Employment and careers
If this is your first visit, check out the community guide. You will have to Join us or Sign in before you can post.

Employment Tribunal Preliminary Hearing

Abigail96GalantAbigail96Galant Member Posts: 14 Listener
edited April 17 in Employment and careers

I wonder if someone can help!  I'm currently in the Employment Tribunal process and have soon date for Preliminary Hearing.  I have completed the PH Agenda form with help from the respondent I kid you not.  This has now being sent.  My worry is that the respondent's solicitor is asking for a list of discriminatory matters, unfair dismissal matters, matters arising from a disability, basically a list of the things I feel is discriminatory.  My first response was to direct them to the ET1 form.  To be fair the ET1 although covers the things I'm claiming for it doesn’t cover everything in a comprehensive manner.  So, it leads me ask; am I putting myself in precarious situation by giving lots of information before a PH?  The respondent’s solicitor is pushing about doing this, saying it’s required so they can assemble the bundle for the judge on the day.  I feel the bundle assemble part to be incorrect according to research.

Thanks
Tagged:

Replies

  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,205 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi and welcome 

    Why would you not want to disclose all details ? If you are wanting it taking into account then you need to give the information relating to this 

    You should get all your evidence prepared and submitted in time for the pre hearing in my opinion . 

    Have you had any legal advice or contacted ACAS at all ? 

    If they can see they have no defence and likely to lose the tribunal they often consider settling out of court so it is in your interest to present your case in full 

    The tribunal won't want any surprises on the day for which the respondent can't give and defence to 
  • Abigail96GalantAbigail96Galant Member Posts: 14 Listener

    Thank you so much.

    To your question about ACAS.  Yes, they are involved, but the Union shafted me and won't reply to anything.  This is what you get for paying union fees.  I’ve been in contact with a few agencies, but its hard due to the pandemic, but the Disability Law Service said Unions sometimes are not wanting to get involve in Discriminatory cases etc...  I've completed most of the information the respondent has ask for, but when you have limited experience of this it can be hard to know how and when to trust, although your points make absolute sense.  I will continue to draft what they need and send it to them today.


  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,205 Disability Gamechanger
    In my opinion union's can be a waste of time some are good some are bad like everything 

    I understand about trust issues but if you want something taken into account you need to disclose this from the start or it won't be considered you can't just throw in new issues at pre hearing 

    Good luck let us know how you get on 

    Some welfare rights officers may offer advise and representation if you contact welfare rights in your area 
  • Abigail96GalantAbigail96Galant Member Posts: 14 Listener
    Thank you again... I will most certainly keep you informed.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,644 Disability Gamechanger
    Unions tend to not get involved because discrimination cases throw a person up against another person and both might be union members. Far easier for them to take a case where a union member is up against an organisation.
  • Abigail96GalantAbigail96Galant Member Posts: 14 Listener
    I see... thanks Mike.. This should not be allowed... I tried to complain but the system reverts you to the very team who carried this out in the first place.  Its a win lose situation.  I might as well open a drain and put my union fees down it.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,644 Disability Gamechanger
    Been the nature of unions from the year dot and I say that as sometime with a strong commitment to my union.
  • Abigail96GalantAbigail96Galant Member Posts: 14 Listener

    Hi all

    Thanks for all your support you've showed so far....

    I had my Case Management Hearing a few days ago which turned out to be difficult.  Without giving too much away; I fell ill in 2018 for 16 months, having been discriminated, harassed and bullied, including the job role and organization.  This was managers and work colleagues.  I was diagnosed during sickness period with PTSD, having already had many decades of social anxiety and depression.  When I agreed to return after sixteen months they failed to look into reasonable adjustments and so I was terminated.  I didn't file a Grievance as instructed too me during sickness meetings because I was too ill and because I felt the organization would lie and viewed it as nothing more than waste of time.

    So, it leads me back to the CMPH meeting.

    I ended up having problems understanding what was required due to the length of time on the phone without a break, which triggered anxiety and a mild panic attack.  I told the Judge this.  The meeting ended shortly after.  I originally spoke (back in December 2020) to the ET requesting special measures, asking if the meeting could be extended by two hours, due to my mental health difficulties, and heard nothing, despite sending several emails.  The ET finally responded two days before the Preliminary Case Management hearing and rejected the request. 

