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Disability discrimination during covid pandemic

TG0601
TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
edited May 4 in Work and employment
Hi everyone, I’m just wondering if anyone else has suffered disability discrimination in the workplace during then covid pandemic? I had to shield as I’m critically vulnerable, so was furloughed from work. I asked if I could work from home instead. They said home working wasn’t available, however it was. When I asked again to work from home as my colleagues were able to, I was told my absence recorded was higher than there’s so I couldn’t. My absence was due to shielding & disability absence. My condition makes me incapacitated, unable to walk & drive in flare ups. I asked for home working every time I was off sick but was refused. They also denied me car parking space as they were only for senior staff with no disabled parking either. I have a tribunal pending at the end of the year. Have any of you been refused home working also?
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Comments

  • janer1967
    janer1967 Member Posts: 12,361 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi and welcome 

    I have heard of others whi gave been refused home working 

    Did you put in an official complaint to your employer ? If so did they give reasons why 

    Did you put in a request for reasonable adjustments as outlined in the equality act 

    Have you asked to be referred to oh for a workplace assessment ? 

    These are all actions that could have possibly brought about a solution  for you 

    As you have put in a tribunal claim are you getting any support with this 

    Have you been in touch with ACAS for advice 

    Just few things for you to consider 

    Hope it all works out for you 
    I have professional experience in HR within public,  private, and charity sectors.  If I can't help I will
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    Yes I followed all procedures re grievance, appeal & ACAS. Their reason was my absence record was too high. All of my absences were disability related so I’ve maintained that’s disability discrimination. I am with a union & my union solicitors are supporting me. They also didn’t pass my probation due to disability absence & had me on probation for 2 years 8 months! I’ve a list as long a story my arm of incidents of discrimination & failure to make reasonable adjustments. They refused to do an individual risk assessment when I returned from shielding, so my union told me not to go back into the office until I was safe. They refused. It’s been so stressful.
  • janer1967
    janer1967 Member Posts: 12,361 Disability Gamechanger
    I can imagine how stressful it has been and good for for fighting for your rights 

    Glad you have some support to fight your case 

    Would be interesting to know what the outcome is 

    Is it a large company? 

    I would predict an out of court settlement 
    I have professional experience in HR within public,  private, and charity sectors.  If I can't help I will
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    Yes it’s a big concern. We have approx 500 staff in our office alone. There’s more in the uk. Going from shielding alone for nearly 6 months to the next day walking into an office as big as that, where social distancing wasn’t being adhered to by most, was totally overwhelming. I was absolutely panic stricken. I was coughed over, sneezed over, I had 5 different desks in 4 days, my disability chair & equipment disappeared & I was removed & replaced from my team whilst shielding. It’s definitely done my mental & physical health a lot of damage. 
  • Tori_Scope
    Tori_Scope Posts: 6,088

    Scope community team

    That does all sound very stressful @TG0601, so I'm sorry you've had to go through it. 

    Have you been able to access any mental health support throughout this process? 
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  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    Thank you Tori. Yes I have, via the NHS. It never fails to amaze me how difficult & discriminatory some employers are. My employers solicitors are maintaining they have done nothing wrong & it was proportionate. I’m hoping & praying then tribunal give me justice 
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    I am hoping and praying you find justice too, it never ceases to amaze how insensitive employers can be to disability. I am also going down the route of an Employment Tribunal for Disability Discrimination which was pretty blatant and quite shocking. Good luck though with your case.
  • Tori_Scope
    Tori_Scope Posts: 6,088

    Scope community team

    I'm glad you're accessing some NHS therapy @TG0601. How have things been recently? 
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  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    Hi @shellbell20 I’m so sorry to hear you have gone through something similar. Such a shame that in this day & age this happens. How far are you down the tribunal route? I’ve got a judicial hearing early June. My solicitor said it’s for both sides to discuss settlement & to try to get it sorted before the main hearing in October. I’ll just have to see how it goes. Have you got representation? I’m sure we can support each other 🙏
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    Hi @Tori_Scope. Thank you for asking how things are going. I’ve got a judicial hearing early June. My solicitor said it’s for both sides to discuss settlement & to try to get it sorted before the main hearing in October. I’m not sure my employers will back down as they are saying they have done nothing wrong & it was all proportionate. It definitely wasn’t. I can see it going all the way to the main hearing in October. If anyone else is going through something similar I’ll be happy to try to support them too 🙏
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    TG0601 said:
    Hi @shellbell20 I’m so sorry to hear you have gone through something similar. Such a shame that in this day & age this happens. How far are you down the tribunal route? I’ve got a judicial hearing early June. My solicitor said it’s for both sides to discuss settlement & to try to get it sorted before the main hearing in October. I’ll just have to see how it goes. Have you got representation? I’m sure we can support each other 🙏
    I got sacked yesterday, although I had been in touch with Acas before that date as the incidents started happening a few weeks ago.  I sent my companies an email asking for Reasonable Adjustments, I worked for an agency on a contract for a bank,  they said no and then sacked me and told me to look for a job more suitable. So I have to take two companies to court. Luckily they sent their response via email as I couldn't talk to them on the phone with my anxiety.

    I rang Acas today with the new development and they said send them a letter to reconsider their decision about reasonable adjustments,  however I can't do that as I know the answer I shall get and I don't even really want to talk to them nor do I want to go  through Early Conciliation either as I am tired of their insults about my Mental Health and the attitude of tough luck, I keep getting.

    I now need to fill the forms in for ET, however I don't have any legal representation so I am quite worried about it all to be honest, taking on two major companies and one being a bank. It would be lovely if we could help each other through this and pass on any information we find out. 
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    @shellbell20 aww no! I’m so sorry to hear all of this. Just awful. Did ACAS give you any information on free legal organisations that can help you? They gave me the tel number & email of my local legal advice centre. You’ll have one near you too. Ring ACAS on Monday & ask them for free legal advice organisations. They should be able to help you fill out your ET1. My union did all of mine fortunately. Make sure you get as much information in your ET1 form but make it bullet pointed & in chronological order. & reference any evidence that you have. In order to go through to a tribunal you have to follow grievance procedures otherwise a tribunal might not consider your case. So even though I know you don’t want to go back, & rightly so, write a letter to both companies outlining your side of events. You have to go this within 3 months less 1 day of the incidents happening. If they invite you to a grievance hearing have a representative with you as your witness. Ask ACAS advice on what to say at the grievance. It’s just a procedure & shows a tribunal you’ve done everything properly. If you were to win a tribunal case the tribunal can deduct compensation for not following procedures. I have been on long term sick leave since my issues so I know how you feel. Are you on sick now with stress? 
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    I've already tried to raise a grievance, but both sides blocked me. One said I had to go to the agency the agency said why do you need to raise a grievance as we've already discussed it? I have spoken to ACAS and mentioned this and they said I don't have to send a letter of complaint outlining that they didn't put it in place for me any reasonable adjustments but like you said it can affect your claim. I have tried to ring the Equality people for the past couple of days but I keep getting we don't have enough agents please try later. 

    I do have a legal centre near me, I can only get half an hour appointment with them as they don't have the resources to be there through it all. I have my appointment next Friday, so I am holding off until I get that advise before proceeding with the claim.  And yes I was off work with stress and anxiety when they sacked me. I don't have an union I am afraid, so I guess I am going to have to go most of it alone.
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    That’s good that you tried to raise a grievance but were blocked. It shows a tribunal that you tried. Do you have their response blocking you in emails? That would be great evidence if so. If you can, ask if you can send evidence & your points of your case to the legal advice centre do they have the heads up on everything before your appointment next week. It’s good to hold off on your ET1 form until you’ve had legal advice. Very wise. You still have 3 months less 1 day to submit your ET1 so there’s no rush yet. How long was you working for the agency/bank? What reasonable adjustments did you ask them to make? 
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    sorry @shellbell20 I forgot to add you in to my above response x
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    @TG0601 No I wasn't blocked via email. I spoke to my TL on Skype and then subsequently to the agency via phone about taking the matter further to an email I had sent complaining about it all. I had already written an email of a complaint when it first happened and not only did I do that I forwarded it to both parties and then sent it to someone very senior.  Then I did a request for reasonable adjustments that was denied and they sacked me for asking.

