip wrong decision

afells · February 12

Hi my wife has been awarded enhanced for daily living and standard for mobility which is a relief as we were dreading the initial assessment but we have a positive result! However, on the decision write up it states that my wife can make a planned journey to see her regular gp and small walks to the post box etc as long as she is accompanied by me (her husband). She cannot do this alone, only with the help of me. She has been awarded 10 points for this answer cannot undertake any journey as it would cause me overwhelming psychological distress whereas I am under the impression on the descriptors, she should score 12 points as she cannot follow the route of a familiar journey without another person? Any help would be appreciated, is this good grounds to start the reconsideration process?

mikehughescq · February 13

Yes.

afells · February 13

Anyone else with advice please

ASDIBS · February 13

You could ask for a reconsideration and write about what would happen if you weren't there to assist your wife on a familiar journey

woodbine · February 13

Or you could see enhanced and standard as a decent result?

afells · February 13

Yes it is an amazing result but my query is, my wife has informed them that she can leave the house on a familiar journey only accompanied by myself. The descriptors say that should be 12 points? They are also stating in writing on her decision that she doesn't take any journey. So what would happen if the dwp seen my wife out with me? They would surely say that she shouldn't be out? We are just stating facts to them and their decision is contradicting

janer1967 · February 13

If you feel the decision is wrong then go for mr and detail what descriptor you feel is wrong and why

You can do this by phone but always follow up in writing

MR are not always successful and would then be tribunal where they will look at the whole award

How long is the award for ? If it is short award it may not be worth going to tribunal as they take a while to compete

However payments will still be paid at awarded rates till any new decision is made

afells · February 13

The award is 4 years. It's not necessarily about the money, although it will definitely help and she deserves what is due it's the fact they have wrote in their own words that she cant take any journey as it would cause psychological distress and scored her 10 points yet in the assessment the assessor has wrote she can go on a familiar journey with her husband. Which is contradictory.

ASDIBS · February 13

I personally would ask for mandatory reconsideration over the telephone and like the above post says, then write to them explaining why. You'll also receive a confirmation text (if using A mobile) to confirm that you've requested an MR. You won't lose anything by submitting it. They'll just ask for another decision maker to look at the original report and whatever else you choose to submit.

janer1967 · February 13

No harm in requesting the mr

MarkN88 · February 13

Just bear in mind too that the decision maker looking at the MR can also reduce the award, so that is also a possibility.

afells · February 13

Yes I'm aware of this and not worried as my wife has medical evidence going back 20 years plus doctors support. But of course you have to be careful but also we should all surely fight for what is right and written in black and white...

MarkN88 · February 13

afells said:

Yes I'm aware of this and not worried as my wife has medical evidence going back 20 years plus doctors support. But of course you have to be careful but also we should all surely fight for what is right and written in black and white...

I agree, fight for what you think you need to, just wanted to make sure you were aware.

mikehughescq · February 13

MarkN88 said:

Just bear in mind too that the decision maker looking at the MR can also reduce the award, so that is also a possibility.

I’m absolutely not a fan of comments like this I’m afraid. Awards get reduced largely because of poor information and evidence. There’s no random element to it and the stats show that the numbers who lose benefit when they go for an MR are very small. Overwhelmingly the most likely outcome is an unchanged award. Warning people that they could lose benefit when on a forum and completely unable to assess the risk is likely to put people unnecessarily off pursuing valid claims.

All that said, I’m not sure the process is understood here. The claimant asserts they can’t go out without their partner. The HCP assesses otherwise. The fact the claimant has made an assertion won’t be enough. A statement is not evidence. What’s the supporting evidence for that? Have specific incidents on particular occasions been described in detail?

afells · February 13

Thanks for replying and I appreciate your positivity. The evidence will come from her gp, as her gp has wrote letters to dwp in the past supporting my wife's illness and the fact she visits her when she really has to. Which is approximately 6 times a year. Also I am always with her inside the doctors office. So if evidence was needed, then yes she does visit her gp and it's easy to provide from a letter from her gp to state I'm always present with her.

mikehughescq · February 13

A GP letter won’t get you far on that descriptor by itself. A GP is but one familiar journey. Think about visiting family and friends; the dentist; the hairdresser; shopping; nights out; big family occasions etc. Do they all come to her? You need to cover all those bases. If she can make it out occasionally to any of those then you need to give detailed explanations of the why and how.

afells · February 13

The only times she goes out is to her gp appointments and on a good day, which is rare, she will walk to the end of the road to post a letter..... all with me never alone. Her illness is anxiety, panic disorder, social phobia and agoraphobic tendencies. Family gatherings, hairdressers, shopping etc are not done, haven't been for 10 years.

mikehughescq · February 13

Then those latter scenarios are where you need to provide detailed anecdotal evidence.

afells · February 13

We are going to ask for a MR and take it from there! Thanks for the advice

Tori_Scope · February 14

Thread closed pending review.

Tori_Scope · February 14

Hi everyone,

I've moved some of the comments from this thread over to a new thread, which I'll make public once I've reviewed the comments in question.