    THE MEETING:  It was a 3-way telephone meeting (Judge, Respondent Solicitor and me).  The judge issued several order's one of which is for the ET1 claim to be amended, due to my failure in terms of being specific regarding my claim for direct discrimination, indirect discrimination, unfair dismissal, discrimination arising from a disability and lack reasonable adjustments, not forgetting the harassment and bullying claims.  Just to simplify what I mean; in the claim form I'd written briefly about lack of promotional opportunities, having been interviewed no less than 7 times without success, despite others with little or no knowledge having success and with limited length of service.  I also wrote about lack of implementation for reasonable adjustments when I returned to work before being terminated.  I was terminated because I failed to accept two alternative positions, both of which were almost identical, either equal to my current job description, below or equal too my current grade, of which either were not in range of my high-level qualifications and reason why I went sick in the first place. 

    I was not specific on the ET1 claim form in terms of quoting exactly what the discrimination's was.  I told the Judge I thought this is when the witness statements are used.  Although I was discriminated against in terms of promotional opportunities, due to mental health difficulties, I was not actually told it is because you have mental health difficulties, but more in a subtle less obvious way that is hard to detect.  So, it leads me on the ask; How do I actually word how it should sound, and according to how the law sees fit?

    I'm hoping what is written does make sense?  If you require specificity please do not hesitate to ask.  I'm struggling...

     

    Thanks


  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,205 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi again.

    As my previous messages you need to give an explanation for everything you are claiming 

    When , who,  where , what , why 

    So date of each incident ,who was involved , where it took place , , what happened,  why it happened and what was the outcome and the affect this had on you 

    Also back this up with any evidence eg emails,  letters,  meeting notes 

    The words you use do not need to be legal jargon just a full account of everything you want taking into account 

    Again I strongly advise you get some help 

    You may also want to look at example cases on the Internet which may help you 

    Hope this helps 
  • Abigail96GalantAbigail96Galant Member Posts: 14 Listener

    Hi

    It does help!  I believe where I went wrong is the requirement of the claim form was put into the witness statement.  I was advised previously to present the issues for the claim form only; i.e., discrimination, unfair dismissal etc without going into great length. Therefore the advice is correct.  I've tried to get advice from multiple sources (law centers etc) but the pandemic has shut down all communication avenues, with some not replying at all, in addition to my illness which renders me unable to remain proactive and motivated, although I can honestly say, I've done quite well to get this far.  I can't get an appointment with a local CAB office, but will continue to try again, but I do accept what you're saying.  Like I said previously, the Judge will be issuing an order to have the claim form amended as per your explanation, so I will start recording now.  It shouldn't take long because all I need to do is list things as per your explanation.

    Many thanks for your response..... Its given me some confidence back...


  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,205 Disability Gamechanger
    Your welcome glad it has helped 

    It would also be worthwhile if you have any witnesses to anything or ca  get some witness statements.  Don't worry if you can't 

    Have you tried welfare rights for a rep 

    You are also entitled to 30 mins free advice from a solicitor 

    Can I just ask what are you hoping to get from the claim 

    Also if you want me to see your updates if you tag me it will be easier for me to pick up just put @janer1967 in the post 
  • Abigail96GalantAbigail96Galant Member Posts: 14 Listener

    Hi

    Witnesses have run away, and are concerned about thier job's and protecting the company, although I understand this could be a mandatory requirement by the ET for them to appear in court etc..

    I will look into Welfare Rights stuff, thanks for this..

    I've contacted a few Solicitors with each saying they don't offer free advice which I know I can get, it's a matter of seeking out the right one until one does accept...

    Its difficult to say what I'm hoping to get but my menial calculations have been in region £50-70,000 as a result of continued illness and loss of wages, pension cost, injury to feelings etc...

    In terms of any updates to you, I will do as you specified...

    But before I go; can you ask if a list of when , who,  where , what , and why's goes something like this;

    From January 1997 until July 1998, Ms Made Up Name, of the Respondent refused me the Claimant help.  This was part of a ploy to disorientate and harrass me, which she said were either working from home, in remote locations or doing other jobs.  On the 17th May 1997 I was not allowed to work from home as forecast predicted (heavy snow) that week.  I communte nearly 60 miles both way each day, despite others been allowed to work from home, even though they lived locally.  I was marginalised, isolated, over worked, by senior staff and managers and left to lone work in a job/department requiring at least 3 people, and excluded from emails which contacined details about staff meetings, which affected by ability to function, which I stated as disability discrimination and less favourable treatment.

    Thanks


  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,205 Disability Gamechanger
    Yes you are on the right lines there but I would name the people eg who was the manager,  who was allowed to work from home 

    What emails d7dnt you get when and who sent them who was on email distribution list,  do you have email ? 