    So I guess I have done it in reverse order.  The requests were simple ones, like asking for one to one training like someone else with disability gets, having the hold time longer whilst I was still in training, which my manager had already said, don't worry about the hold time we can appeal it and the final thing was the new law they plucked out of thin air about how many calls we suddenly had left.  I found out from a colleague today it's now either been extended or axed. So each thing I requested was doable and I have evidence to prove it for two out of the three requests I asked for.  

    When looking on here about reasonable adjustments there is a paper that someone has shared which states categorically that if you sack someone for asking for reasonable adjustments and they sack you then that is victimization.

    The Law Centre took all the notes from me yesterday, the person who took these notes was quite shocked of how blasé they have been  regarding the whole matter. 
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    @TG0601 I found this on Scopes website which talks about discrimination at work.  I feel this is my case really.  

    Victimisation – s27 This concept is the same in respect of all the protected characteristics. Essentially it occurs when a worker is punished or treated differently as a result of complaining about disability discrimination or complaining that the employer has not made reasonable adjustments. For example, a worker raises a grievance about disability discrimination and is dismissed as a result. It does not matter whether the worker raised the issue formally or informally, in a grievance or in a tribunal case, on his/her own behalf or on behalf of a colleague who is disabled. The employer has a defence if the worker’s allegation was false and made in bad fai
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    @shellbell20  Yes I’ve got victimisation & harassment cases as well as my disability discrimination case against my employer. It seems (without knowing the details of your issues) that you have a case for disability discrimination, failure to make reasonable adjustment & victimisation. Did they know you had a health issue? 
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    @shellbell20 it seems your requests were totally reasonable. Both companies will try to show your reasonable adjustment request weren’t linked to a disability. So you’ll have to show that they were directly linked. So you’ll have to show a comparator, someone else who has a disability like yours where reasonable adjustments were approved. Was the extra hold time needed to help with your disability also? & the calls? 
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    @TG0601 I think my requests were reasonable. I suffer from severe anxiety and to give me targets that are unachievable was too much for me. I broke down at my desk for four hours sobbing my heart out. Other people coped much better as they don't have a disability. It's a long story but these calls were impossible for a reason, they wanted me to take them and if I got a transfer call it would knock a call down from the ones I had left.

     Only transfer calls aren't counted towards accreditation, meaning if I got 8 transfer calls which can happen, I would be sacked for not getting the right calls. They set us up to fail.

    I have difficulty with concentration levels due to my anxiety and depression. I was having difficulty reading a few different texts due to this, so was a person with dyslexia only they were given one on one coaching. I was given nothing. I also was so scared that I couldn't do anything, I just froze. 

    As for linked to disability, they blatantly told me to get another job suitable to my needs and said with my mental health condition was it the right job for me as I would be talking to people who were vulnerable and depressed. I couldn't believe my ears to be honest.
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    @shellbell20 it sounds to me like you have a strong case. Mental health is a disability & covered by the equality act. Altering your hold time was doable & would give you time to do your work without as much pressure, which affected your anxiety. As was adjusting your calls. So they are saying anyone with mental health issues shouldn’t or can’t work in their contact centre! Terrible! They didn’t even try to see how you got on with the adjustments. They will play dirty & deny everything. No employer will accept & agree they’ve done wrong. So don’t take it personally when they disagree with all of your points in their ET3 response. It’s just disgusting that they have done this to you. You will have to do a schedule of losses. So keep notes on your financial losses since they sacked you. 
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    @TG0601 They told me to find another job that will suit my needs, how dare they!  I have around 7 years contact experience and as for dealing with vulnerable customers I use to be a nurse. Just because I suffer with Mental Health, doesn't make me incapable to help others. In fact the calls I did take were marked that I was really great a talking with people and showed deep empathy, so they can't fault me on my calls at all. In fact I won two awards whilst there and I was told I was a hard worker, one award was for my drive.  So yes, they are saying someone with Depression and Anxiety can't cope with this kind of work. Funnily enough I use to work for the same  bank on as a permanent member of staff for three years before we all got made redundant. My mental health wasn't a problem for them then and now it is.  Strange how that works.
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    @shellbell20 it’s just disgraceful. I really do hope you get the justice you deserve. Keep me updated won’t you on your meeting next week. It will be interesting to see if both our employers try to settle before a main hearing. I think mine will go all the way to main hearing though. Take care & please keep in touch. Anything I can do to help I will try my best x
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    @TG0601 They can't deny anything about sacking me or why, as they emailed me it when I said I couldn't talk on the phone due to my anxiety, thank God I did.  Nor can they dispute they suddenly changed the 16 call rule once I was sacked as that is in a text from a work colleague today who said why have I got more calls without getting sacked?

  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    @TG0601 They would be very stupid to go all the way, it costs at least £8000 for them to hire a solicitor to defend the case, then if they lose which I am sure they will the amount is unlimited for disability discrimination.   Not to mention the bad publicity that it will attract. As for my wages, well I have already lost a week or so being on the sick and then there is all the losses in the future because right now, there is just no way I can work with what they have done to my mental health with their insults and bullying tactics. I have lost what little self worth I had.
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    @TG0601 I will be following your case and being your advocate. When is it?
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    @shellbell20 I’m exactly the same. I can’t work because of what they’ve done to my physical & mental health. I’m still employed by them as I can’t walk out of my job. If I do I don’t know how long it will take me to get another job plus I won’t get any benefits for walking out of a job. They won’t finish me as they know that will be an unfair dismissal case on top of everything else, so I’ll be on long term sick until the main hearing & then god knows after that. My judicial mediation hearing is in a couple of weeks. It will be interesting to see how that goes. I don’t have to attend it but I’ve got nothing to lose by going through the judicial mediation. If nothing gets resolved it doesn’t go towards the main hearing, so we’ll see. Yes I’ll keep you updated also 👍
  • janer1967
    janer1967 Member Posts: 12,361 Disability Gamechanger
    @TG0601

    You can leave your job on medical grounds and then be eligible for benefits depending on your circumstances 

    I agree it isn't right for you to do that at this stage but just wanted you to know 

    You could also go for constructive dismissal if you feel you have no other alternative but to leave 

    But get legal advice 
    I have professional experience in HR within public,  private, and charity sectors.  If I can't help I will
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    @janer1967 thank you for that. If I didn’t live on my own I would definitely leave the job but I just can’t take the risk of having no financial help & possibly losing my home. It’s such a stressful time. I can’t wait until it’s all over as the effect on physical & mental health with these things is overwhelming 
  • janer1967
    janer1967 Member Posts: 12,361 Disability Gamechanger
    @TG0601

    I understand I was petrified when  I had to give up work I was a single parent and was distraught about how I would finance and provide 

    I did lose my home burt it was no longer suitable after I became disabled so I had to sell anyway as well as not being able to pay the mortgage 

    Ended up in social housing a brand new bungalow and love it 

    Financially I am better off 

    All I am saying is it can be scary 

    Also think about yourself and if you can really continue to work there 
    I have professional experience in HR within public,  private, and charity sectors.  If I can't help I will
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    @janer1967 thank you. You’ve been through a lot. I’m pleased things worked out better for you in the end. I am renting & just daren’t take the risk. At the moment I’m on long term sick & have no plans to go back. I just need the legal side over & then I can move on & put this whole upsetting episode behind me. 
  • janer1967
    janer1967 Member Posts: 12,361 Disability Gamechanger
    OK I get that bit I would suggest getting some benefit advice though and then you may see ot won't be as bad as you think 
    I have professional experience in HR within public,  private, and charity sectors.  If I can't help I will
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    @janer1967 I had to speak to the benefit office about is as I’m on full UC as
    my statutory sick pay ended at work a while ago. They said if I voluntarily leave I would lose my benefits. My solicitor has advised me to stay on long term sick for now. 
  • janer1967
    janer1967 Member Posts: 12,361 Disability Gamechanger
    If you leave due to illness that isn't the case speak to welfare rights not job centre 
    I have professional experience in HR within public,  private, and charity sectors.  If I can't help I will
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    @janer1967 thank you Jane. I’m going to stay as I am for now. As stressful as it’s been at least I have a roof over my head, UC keeping me ticking over & I’m off sick long term from work so I don’t have to go in or think about them. I couldn’t cope with the added worry & stresses of possibly losing benefits, my home & everything I have if I resign. It literally would send me over the edge. It’s the best option for now. I’ll see what happens at the judicial hearing & if nothing happens from that I’ll be off work until the main hearing in October at least. If I don’t win I’ll look into my options & next moves. But I won’t be ever going back there. That’s for certain. 
  • janer1967
    janer1967 Member Posts: 12,361 Disability Gamechanger
    Fair enough keep us updated and it's good you and shellbell  are both supporting each other 

    You both seem to have a good understanding of your rights and how it all works 

    Just give us a shout if you need anything 

    I worked in hr management for over 25 years and have lots experience 
    I have professional experience in HR within public,  private, and charity sectors.  If I can't help I will
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous

    @janer1967 I am pretty clueless to be fair, there so much to absorb such as the 12 week rule for agency staff.  My manager said to me via Skype they don't treat temporary staff the way they treat permanent staff,  which they should do. Pity Skype calls are not recorded, so much he said and I am sure he will deny it at any tribunal or any other staff that are permanent.  I've no idea how I would even call them as a witness or ask the court to do so, because I wouldn't know their address which the court seems to want.   I scrawl the internet everyday for similar cases, but so many cases. I guess the adrenaline from getting sacked and told to find something suitable has heightened my fight or flight reaction and right now I am in fight mode.  I will not go out without a fight and I will not give up until I fight for all people disabled who don't have a voice.
  • janer1967
    janer1967 Member Posts: 12,361 Disability Gamechanger
    @shellbell20 how long did you work for then b4 they dismissed you? 