Please remember to:

Keep comments on-topic: I understand that the comments were somewhat related to what the OP asked, but it got to the point where the thread was being derailed and the OP no longer felt they were receiving constructive advice
Please watch your tone: this applies to all members. Please don't attack other members personally, and try to avoid using a tone that could be perceived by other members in a negative way. We understand that written text can be interpreted differently by different members, so we expect everyone to bear in mind the tone of their comment, and how it might be interpreted by others
Report comments or posts: we did receive reports on this thread, which helped to flag this up to me this morning. If you're unhappy with the behaviour of other members, please report this to us and then step away from the thread. Let us deal with it

I've re-opened this thread for the time being in case anyone else has some on-topic advice for the OP, or others who might have the same query.

afells · February 14

I'm back with one more question if anyone could kindly give their constructive opinion please. What would you personally do if you were in my wife's situation? Accept the award or ask for the MR? To recap, the assessor gave her 10 points for mobility. And it was "cannot undertake any journey as it would cause overwhelming psychological distress " whereas we told them she can go on a familiar journey to the gp surgery or the post box with only my assistance, not alone at all. Surely this falls into the 12 points descriptor " cannot follow a familiar journey without the help of assistance "

On the decision letter they have stated in black and white she can go to the gp surgery with my assistance, then they score 10 points. For me this is a contradiction...is it not?

Many thanks

janer1967 · February 14

I personally would go for the mr as the award is quite long

But it's up to yourselves and if you want to have the stress for the amount of extra money involved and for basis of future awards

ASDIBS · February 14

If the reason is psychological distress then I think it's 10 points. If it's a reason other than psychological distress, I think it is then 12 points. However I may be wrong but that's how I read it.

ASDIBS · February 14

Sounds like your scenario would be 12points but I'm not an expert

woodbine · February 14

I'll stick with what I said at the top of the thread I would personally see enhanced and standard as a result, then present a better case on mobility at the review, I got standard care with enhanced mobility and whilst i was only 1 point off enhance for care I was more than happy with my award.

MarkN88 · February 14

woodbine said:

I'll stick with what I said at the top of the thread I would personally see enhanced and standard as a result, then present a better case on mobility at the review, I got standard care with enhanced mobility and whilst i was only 1 point off enhance for care I was more than happy with my award.

My mum was the same, she was 2 points off enhanced care and was awarded enhanced mobility, but decided to leave it at that.

afells · February 14

Just to clarify, shes been on enhanced daily living and standard mobility for the last 6 years. Her condition was that bad she didn't leave the house at all for the 6 years but on this assessment, we told them she can now go to her gp. As for another thing its about being truthful in the fact she has come a long way to be able to go to see her regular gp, whereas for the last 6 years she couldn't! Also if we accept the award which says she cannot undertake ANY journey, when she actually can go the gp with me by her side, isnt that lying?

mikehughescq · February 14

In asking the question you're essentially asking people for their interpretation of two things:

- whether the person will qualify.
- the level of risk involved.

You're on a forum asking largely lay people and, frankly, whilst they may have an opinion, it isn't necessary one informed by anything other than their own limited experience. People who are nervous/anxious/cautious will tell you they wouldn't go for it. People who understand the points system and case law etc. may tell you something else. People who have lost benefit and who blame the system rather than looking at the weakness of the case will also tell you to leave it be. It doesn't take you any further to ask as few people with positive experiences post on forums so your responses will always be biased towards people who will say you ought to accept the current award.

As I observed earlier that's a dangerous route to go down. How would you feel if this forum persuades you to leave it and then in a years time you seek professional advice only to find out the risk was nil and hundreds or thousands of pounds have been lost?

You've already been advised what you would need to do evidence wise to the get to 12 points. Other people's opinion on that isn't going to take you any further.

The risk issue, which, contrary to the frankly ludicrous assertion from Scope, is most certainly not off topic -it's clearly central to exactly what you're asking -, is one that cannot be answered on a forum. That can only be answered by 1 to 1 professional advice. The risk to a current award is very low indeed but the specific risk to this award needs professional advice.

I am happy to publicly challenge Scope to explain why the quantification of risk and how people express that is off topic.

100% confident they will look daft trying.

vanityfarm · February 14

My daughter was given enhanced rate and 12 points because she would be unable to plan a journey.but was not given 12 points for mobility Consequently we were turned down for her blue badge even though she has severe epilepsy and severe anxiety and has a learning dissabillity.she had received a blue badge for the past 10 years when it was not given on the points system.we had to appeal the decision and eventually got her badge back .but know we will have the same problem next time it needs renewing.I contacted the pip but was told if we appeal we may have to go through the application process again.

afells · February 15

Hi, yes we have! We have requested to see a copy of the pa4 and we will seek help from CAB if we feel we have grounds to challenge which is highly likely from what the decision letter states! Thanks for your help! However if anyone has any experience with a mandatory reconsideration, I would be happy to hear how it went!

calcotti · February 15

afells said:

Also if we accept the award which says she cannot undertake ANY journey, when she actually can go the gp with me by her side, isnt that lying?

You need to consider that the appropriate PIP descriptor is the one that applies on the majority of days. So not being able to undertake any journey doesn’t mean they can never do so.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria#mobility-activities

”A claimant who satisfies 1E cannot also satisfy 1F. If they cannot undertake a single journey on the majority of days due to overwhelming psychological distress, then 1E will be the applicable descriptor, even if there are occasions when they could follow a familiar route, if accompanied.”

This may the basis of the decision your wife has received.

afells · February 15

calcotti said:

afells said:

Also if we accept the award which says she cannot undertake ANY journey, when she actually can go the gp with me by her side, isnt that lying?

You need to consider that the appropriate PIP descriptor is the one that applies on the majority of days. So not being able to undertake any journey doesn’t mean they can never do so.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria#mobility-activities

”A claimant who satisfies 1E cannot also satisfy 1F. If they cannot undertake a single journey on the majority of days due to overwhelming psychological distress, then 1E will be the applicable descriptor, even if there are occasions when they could follow a familiar route, if accompanied.”

This may the basis of the decision your wife has received.

Thank you very much, this helps me tons! I understand now!

Pip wrong decision

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