    The more detail the better as they will have to respond to each item 

    If you are expecting that amount of compensation then you will need to demonstrate a strong case 

    You may also want to detail your disabilities and provide medical evidence 
  • Abigail96GalantAbigail96Galant Member Posts: 14 Listener

    @janer1967

    Hi

    Thanks for this.... My case is extremely complicated...

    I've named all the people in a complicated witness statement.  The problem is I left out a small summary of specific issues when I completed the claim form.  I only stated things like discrimination and unfair dismissal without actually saying what, where, how and when. Since the CMH the judge is going to issue an order of claim amendment so I can add or elaborate fully the missing information.  In the original claim form I was having difficulties wording how to say things and although it is well written according to the judge its the specifcs is whats needed.  Now you've given me some confidence I can see what I need to do... 

    To answer your last question this is a list of what they've said below;

    They have acknowledged;

    The Respondent accepts that the Claimant has mental health difficulties including depression, anxiety and a diagnosis of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD).

    The Respondent further accepts that these are disabilities within the meaning of the Equality Act 2010.  The Respondent accepts that the Claimant was disabled at time of the alleged discriminatory treatment and accepts that it had knowledge of the Claimant’s disability. The Respondent denies that it discriminated against the Claimant as alleged or at all.

    I completed a non-exhaustive list of issues via the respondents’ solicitor request before the CMH meting, but it was not completed correctly.  I did this wrong.  I listed issues in the format of; I was interviewed for a total of 7 positions and all have failed.  I didn’t go into specifics like who, when, where etc. But now I understand what to do thanks to you...

    My evidence is extremely short because it was difficult to obtain this while under sustained pressure and my illness did not help.  They knew this.  So, although I don't have a massive amount of evidence, what I do have can be used to reference areas of the list of issues.  As an example; I have information which highlights that a meeting took place with two corporate members which I can use to marry most of the allegations if that makes sense? 

    I'm hoping what I’ve written so far makes sense, if not please feel free to say?

    Many thanks

  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,205 Disability Gamechanger
    It makes sense and as they acknowledge your disabilities then no need to provide any further evidence 

    Good luck 
  • Cher_ScopeCher_Scope Posts: 4,075

    Scope community team

    Hi @Abigail96Galant

    In addition to the helpful advice already received, I wondered if you'd look for support/representation via the Advice Local website.  If you enter your postcode and select 'Employment' from the drop down list, the next page will take you to a list of local independent organisations who could help 

    I also wondered if you were receiving sufficient support with your mental health at this time?  This must be a challenging process to navigate so please do contact your GP if you feel that would be beneficial.

    Just to let you know, I've moved this thread to the Employment and careers category (don't want you getting lost looking for it!).

    All the very best with the outcome and please keep us updated. 
    Online Community Co-ordinator

    Want to tell us about your experience on the online community?  Talk to our chatbot and let us know.
  • Abigail96GalantAbigail96Galant Member Posts: 14 Listener
    Thank you ver ymuch.  Yes I am getting mental health support and the process is of course challenging.  The Advice Local website I will have a look at tomorrow and ceratinly will keep you all updated....
  • Abigail96GalantAbigail96Galant Member Posts: 14 Listener
    edited April 20

    I feel following your advice that I'm beginning to get somewhere.  There's one thing niggling at me for days now which I hope you maybe able to answer;

    I've been discriminated at work.  I have a mental impairment.  I'm confused by this; if my employer has not directly said that a lack of training and promotional opportunities declined on several occasions is due to my disability, how do I actually state that it was because of my disability?  

    I do feel that my treatment is due to my disability, but I'm having difficulty expressing in words as set out in the Equality Act 2010.  

    Many thanks


  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,205 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi again 

    It is difficult to prove this unless it is direct and you have evidence 

    The best way is to compare yourself against an able bodied person that does the same job to the same level and has been promoted 

    But again they can come up with any counter evidence to disprove that,  they will say they had better performance , better results,  better application,  interview etc 

    All you can do is ho with your gut feeling 

    Stare how many others have been promoted above you   how many times you have applied and reasons why you were not successful 

    Hope you get what I mean 
  • Abigail96GalantAbigail96Galant Member Posts: 14 Listener

    I do have evidence of some interviews, with whom, where and when, but not all.  I requested this via a SAR but was told the information is destroyed as part of retention policy.

    I can compare or know of others within the team with less or no qualifications and no skills at that time promoted to senior level positions having had training from me for the role prior to promotion.

    To your third point; is what I believe they will say; although this is not true, but a case for the ET to decide based with probable evidence.  There is no way for me to disprove this.  The only proof is human resources records.  Each time I was rejected according to them came down to a few minor points and they would say "you did well but you were too nervous", or "you did well but you need to be more specific with your answers".  Now what happened to my request for reasonable adjustments prior to interviews since they knew at the time and accepted that I am a disabled person.