    Half hour can be long time to get info you need as long as you prepare 

    Could you send them brief outline before the meeting at legal centre si they can read through first 

    Have all your questions prepared again could you email them before just so you get the most ou of your time 
    I have professional experience in HR within public,  private, and charity sectors.  If I can't help I will
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
     @janer1967 I worked there for 5 months, so I can't hold them accountable for unfair dismissal due to not having worked for the company for 2 years or more, but I can for disability discrimination. The legal centre took most of the notes pre the scheduled appointment. I am making bullet notes right now, so I don't leave anything out.  Thanks for you help though and reminding me about preparing before the zoom meeting.  Anything else that you have knowledge of would be much appreciated.
  • janer1967
    janer1967 Member Posts: 12,361 Disability Gamechanger
    OK yes your only option is disability discrimination  

    Unfortunately lots companies take people in temp or agency contracts si they can just get rid 

    Just ask me if you have any specific questions rather than me rambling on with what I think you need to know 

    I will try help if I can 
    I have professional experience in HR within public,  private, and charity sectors.  If I can't help I will
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    @janer1967 They probably do take them on to do that, yet they seem to think they can do what they please, when they please. However, under the 12 week rule for Agency workers they have to treat staff on a equal footing with pay and holiday entitlement. I am sure other rules apply, I know they do about personal bonuses for performance and I know it's going to get extended in the future. With that being said, even if the 12 week rule didn't apply they still have no right to do what they did to me when asking for reasonable adjustments.  There might be a sex discrimination rule here too, as a guy who had ran out of calls and should have been dismissed wasn't, he text me yesterday and said for some reason I have been given extra calls and I have no idea why. Although two of my female colleagues were sacked this week for running out of calls. I didn't run out of calls and I was nearly accredited, so they couldn't get me on that one.  Sorry rant over. lol
  • janer1967
    janer1967 Member Posts: 12,361 Disability Gamechanger
    No problem for the rant 

    I have worked as agency b4 and yes they do have to treat you same as employed 

    Keel up the fight 
    I have professional experience in HR within public,  private, and charity sectors.  If I can't help I will
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,532 Disability Gamechanger
    Over the years I’ve read lots of assertions of discrimination on here and the overwhelming majority simply aren’t. On this occasion I must say there seems a prime facie case to answer. 

    Worth noting that employers settle 90%+ cases before a hearing regardless of the belligerent noises they make beforehand. 
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    @janer1967 I will keep up the fight, though I feel they think I won't due to my depression and anxiety, so many cases go unheard as people are too ill to take on these huge companies. I feel they rely on that to get away with what they want. Personally, with this case I feel that after being blocked numerous times they were pretty vindictive when I caused waves and abused their authority of power.
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    @mikehughescq are you talking about @TG0601 case?   I would definitely agree on that. To deny them homeworking when they can be amenable just boggles my mind.  The car parking bit, I am not too sure on, but I do remember that I was allowed to park in the managers car park at night time (only)  when I suffered from what was suspected Menieres Disease (that was for the same bank) a few years ago. They never did come up with a diagnosis despite two years of investigation. I kind of learnt to live with that condition that includes dizzy spells, tinnitus and loss of hearing in my left ear. I do get attacks now and then, especially when my allergies are at their worse, but I never mentioned it in this job, nor did I mention my eyesight, nor did they ask or accommodate anything for people with similar ailments.
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    @mikehughescq yes disability discrimination cases are so complex. As well as disability discrimination & failure to make reasonable adjustments I have an harassment case too as I was treated appalling by the manager at my grievance hearing. Laughed & mocked at, belittled. To the point my union rep & the HR rep had to Intervene. All minuted too. My employers are now saying that staff had to pass 6 months audits to be enabled to work from home. My argument is how could someone shielding attain audits when they wasn’t there. Also my colleague was shielding, went back to work, didn’t feel safe & was allowed to work from home & only had 1 months audits done. I’ve got the evidence of that. So I have been treated so differently. They know that I am incapacitated most of the time & home working would be brilliant for me as I’d hardly ever have time off sick. They simply won’t allow it. Because I complained about my safety & was told by my union not to go into the office until I’d had a risk assessment & was safe, I believe I have been victimised too & that is also a reason I have been treated the way I have. I was bullied & harassed there because of my disability when I first started 4 years ago & I tried to sort it out via mediation. Then I didn’t pass probation due to my disability absence & was on probation 2 years 8 months. & threaten with the sack whilst in hospital 2 years ago via email. We are trying to show all of these are linked over the years. Hopefully a tribunal will agree 
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    @TG0601 Wow, your case goes on for several years, threatening the sack whilst in hospital, just boggles my mind.  I hope they are not stupid enough to take it to court, I think they have already put you through enough and I also feel there is a link from the past complaint. 
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,532 Disability Gamechanger
    I disagree re: complexity. Like most legal cases what appears complex essentially boils down to 2 or 3 simple points. I used to rep at ETs and have won 2 EA 10 cases of my own around reasonable adjustments.
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    @shellbell20 it’s been horrendous since I started. I transferred departments as a reasonable adjustment as the stress from the bullying & harassment from my 1st team leader made me so ill. Stress makes my Autoimmune condition worse & I become incapacitated so I was off 6 months after the mediation meeting. She told my team not to talk to me when I returned so I felt ostracised when I went back & didn’t know why no one was talking to me. I was due to have a back to work meeting but I was in hospital that day  having tests & seeing my Rhuematologist so I emailed work to say I may be a bit late for the meeting as my test & MRIs were taking so long. I asked if we could have the meeting later that day (out of politeness) as I didn’t want them sat waiting for me unnecessarily. The email came back that they would reschedule but if I didn’t attend they would have to formally review my employment. I cried my eyes out at hospital. The nurses consoled me. My rheumatologist was furious. Every time I was off sick they made me go back into the new starter dept but no one else had to, just me. There’s so much that’s happened. I could go on & on 
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    @TG0601 Sounds horrendous, that's what they do though, they ground you down until you quit. When mine started with the impossible targets and the lack of care, I reached out to a lawyer, however that lawyer could only really help people in London. He did however say to me, whatever you do, do not resign. I so wanted to resign, I have never been sacked in my life until now.  I don't know why he said not to resign?  Perhaps @mikehughescq might shed some more light on this?  And any insight about ET's would be much appreciated too.  
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    @mikehughescq forgive me, what’s EA? you’ve had 10 cases of your own?! Wow I’m 
    so sorry you’ve gone though so much. You have gained a lot of experience of the system! I won a disability discrimination case 20 years with a previous employer for being told at a promotion interview that no one would respect me because of my disability. It was a straight forward case. They had written it down on my interview scoring sheets that we found in the bin after my interview. This one I’m 
    going through is over a long period of time with many different episodes. @shellbell20 I have rheumatoid arthritis & vestibular neuritis so I get dizzy & lose balance so I can’t drive. When I’ve asked over the years fir car parking only when I needed it I was told no, spaces only for TLs & Managers. So when I struggled to walk in severe pain they wouldn’t help me. Such a shame. 
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    TG0601 said:
    @mikehughescq forgive me, what’s EA? you’ve had 10 cases of your own?! Wow I’m 
    so sorry you’ve gone though so much. You have gained a lot of experience of the system! I won a disability discrimination case 20 years with a previous employer for being told at a promotion interview that no one would respect me because of my disability. It was a straight forward case. They had written it down on my interview scoring sheets that we found in the bin after my interview. This one I’m 
    going through is over a long period of time with many different episodes. @shellbell20 I have rheumatoid arthritis & vestibular neuritis so I get dizzy & lose balance so I can’t drive. When I’ve asked over the years fir car parking only when I needed it I was told no, spaces only for TLs & Managers. So when I struggled to walk in severe pain they wouldn’t help me. Such a shame. 
    When I had the suspected Menieres   Disease the same company/bank were very helpful. When I worked nights they allowed me to park in carpark reserved for Managers that is when my dizziness had calmed down, as at first there was no way I could have driven.  However, when I worked in the day's I think I actually got a taxi via Access to Work, by this time I was having panic attacks when trying to take public transport and still had dizzy spells on and off. I would pay for it upfront for the transportation  and be compensated, if I can remember, it was around 2006, so quite a while ago.  I am sorry you are going through rheumatoid arthritis, I do have a touch of arthritis  through my psoriasis  and that can be very painful at times. 

  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    @TG0601 Actually the part about being stonewalled from your team, them not allowed to talk to you is disgraceful, absolutely abhorrent and could cause serious consequences to the wellbeing and mental health of a person. I had something similar but not being ignored being told I was not allowed to talk about anything going on. When I complained about the new rules and how I couldn't cope with them with my anxiety, not only did they block me from raising a grievance they rang me and said I was not to talk to anyone about the new rules, about what I was talking about with my TL, the agency or my TL's boss. They sent that via an email as well as verbally, basically telling me to shut up. I forgot about that, I should make a bullet point of it for the lawyer.
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    @TG0601 This case might be of interest to you regarding the disability parking space. I have only scanned through it, so apologies if it does not relate to your case.  https://www.crippspg.co.uk/accommodating-employees-disability-constitutes-reasonable-adjustment/
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    @shellbell20 Thank you. Yes it’s RA is an awful illness. My vestibular neuritis kicks in whenever I have a flare up. I get them all the time now. I don’t seem to have any reprieve from it. I’ve wanted to work from home for years but pre covid, home working was quite a rarity. When home working really took off around the country when the pandemic started I was so hopeful. It would have been the answer to so many issues I face when incapacitated etc. My sickness absence would have been practically been solved. I really was excited & uplifted at the prospect. When they denied me it I was absolutely crushed. Heartbroken. Dizziness & loss of balance is awful isn’t it. It’s like living in a parallel universe with everything moving & spinning. I have to drive 40 miles to my work so when I’m in flare I just can’t drive at all. It’s such a shame your company/bank changed how they treated you. It just doesn’t have to be like that, it should be so simple but some employers just make it impossible & unjust for so many. I’m sorry to hear you are suffering from psoriasis too. Autoimmune conditions are awful to cope with at times 
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    that’s great. Thank you so so much! My solicitor said they could have arranged a car parking space for me when I needed it. They have them for visitors to the office, clients (Banks) too. I also found case law of a chap who won his disability discrimination case for not passing his probation due to his disability absences during probation period. Case law is such a big help in building evidence. I really appreciate it 

    shellbell20 said:
    @TG0601 This case might be of interest to you regarding the disability parking space. I have only scanned through it, so apologies if it does not relate to your case.  https://www.crippspg.co.uk/accommodating-employees-disability-constitutes-reasonable-adjustment/

  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    Yes definitely bullet point that. I get that theres confidentiality but blocking you from raising a grievance is absolutely shocking. I’m sure they’ll have a grievance policy. They have well & truly breached it! shellbell20 said:
    @TG0601 Actually the part about being stonewalled from your team, them not allowed to talk to you is disgraceful, absolutely abhorrent and could cause serious consequences to the wellbeing and mental health of a person. I had something similar but not being ignored being told I was not allowed to talk about anything going on. When I complained about the new rules and how I couldn't cope with them with my anxiety, not only did they block me from raising a grievance they rang me and said I was not to talk to anyone about the new rules, about what I was talking about with my TL, the agency or my TL's boss. They sent that via an email as well as verbally, basically telling me to shut up. I forgot about that, I should make a bullet point of it for the lawyer.

  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    TG0601 said:
    Yes definitely bullet point that. I get that theres confidentiality but blocking you from raising a grievance is absolutely shocking. I’m sure they’ll have a grievance policy. They have well & truly breached it! shellbell20 said:
    @TG0601 Actually the part about being stonewalled from your team, them not allowed to talk to you is disgraceful, absolutely abhorrent and could cause serious consequences to the wellbeing and mental health of a person. I had something similar but not being ignored being told I was not allowed to talk about anything going on. When I complained about the new rules and how I couldn't cope with them with my anxiety, not only did they block me from raising a grievance they rang me and said I was not to talk to anyone about the new rules, about what I was talking about with my TL, the agency or my TL's boss. They sent that via an email as well as verbally, basically telling me to shut up. I forgot about that, I should make a bullet point of it for the lawyer.

    A confidentiality for telling people in my group what is going on in reality.  Everyone else was talking about it, I wasn't allowed too. I just feel I hit a nerve with them, made waves when questioning  the validity of their new rules and if they were politically correct, so they got rid of me, simple as.  I also was asking about holidays and again they had me going around in circles, my TL said something wasn't right about it, he would contact the agency, the agency were meant to ring me, they didn't, when I finally spoke to the agency about the new rules I mentioned the holidays and they told me to email a department within the company.  So all the time whatever I said or did, they just literally passed the buck to each other and had me like a shuttlecock in between. I still can't believe they can get away with it, it just made my anxiety go through the roof until I was so ill with it, I had to take sick leave and be prescribed sleeping tablets and anti-depressants. So here I am now sacked for fighting injustice, sacked for asking for reasonable adjustments, probably just sacked for being me.
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    @shellbell20 it really is disgusting what they’ve done to you. I’m sure you’ll get your justice. You have written evidence too which is great. They will pay the price & unfortunately for them they will learn the hard way. Where I work people get treated terribly. The turn over of staff is so high. The thing is most are too afraid to do anything about it. It’s a shame. I can’t sit back & let injustices happen, I’m just not made that way. A few years ago a collection of mine was being bullied (at another company). No one intervened but me. I couldn’t cope with what they were doing to her. I made myself a target but I’d do it all over again. She left in the end, walked out.
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    @shellbell20 sorry, typos! “A Colleague”. I’m not looking at what I’m typing lol 
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    @TG0601 How strange, when I first started this job we were advised to make  whatsapp chats when we were split into groups and the group I was in was victimising a colleague, calling this person vile names and purposely cutting him off when he was on Webex meetings, just saying dreadful things about him. I couldn't bear it any more and had to speak out. It was in black and white and the two main culprits were fired straight away as there was too much damning evidence against them. No one else intervened other  than copying the text and sending it to the victim, so they did that quietly. I reported it to a manager and then the victim sent  a copy of the text and a letter of complaint. I would do it again in a heartbeat too. The poor person was sobbing their heart out wondering why people that didn't know him would be so spiteful.

  • lisathomas50
    lisathomas50 Posts: 4,613 Disability Gamechanger
    We have a WhatsApp  group in my work but the manager is also on it  ours only used to update us on things or if we get stuck on something in work  it is quite good  and works well  
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    We have a WhatsApp  group in my work but the manager is also on it  ours only used to update us on things or if we get stuck on something in work  it is quite good  and works well  
    Wish that had been the case with this then the bullying and discrimination wouldn't have happened. It was absolutely dreadful behaviour.