    At the end of the day the ET role will be to determine who is telling the truth.  Of course evidence will help.

    On a totally different note; I had a call from Solicitor.  Free half hour consultation.  They said more or less what you stated in a previous message - to present the facts, who, when and were with dates.  Then apply what I felt was discriminatory.  They said it will be the role of the ET to state direct, indirect, associated with etc categories.  Having said that; it is difficult because they seemed more interested in taken on the case rather then giving proper meaningful advice, but its better than nothing.

    Your comments are clear and precise.

    Thank you

  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,205 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi 

    A solicitors aim will always be to try and get you to let them handle your case it is very lucrative for them 

    As you say regarding the promotions you can only present what you have and indeed up to the judge to make a decision based on probability.  Bur as b4 it is hard to prove as they will give the reasons you state above 

    Is your case just about promotions or are there other things? 

    As for type of discrimination you don't need to specify but I will try and explain 

    Direct is when it is aimed at an individual can be verbal , written , physical , an example someone calling an ethnic person a derogatory name relating to their colour 

    Indirect is when it us aimed at a certain group eg only male employees are allowed to wear trainers females must wear black shoes 

    Try not to get too caught up in the legal jargon it isn't expected of you 
  • Abigail96GalantAbigail96Galant Member Posts: 14 Listener

    Your correct about Solicitors, even though I specifically added to the message the information to be discussed during the call.  Having said they have agreed to send through cost for drafting an amended claim form, although I'm not in a position to go ahead.

    In terms of other issues connected to the case, no the case is not just about lack of promotion on several stages.  Other discrimination factors include, unfavorable and less favorable treatment; when I asked to work in quiet areas this was rejected when others could.  There's also unprecedented Bullying & Harassment claims of which I have some evidence; no implementation for reasonable adjustment despite respondent agreeing they would, and of course unfair dismissal when I refused two alternative/similar positions to the role that made me sick and unable to do that type of work.  Just kept forcing to go back to my old job despite numerous Occupational Health reports stating not too.  When I was offered a role by another manager during menial work on phase return which would have helped transition me back into the work place without being subjected to the pitfalls of the previous role and two other roles they were offering low low grades, they rejected this by saying I was not qualified or experienced despite my abundant skill and qualifications, when others had no qualifications or experience and propagated into higher grade positions.  A classic case of nepotism on a grand scale.

    Following your help I'm now able to distinguish perfectly between direct and indirect discrimination, so thank you for your examples.

    And you're right about not trying to get caught up with the legal jargon.  This is enough for me to get on with.  I've started to write my claim amendments using names, when and where's.  I feel a little confident now.  O one other thing, I recieved a call from Citizen Advice.  They don't offer specialist Employment Law support in my area and all they could do is to point me to the website which I've used on several occasions prior.

    I'll leave it for now janer1967 you've been amazing.  Now I know why people never bother to raise issues with employers or the tribunal because it can be extremely challenging.

    I will update you soon..

    Many thanks
  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,205 Disability Gamechanger
    OK I just didn't want you to focus on just the promotion aspect as this will be just their word against yours 

    While it is important to raise these issues your other complaints may have more weight in your claim 

    As the old saying goes if you fail to prepare then you prepare to fail so as much detail as you can as they will have to defend your allegations 
  • Abigail96GalantAbigail96Galant Member Posts: 14 Listener

    Thanks for the previous response, it helps.  I was also wondering, the Equality Act mentions quite a bit about discrimination as expected and talks about protected characteristics and different types of discrimination.  What is confusing is this example;  as a hypothetical example, say I applied for a job and I get rejected because the employer thinks I'm Chinese because of my name based on the employers perception.  Whilst I know this is discrimination under the act how would the tribunal believe this if the employer has not actually said?  I don't want to lie and say the employer told me it was.

  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,205 Disability Gamechanger
    It is just your word against theirs I'm afraid 

    They may have to evidence their ethnic statistics eg number of ethnic groups employed or number rejected against recruited but I'm not sure 

    All you can do is put your side forward 
  • Abigail96GalantAbigail96Galant Member Posts: 14 Listener

    This what I thought.  I've got plenty of examples but the only thing I can do is put forward my case.  It will be the job of the ET to decipher truth from lies with evidence.  

    All the help I've had from the Scope Community has given confidence and understanding of what I need to do going forward.

    Thanks
  • janer1967janer1967 Member Posts: 11,205 Disability Gamechanger
    Your welcome no problem 
Sign in or join us to comment.