  • lisathomas50
    lisathomas50 Posts: 4,613 Disability Gamechanger
    @shellbell20 it makes more sense to have the manager on there if it is for work then those things wouldn't happen 
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,532 Disability Gamechanger
    TG0601 said:
    @mikehughescq forgive me, what’s EA? you’ve had 10 cases of your own?! Wow I’m 
    so sorry you’ve gone though so much. You have gained a lot of experience of the system! I won a disability discrimination case 20 years with a previous employer for being told at a promotion interview that no one would respect me because of my disability. It was a straight forward case. They had written it down on my interview scoring sheets that we found in the bin after my interview. This one I’m 
    going through is over a long period of time with many different episodes. @shellbell20 I have rheumatoid arthritis & vestibular neuritis so I get dizzy & lose balance so I can’t drive. When I’ve asked over the years fir car parking only when I needed it I was told no, spaces only for TLs & Managers. So when I struggled to walk in severe pain they wouldn’t help me. Such a shame. 
    EA 10. The Equality Act 2010. Not 10 cases :)
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    @mikehughescq ahhh I get it now! :) I thought 10 cases was an awful lot 🙈😄 
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,532 Disability Gamechanger
    Have probably repped 30. Have taken 3 of my own and settled 2 of 3 for 4 figure sums before ET.
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    So good to hear you’ve had success. At ETs. Did you have judicial mediation before the main hearing? I’ve got mine in 2 weeks. My solicitor said it’s to discuss settlement. I compiled a schedule of losses for ACAS which included injury to feelings & injury to health. I used the vento bands as a guide. I went high vento band due to the longevity & amount of episodes. I didn’t even get a “sod off” just radio silence. So I’ve submitted the same schedule of losses to my solicitor for the judicial hearing. I’m not sure what to expect. I just hope my solicitor fights hard for me. mikehughescq said:
    Have probably repped 30. Have taken 3 of my own and settled 2 of 3 for 4 figure sums before ET.

  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    TG0601 said:
    So good to hear you’ve had success. At ETs. Did you have judicial mediation before the main hearing? I’ve got mine in 2 weeks. My solicitor said it’s to discuss settlement. I compiled a schedule of losses for ACAS which included injury to feelings & injury to health. I used the vento bands as a guide. I went high vento band due to the longevity & amount of episodes. I didn’t even get a “sod off” just radio silence. So I’ve submitted the same schedule of losses to my solicitor for the judicial hearing. I’m not sure what to expect. I just hope my solicitor fights hard for me. mikehughescq said:
    Have probably repped 30. Have taken 3 of my own and settled 2 of 3 for 4 figure sums before ET.

     @mikehughescq Perhaps you might be available to share some advice? I know I could do with some and would be exceedingly grateful. I have just been making notes,  for the half an hour law session I am receiving next Friday. I feel @TG0601 would also appreciate any advise from you too. 
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    @TG0601 To let you know I had a solicitors advise this morning. He feels I have a case for Disability Discrimination, Failure to make Reasonable Adjustments, Victimisation and also injury to feelings arising from the discrimination. I was going to go through ACAS conciliatory services, however when I asked the company to pay my SSP for the week I was off before they sacked me, holiday pay and the week's notice pay, they told me that I wouldn't get a week's notice pay as SSP supersedes my entitlement to a weeks notice of full pay.  They had me crying again, until I found out that is not correct. I can't negotiate with these people they think it's OK to make up the rules as they go along and they do it via email every time, so it's in black and white.  Now I have to fill in an ET1 form and I am pretty clueless as where to start, so going to have look online at videos and such.  
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    That’s great news. Although it was no surprise as I thought you have a water tight case. Yes there’ll be loads of help & support online re ET1. Did you have the meeting with the legal advice organisation? Would they be able to fill in the ET1 for you? 
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    @TG0601 To be honest it was only half an hour free advice from a solicitor which was extended to an hour. However, I am clueless about the ET1 and even more clueless about the compensation aspect of it all. The solicitor mentioned loss of earnings, injury to feelings, disability discrimination, victimisation and said I needed to think of a figure. I wouldn't know where to start and now since then there is unlawful deductions of wages to add to it.  No idea, I think my head is about too explode and that's before I even fill in the ET1 form.  Hmmm.
  • janer1967
    janer1967 Member Posts: 12,361 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi there 

    For the et1 use the principle of who   what , why   where,  when,  how 

    For each incident you are claiming for and then ref it to evidence you have 
    I have professional experience in HR within public,  private, and charity sectors.  If I can't help I will
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    @shellbell20 if you look online it shows you how to work out a schedule of losses. Once you get your head around it it’s not so bad to do. I did one & sent it to ACAS for early conciliation before my solicitor got involved. Use the Vento Bands for injury to feelings. That’s straight forward to work out. & don’t forget injury to health too. If you ring ACAS they may be able to direct you further on how to work out a schedule of losses. If you go to a free legal advice organisation they will do it for you too. Really good advice from @janer1967 too. Also reference each piece of evidence (emails etc ) in each point in chronological order. 
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    TG0601 said:
    @shellbell20 if you look online it shows you how to work out a schedule of losses. Once you get your head around it it’s not so bad to do. I did one & sent it to ACAS for early conciliation before my solicitor got involved. Use the Vento Bands for injury to feelings. That’s straight forward to work out. & don’t forget injury to health too. If you ring ACAS they may be able to direct you further on how to work out a schedule of losses. If you go to a free legal advice organisation they will do it for you too. Really good advice from @janer1967 too. Also reference each piece of evidence (emails etc ) in each point in chronological order. 
    Thanks I will look tomorrow. Sorry my head is all over the place, keep getting dizzy spells. It's just too much what they have done to my mental health and is now impacting my physical one too.
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    janer1967 said:
    Hi there 

    For the et1 use the principle of who   what , why   where,  when,  how 

    For each incident you are claiming for and then ref it to evidence you have 
    janer1967 said:
    Hi there 

    For the et1 use the principle of who   what , why   where,  when,  how 

    For each incident you are claiming for and then ref it to evidence you have 
    Sorry don't know why your quote copied twice can't seem to delete one of them. I do appreciate your advise, unfortunately I am getting really bad dizzy spells tonight and can hardly concentrate.  However, thank you so much for sending this information. Hopefully tomorrow when my dizzy spells subside I will be able to understand it.   I am not sure whether I use emails as prove or save those for my witness statements. I just find it such a minefield, but I want to get it right. I am guessing because they were basically laughing at me today saying they wont pay me a week's notice for dismissing me and then they suddenly did @ sign to say to people sort her wages out in other words they seemed to be joining people in the private email that shouldn't even know about what I was talking about, is a complete disregard for my privacy,  it's caused a terrible anxiety attack.   I guess I need to sleep and perhaps tomorrow I might be able to concentrate on what I am supposed to do.  
  • janer1967
    janer1967 Member Posts: 12,361 Disability Gamechanger
    No problem I'm not certain if you send evidence at this stage but you can say you have email evidence to back up your claim 
    I have professional experience in HR within public,  private, and charity sectors.  If I can't help I will
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    janer1967 said:
    No problem I'm not certain if you send evidence at this stage but you can say you have email evidence to back up your claim 
    Thanks Sweetheart, I have email evidence and chats from my work colleagues to back up my claims. It's bizarre I have quite a lot of evidence via chat or email. Conclusion is either they are not very astute when it comes to legal matters or they know something I don't.  Not about that, it's the way they have totally disregarded my feelings/and/or/disability. It amounts to shut up and put up and we don't really care one hoot about how you are feeling and the fact you are disabled.  
  • Tori_Scope
    Tori_Scope Posts: 6,088

    Scope community team

    How are you feeling today @shellbell20? I hope your dizzy spell has subsided, and you're feeling a little less anxious today?
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  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    How are you feeling today @shellbell20? I hope your dizzy spell has subsided, and you're feeling a little less anxious today?
    I am up and down to be honest. I just had a lovely lunch with my son and wife at a restaurant in Manchester that is ran by a Master chef winner, so that was nice. Had Caviar for the first time in my life, so great new experience. I will be honest with you, when I was work my anxiety went through the roof with the stress they put on me and now I have gone from high anxiety to quite deep depression, that also seems to be impacting me physically too. I get fed up of being me sometimes.
  • Tori_Scope
    Tori_Scope Posts: 6,088

    Scope community team

    The lunch sounds lovely @shellbell20 :) Wow- caviar! That is definitely an experience.

    Depression can definitely have physical symptoms. The NHS website outlines these can include:
    Physical symptoms

    The physical symptoms of depression include:
    • moving or speaking more slowly than usual
    • changes in appetite or weight (usually decreased, but sometimes increased)
    • unexplained aches and pains
    • lack of energy
    • disturbed sleep – for example, finding it difficult to fall asleep at night or waking up very early in the morning
    I think many people can relate to the feeling of being fed up to be themselves. It can sometimes feel like you just want to crawl out of your body and have a bit of a break, can't it?

    If I remember correctly, your last appointment with your counsellor was at the end of May- is that right? How did it go? Have you managed to go back and speak to your GP about how things have changed, and how you're feeling? I know asking for more help can be draining, but I do think you could benefit from some additional support.

    Are your family aware of how all of this has been impacting you?
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  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    edited June 6
    The lunch sounds lovely @shellbell20 :) Wow- caviar! That is definitely an experience.

    Depression can definitely have physical symptoms. The NHS website outlines these can include:
    Physical symptoms

    The physical symptoms of depression include:
    • moving or speaking more slowly than usual
    • changes in appetite or weight (usually decreased, but sometimes increased)
    • unexplained aches and pains
    • lack of energy
    • disturbed sleep – for example, finding it difficult to fall asleep at night or waking up very early in the morning
    I think many people can relate to the feeling of being fed up to be themselves. It can sometimes feel like you just want to crawl out of your body and have a bit of a break, can't it?

    If I remember correctly, your last appointment with your counsellor was at the end of May- is that right? How did it go? Have you managed to go back and speak to your GP about how things have changed, and how you're feeling? I know asking for more help can be draining, but I do think you could benefit from some additional support.

    Are your family aware of how all of this has been impacting you?
    I have most of those symptoms. When I was anxious I would pace, when it led to depression or was complemented by my depressive mood, I completely slowed down. Everything including showering, getting out of bed, sleeping, doing housework was a chore, still is. Sometimes I want to run away from myself but then I know I will go with myself if I run away, so it's a moot point to even try. I lost lots of weight, I don't tend to eat when I am depressed and then it affects my short term memory, I will make a cup of tea and forget I did it, put on something on the stove and forget that too. Can be quite dangerous to be honest.

    I did go back to my doctor after been given anti-depressants that were made me feel comatose. I said they were far too strong and even tried half a tablet and it was too much. So I asked to go down the hormonal route being a certain age, to see if that helps me.  Have to have blood tests first though and even that is an effort to pick up the phone and ring the hospital to make the appointment.  I just feel so low and have this sinking feeling half the time in the pit of my stomach.

    As for the counselling it ended and they say I can't have any more for at least 3 months.

    My family are aware of my Mental Health, have been for years, I feel I have let them down too.  Hmmm.


  • Tori_Scope
    Tori_Scope Posts: 6,088

    Scope community team

    Feeling 'slow' is a very common symptom of depression @shellbell20, so you're not alone in feeling that way. It can make it really difficult to get seemingly 'easy' tasks done. As you'll know, it's really important to stay fed and hydrated, especially when you're feeling unwell. Is it that you don't feel hungry, or do you find it difficult to muster the energy to prepare and eat food?

    You definitely haven't let your family down. Have they been supportive over the years? It can be difficult to find the right words for both the person living with the mental health condition and their loved ones- do you feel like you can talk to them when things get hard? Are they able to help around the house in terms of when you forget things are on the stove and so on?

    Antidepressants can take a while to work, and they can unfortunately make you feel a bit worse before they make you feel better. Have you considered trying a different kind of antidepressant, seeing as the change in dosage didn't help? Each one has different side effects and everyone reacts differently. 

    Are your family able to help you make the appointment for the blood tests? 

    That's frustrating regarding the counselling, but I hope you'll feel able to schedule in some more appointments after the 3 months have passed, should you feel you need them.

    I'm sure you're probably aware of their services, but I just wanted to remind you that you can always get in touch with a listening service if you feel as though you want to talk things through confidentially with someone who'll listen. You don't have to be suicidal to contact Samaritans (most people who call them aren't suicidal), and you can speak to them over the phone on 116 123 or via email at [email protected] If you prefer to chat over text, you can text SHOUT to 85258. The community is always here for you too, of course :) 
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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    janer1967 said:
    No problem I'm not certain if you send evidence at this stage but you can say you have email evidence to back up your claim 
    Thanks Sweetheart, I have email evidence and chats from my work colleagues to back up my claims. It's bizarre I have quite a lot of evidence via chat or email. Conclusion is either they are not very astute when it comes to legal matters or they know something I don't.  Not about that, it's the way they have totally disregarded my feelings/and/or/disability. It amounts to shut up and put up and we don't really care one hoot about how you are feeling and the fact you are disabled.  
    If a company did that to me, I would promptly seek legal advice with a view to taking them to the cleaners under the Equality Act for discrimination.

    Like I probably should for all 3 of the companies who rejected me last week.

    I can't help that I can't work 50 hours a week due to the carers, nor can I help that 100% of my customer facing retail experience comes from working in Charity shops, they're literally the only place that will take a guy like me on no questions asked apart from maybe a DBS check in some circumstances.

  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    janer1967 said:
    No problem I'm not certain if you send evidence at this stage but you can say you have email evidence to back up your claim 
    Thanks Sweetheart, I have email evidence and chats from my work colleagues to back up my claims. It's bizarre I have quite a lot of evidence via chat or email. Conclusion is either they are not very astute when it comes to legal matters or they know something I don't.  Not about that, it's the way they have totally disregarded my feelings/and/or/disability. It amounts to shut up and put up and we don't really care one hoot about how you are feeling and the fact you are disabled.  
    If a company did that to me, I would promptly seek legal advice with a view to taking them to the cleaners under the Equality Act for discrimination.

    Like I probably should for all 3 of the companies who rejected me last week.

    I can't help that I can't work 50 hours a week due to the carers, nor can I help that 100% of my customer facing retail experience comes from working in Charity shops, they're literally the only place that will take a guy like me on no questions asked apart from maybe a DBS check in some circumstances.

    I am sorry you are going through that.  I think you should seek legal advice and the reason I believe you should, is I don't feel companies should be able to walk over people with disabilities and play on their vulnerability. I also believe that if we don't make a stand, then nothing will change and the laws will just tighten up and be to the advantage of unscrupulous companies to the extent where it goes back to the days of "Master and Serf". I feel that is what is happening slowly with the working world. I also feel they know the law, but 99 per cent of vulnerable people cannot or don't want to fight against such big companies, so the companies become blasé and then start bending the rules.  If I win this case, I promise you if you need advice to help with anything concerning your fight for justice, I will be there.  
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    Feeling 'slow' is a very common symptom of depression @shellbell20, so you're not alone in feeling that way. It can make it really difficult to get seemingly 'easy' tasks done. As you'll know, it's really important to stay fed and hydrated, especially when you're feeling unwell. Is it that you don't feel hungry, or do you find it difficult to muster the energy to prepare and eat food?

    You definitely haven't let your family down. Have they been supportive over the years? It can be difficult to find the right words for both the person living with the mental health condition and their loved ones- do you feel like you can talk to them when things get hard? Are they able to help around the house in terms of when you forget things are on the stove and so on?

    Antidepressants can take a while to work, and they can unfortunately make you feel a bit worse before they make you feel better. Have you considered trying a different kind of antidepressant, seeing as the change in dosage didn't help? Each one has different side effects and everyone reacts differently. 

    Are your family able to help you make the appointment for the blood tests? 

    That's frustrating regarding the counselling, but I hope you'll feel able to schedule in some more appointments after the 3 months have passed, should you feel you need them.

    I'm sure you're probably aware of their services, but I just wanted to remind you that you can always get in touch with a listening service if you feel as though you want to talk things through confidentially with someone who'll listen. You don't have to be suicidal to contact Samaritans (most people who call them aren't suicidal), and you can speak to them over the phone on 116 123 or via email at [email protected] If you prefer to chat over text, you can text SHOUT to 85258. The community is always here for you too, of course :) 
    I don't like to burden my family. I have one son and he has his own life, although I am temporarily living with him and his wife. I  have decided to go to the USA to see my husband. Long story, was trying to sponsor him,(he is American) but that hasn't worked out, now I have lost my job. I did request time off work to see him after a severe tooth infection in April that had knocked me off my feet and even then they decided to make it difficult, each company saying ask the other one and never being able to book time off. No wonder I feel dizzy, I am like the tennis ball being whacked around.  I will be flying out next Monday just booked my flight.  At our  home in the USA there is total tranquility and peace, plus the added bonus of a cuddle from hubby. xx
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,532 Disability Gamechanger
    TG0601 said:
    So good to hear you’ve had success. At ETs. Did you have judicial mediation before the main hearing? I’ve got mine in 2 weeks. My solicitor said it’s to discuss settlement. I compiled a schedule of losses for ACAS which included injury to feelings & injury to health. I used the vento bands as a guide. I went high vento band due to the longevity & amount of episodes. I didn’t even get a “sod off” just radio silence. So I’ve submitted the same schedule of losses to my solicitor for the judicial hearing. I’m not sure what to expect. I just hope my solicitor fights hard for me. mikehughescq said:
    Have probably repped 30. Have taken 3 of my own and settled 2 of 3 for 4 figure sums before ET.

     @mikehughescq Perhaps you might be available to share some advice? I know I could do with some and would be exceedingly grateful. I have just been making notes,  for the half an hour law session I am receiving next Friday. I feel @TG0601 would also appreciate any advise from you too. 
    My only advice would be that this is simply not a case to run without representation.
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    edited June 7
    TG0601 said:
    So good to hear you’ve had success. At ETs. Did you have judicial mediation before the main hearing? I’ve got mine in 2 weeks. My solicitor said it’s to discuss settlement. I compiled a schedule of losses for ACAS which included injury to feelings & injury to health. I used the vento bands as a guide. I went high vento band due to the longevity & amount of episodes. I didn’t even get a “sod off” just radio silence. So I’ve submitted the same schedule of losses to my solicitor for the judicial hearing. I’m not sure what to expect. I just hope my solicitor fights hard for me. mikehughescq said:
    Have probably repped 30. Have taken 3 of my own and settled 2 of 3 for 4 figure sums before Perhaps you might be available to share some advice? I know I could do with some and would be exceedingly grateful. I have just been making notes,  for the half an hour law session I am receiving next Friday. I feel @TG0601 would also appreciate any advise from you too. 
    My only advice would be that this is simply not a case to run without representation.  


     I am not sure which case you are talking about, but I guess we both need legal representation. Unfortunately for myself I am stuck in a void as I earnt too much and I am not in a Trade Union, nor do I have legal cover under house insurance or such. I hope @TG0601 you have that support!  I know that I shall be penning my ET1 in the next 30 days, part of it  probably here and the other part from my home in the USA, where I might  actually take time to breathe and think clearly.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    edited June 8
    They said home working wasn’t available, however it was. When I asked again to work from home as my colleagues were able to, I was told my absence recorded was higher than there’s so I couldn’t.

    The key point of your situation is here. This sounds like a constructive dismissal. That's when employers try to fire someone based on discrimination, in a way that would break the anti-discrimination law (Equality Act 2010), but they can't be forthright about it because there could be repercussions, so they skirt around the rules (as a loophole) to create a reason for someone to be fired.

    An example of constructive dismissal is an autistic person who works in a supermarket or service industry, and their employer demands they turn up at work at 7am even though the employer knows the employee doesn't drive and the journey to catch a taxi or uber to work is long - while at the same time giving other employees the option to choose not to attend work at 7am. In this example which really happened, the autistic person thought that his manager wants to fire him for being autistic, but is using the late for work excuse as a pretext.

    Another example would be an employer or manager who wants to fire someone for a discriminatory reason, so to skirt around the Equality Act 2010, they promote someone without giving them the any training or the correct training, in order to set them up so they are eventually fired for bad performance or gross negligence. Or even better, have their work shift happen when inspectors like Trading Standards come into work. This happened to someone I know, and he wasn't sure what characteristic he was discriminated against for, as he has more than one minority status.

    I can't think of any more examples of constructive dismissal on the spot. So I suppose the best chances of winning the employment tribunal would be to prove that your manager or employer denied you reasonable adjustments (working at home) that were given to other employees.
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    @innocent21 thank you so much for your reply. My solicitor has made a case for indirect disability discrimination, direct disability discrimination, failure to make reasonable adjustments & harassment & victimisation. I also think I could have a sex discrimination case as I firmly believe the manager wouldn’t have treated a male the way he treated me in my grievance hearing. He laughed at me, mocked & demeaned me. So many incidents have happened over the last 4 years. It’s been appalling. Not passing my probation because of disability absence & keeping me on probation 2 years 8 months was the start. I’ve got case law of cases won just on that point alone. As I’m still employed by them but off long term sick (I won’t be going back whatever happens) my solicitor plans to discuss constructive dismissal at the judicial mediation, as I’ve said I have no faith or confidence in the company & I’ve been put in a position that I can’t ho back because of their treatment. You’re exactly right. Companies try to manipulate a situation to either sack or force an employee to leave. I was very much treated the way I was because they didn’t want me working there & was hoping I’d walk & get another job. 
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    edited June 8
    If you try to claim two characteristics as a basis for being discriminated against (sex and disability) instead of one (disability) it is likely that your legal case will collapse and be thrown out before the tribunal or the defendant found "not liable" as a tribunal verdict, because it will be seen to claim for two characteristics, that you are doing a frivolous lawsuit. According to government statistics, 14 million british people are disabled, 11 million are at working age, and 8 million of them are in work. This is with a 66.7 million population, whereas men and women make up 50% of the population.

    You've indicated that you're a woman. The burden of proving sex based discrimination compared to disability is much greater because men and women are more prevalent than disabled people, so it's much easier for an employer to say "I don't discriminate against women, because I hire lots of women and treat them respectfully, kindly and fairly and they are happy with the way I manage and communicate with them". It will be easy for your ex-employer to use other women he employs as an example as to why he has a good character to defend against accusations of discrimination whilst also preventing you and your solicitor from doing a character assassination. So to claim two characteristics instead of one, be ready of being accused of making a frivolous lawsuit not just by the defendant and his lawyer, but also by the impartial judge at the tribunal who will question you.
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,532 Disability Gamechanger
    Your case is clearly not being pursued on the basis of constructive dismissal and there appear to be sound legal reasons for that.

    1 - constructive dismissal is by far the hardest type to pursue and there are strict limits on compensation and some potentially fairly damaging offsets. A constructive dismissal win is a rare win indeed. Alternative grounds will almost always be sought.

    2 - discrimination cases are difficult, but not as difficult. There us no upper limit on the damages element and the bar for issues like harassment is surprisingly low. 

    The previous post about cases collapsing appears to be opinion dressed as fact. I have seen no such case(s).I suggest the poster post links relating to the “collapse” of such challenges bearing in mind that an ET is not a trial so cannot “collapse” in that sense and reports on such cases are unlikely to be public domain unless very high profile indeed as only the reporting of ET outcomes are public domain.

    EA10 explicitly addresses additive and intersectional discrimination and allows a person with more than one characteristic to either have them amalgamated as one or choose one or the other. I am unaware of any evidence that having two makes anything harder in your sort of case. 
  • janer1967
    janer1967 Member Posts: 12,361 Disability Gamechanger
    Personally I have took a back seat now in this thread as I feel some of the advice given will just be confusing these two members 

    I would advise strongly to follow the legal advice you have secured for yourself 
    I have professional experience in HR within public,  private, and charity sectors.  If I can't help I will
  • lisathomas50
    lisathomas50 Posts: 4,613 Disability Gamechanger
    Very confusing conflicting advice follow your legal representation  is the best thing to do 
  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    janer1967 said:
    Personally I have took a back seat now in this thread as I feel some of the advice given will just be confusing these two members 

    I would advise strongly to follow the legal advice you have secured for yourself 
    I tend to agree, not to the detriment of others who are  trying to help in their own way. I personally feel that I  am paddling with a hole in the boat, with a tidal wave approaching and crying out for help and nobody hears my  utter despair. 
  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    Thanks Mike. I concur with all of your points 👍 next week’s judicial mediation will be very interesting. 
    Your case is clearly not being pursued on the basis of constructive dismissal and there appear to be sound legal reasons for that.

    1 - constructive dismissal is by far the hardest type to pursue and there are strict limits on compensation and some potentially fairly damaging offsets. A constructive dismissal win is a rare win indeed. Alternative grounds will almost always be sought.

    2 - discrimination cases are difficult, but not as difficult. There us no upper limit on the damages element and the bar for issues like harassment is surprisingly low. 

    The previous post about cases collapsing appears to be opinion dressed as fact. I have seen no such case(s).I suggest the poster post links relating to the “collapse” of such challenges bearing in mind that an ET is not a trial so cannot “collapse” in that sense and reports on such cases are unlikely to be public domain unless very high profile indeed as only the reporting of ET outcomes are public domain.

    EA10 explicitly addresses additive and intersectional discrimination and allows a person with more than one characteristic to either have them amalgamated as one or choose one or the other. I am unaware of any evidence that having two makes anything harder in your sort of case. 

  • Tori_Scope
    Tori_Scope Posts: 6,088

    Scope community team

    Hi @innocent21,
    This sounds like a constructive dismissal. That's when employers try to fire someone based on discrimination, in a way that would break the anti-discrimination law (Equality Act 2010), but they can't be forthright about it because there could be repercussions, so they skirt around the rules (as a loophole) to create a reason for someone to be fired.
    This isn't quite right. ACAS outline that:
    An employee can make a constructive dismissal claim if they resign because they think their employer has seriously breached their employment contract.

    Examples could include:
    • regularly not being paid the agreed amount without a good reason
    • being bullied or discriminated against
    • raising a grievance that the employer refuses to look into
    • making unreasonable changes to working patterns or place of work without agreement
    It could be because of one serious incident or a series of things.

    Citizens advice go on to explain that:

    If your employer has done something that seriously breaches your contract, you might be able to resign and make a claim to an employment tribunal. This is called constructive dismissal.

    To be successful you'll need to prove your employer seriously breached your contract and that you resigned in response to it.

    Does that makes sense to you?

    If you try to claim two characteristics as a basis for being discriminated against (sex and disability) instead of one (disability) it is likely that your legal case will collapse and be thrown out before the tribunal or the defendant found "not liable" as a tribunal verdict, because it will be seen to claim for two characteristics, that you are doing a frivolous lawsuit.

    Do you have any evidence to back up this claim? 

    We ask that all members support statements with evidence from reputable sources, and refrain from presenting opinion as fact. You can read our house rules here if you need a reminder.


    I'm glad that you seem to have good legal representation @TG0601, and I hope that they're able to guide you through this process. Best of luck with your case :)

    You're not a burden @shellbell20, but I appreciate that you don't want to put too much strain on them. Was it this past Monday you were flying back?

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  • TG0601
    TG0601 Member Posts: 51 Connected
    Thank you so much Tori. I’ll update you after my judicial mediation hearing next week. I don’t think my employers will settle before the main hearing in October, but we’ll see 🙏Tori_Scope said:
    Hi @innocent21,
    This sounds like a constructive dismissal. That's when employers try to fire someone based on discrimination, in a way that would break the anti-discrimination law (Equality Act 2010), but they can't be forthright about it because there could be repercussions, so they skirt around the rules (as a loophole) to create a reason for someone to be fired.
    This isn't quite right. ACAS outline that:
    An employee can make a constructive dismissal claim if they resign because they think their employer has seriously breached their employment contract.

    Examples could include:
    • regularly not being paid the agreed amount without a good reason
    • being bullied or discriminated against
    • raising a grievance that the employer refuses to look into
    • making unreasonable changes to working patterns or place of work without agreement
    It could be because of one serious incident or a series of things.

    Citizens advice go on to explain that:

    If your employer has done something that seriously breaches your contract, you might be able to resign and make a claim to an employment tribunal. This is called constructive dismissal.

    To be successful you'll need to prove your employer seriously breached your contract and that you resigned in response to it.

    Does that makes sense to you?

    If you try to claim two characteristics as a basis for being discriminated against (sex and disability) instead of one (disability) it is likely that your legal case will collapse and be thrown out before the tribunal or the defendant found "not liable" as a tribunal verdict, because it will be seen to claim for two characteristics, that you are doing a frivolous lawsuit.

    Do you have any evidence to back up this claim? 

    We ask that all members support statements with evidence from reputable sources, and refrain from presenting opinion as fact. You can read our house rules here if you need a reminder.


    I'm glad that you seem to have good legal representation @TG0601, and I hope that they're able to guide you through this process. Best of luck with your case :)

    You're not a burden @shellbell20, but I appreciate that you don't want to put too much strain on them. Was it this past Monday you were flying back?


  • shellbell20
    shellbell20 Member Posts: 89 Courageous
    TG0601 said:
    Thank you so much Tori. I’ll update you after my judicial mediation hearing next week. I don’t think my employers will settle before the main hearing in October, but we’ll see 🙏Tori_Scope said:
    Hi @innocent21,
    This sounds like a constructive dismissal. That's when employers try to fire someone based on discrimination, in a way that would break the anti-discrimination law (Equality Act 2010), but they can't be forthright about it because there could be repercussions, so they skirt around the rules (as a loophole) to create a reason for someone to be fired.
    This isn't quite right. ACAS outline that:
    An employee can make a constructive dismissal claim if they resign because they think their employer has seriously breached their employment contract.

    Examples could include:
    • regularly not being paid the agreed amount without a good reason
    • being bullied or discriminated against
    • raising a grievance that the employer refuses to look into
    • making unreasonable changes to working patterns or place of work without agreement
    It could be because of one serious incident or a series of things.

    Citizens advice go on to explain that:

    If your employer has done something that seriously breaches your contract, you might be able to resign and make a claim to an employment tribunal. This is called constructive dismissal.

    To be successful you'll need to prove your employer seriously breached your contract and that you resigned in response to it.

    Does that makes sense to you?

    If you try to claim two characteristics as a basis for being discriminated against (sex and disability) instead of one (disability) it is likely that your legal case will collapse and be thrown out before the tribunal or the defendant found "not liable" as a tribunal verdict, because it will be seen to claim for two characteristics, that you are doing a frivolous lawsuit.

    Do you have any evidence to back up this claim? 

    We ask that all members support statements with evidence from reputable sources, and refrain from presenting opinion as fact. You can read our house rules here if you need a reminder.


    I'm glad that you seem to have good legal representation @TG0601, and I hope that they're able to guide you through this process. Best of luck with your case :)

    You're not a burden @shellbell20, but I appreciate that you don't want to put too much strain on them. Was it this past Monday you were flying back?


    Yes I am flying out next Monday, trying to get PCR test to fly is so complicated and expensive, but I need to see my husband. Work are still harassing me so I need to take a breather from all it as I am really finding their spitefulness hard to deal with. Just need calm and tranquility right now. Thanks for your kind words. x

  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Listener
    edited June 9
    I understand what you're trying to say @Tori_Scope

    because they think their employer has seriously breached their employment contract.

    If your employer has done something that seriously breaches your contract, you might be able to resign and make a claim to an employment tribunal.

    You quote this term employment contract.

    However I do not think it would be constructive to debate whether a constructive dismissal only consists of an employer breaking or suddenly changing an employment contract, as you claim. As if somehow if an employer manipulates a situation to create a situation that would cause or lead an employee to eventually become fired, that somehow it's magically not a constructive dismissal if the scenario never involved breaking or breaching a contract, or if the behaviour doesn't meet any of the bullet point examples you quoted from the website.

    That would be arguing over semantics or splitting hairs. Maybe it does or doesn't, but to make the distinction about whether the employer's behaviour has to break or spontaneously change the employment contract, for it to be legally classed as constructive dismissal, I'd rather not discuss that.

    So if the employer doesn't break or change the employment contract while being manipulative in this fashion, then it's legally allowed? ;)

    Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?
    What you are doing is looking at what the law and what the legal advice says, to then state that a person can use an employment tribunal to claim they were discriminated on multiple characteristics (in this woman's example 2) because the law and legal advice says that you can.

    In theory, theory and practise are the same. In practise they are not. However the criminal and civil justice system isn't black and white in how it's applied, there are shades of grey.

    The fact of the matter is that discrimination cases are notoriously hard to prove in a court of law or at a tribunal, and that most of the evidence that is used in such cases, it happens to be weak or circumstantial evidence, not concrete evidence. Most people who are discriminated at work in hiring and the workplace choose not to report it because they feel that having enough evidence to prove their case is difficult, with also the burden of proof required to guarantee a desired outcome is high, that it's not worth the effort to even take legal action in the first place.

    So with that said, it doesn't matter what the law says or what evidence is given, because most likely the evidence in employment tribunals are so weak that people will be able to use their own personal discretion to insert their own speculative opinions and personal biases into determining what things they believe and disbelieve, because the evidence given at the tribunal will be so weak anyway, so weak that they will be unable to make a clear cut judgement. Therefore overall, a lack of strong evidence creates a huge vacumn to be filled with speculative opinion and personal bias. The phrase "it's his word against yours" springs to mind.

    In courts and tribunals, people (eg. solicitors, lawyers, defendants) often do what's called a "character assassination" where they damage the reputation, character, cognitive abilities, finding discrepancies in their memory and trustworthiness of a person, in order to influence the outcome of a trial or tribunal. Although a character assassination isn't what people typically think of as evidence, all a person has to do is make another person LOOK bad, then that will cause the person who LOOKS bad to have their words carry less weight because the "seed of doubt" has been planted into people's minds.

    There has been lots of instances in the UK in courts and tribunals where people have been found innocent, guilty, liable or not liable, based on a character assassination influencing the verdict.

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