PIP report suggests 0 points in some areas. What should I do next? I'm already struggling with money — Scope | Disability forum
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PIP report suggests 0 points in some areas. What should I do next? I'm already struggling with money

Daisy12
Daisy12 Member Posts: 17 Connected
edited September 17 in PIP, DLA, and AA
Hi, I just received my report back from my pip review, I have mental health problems and scored no points on how it affects me, I am unable to go out alone due to panic attacks I also can't manage budgeting tasks without help but I received 0 points for this. I told the assessor I couldn't do these things but she's lied on the report saying I told her I had no problem going out. I never said this, and because I no longer have help from the mental health team and been referred back to my doctor's as I won't get better and mental health team can't help me the assessor now says I need no help so no points. So now will lose a lot of money which I already struggle with. I now feel even more depressed as don't know what I can do to get these points back as I don't agree with what the assessor said. Disgusting how they lie and then now they'll get away with it. Please could someone advise me what to do next. I've already taken DWP to tribunal twice and won and don't know if I can face it again also I have fibromyalgia so in a lot of pain. Sorry for the long post!!

Comments

  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,781 Disability Gamechanger
    HI,

    The HCP is not there to write what you say verbatim, it's to gather more information to support your claim. Once the assessment is done the HCP will write a report based on their opinion and is a recommendation.  The decision maker has been known to go against the report. Although there's nothing stopping you contacting the decision maker to put your point across before the decision's made, unless of course it's already been made. Once the decision's made, if you don't agree you can request the MR.
  • Cher_Inactive
    Cher_Inactive Posts: 4,414

    Scope community team

    Hi @Daisy12 How are you today?

    I'm sorry the assessors report showed less points than you believe you deserve.  As @poppy123456 said, this doesn't mean the decision maker will necessarily go ahead with the recommendations put forward, but I appreciate it can be frustrating and upsetting to read.  If it's the case that you don't receive the PIP award expected then you can get help from a welfare representative so the pressure is less on you and you get the specialist input needed.  To access this, visit the Advice Local website, entering your postcode and 'Welfare benefits' from the drop down list, which will then bring up the details of free, independent organisations on the next screen.

    Also, I'm sorry reading the report has impacted your mood.  Are you in regular contact with your GP about managing this, and do you have support from anyone around going out?  Please consider speaking with your doctor about your depression if you've noticed a worsening so they can be there to lean on and guide you through this difficult patch.

    If you have any other questions or we can help in any way, do let us know.  Take care and I hope the week ahead treats you well.
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  • Daisy12
    Daisy12 Member Posts: 17 Connected
    Thank you for the good advice I have received. How do I contact the decision maker please. I had the phone assessment last Monday and assessor said I attended the assessment on my own? So I can go out on my own. ( You just couldn't make it up). I will keep fighting and will never give in to evil DWP.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,781 Disability Gamechanger
    It's DWP/PIP you'll need to ring and ask for the decision maker to contact you. Telephone: 0800 121 4433 Either that or put it in writing and send it to DWP but doing it this way the decision maybe made before the letter reaches them because of the postal backlogs.
    I see that you've already been to Tribunal twice so it's likely that you haven't gone into enough of detail with your claim pack.  (the actual form)
  • Daisy12
    Daisy12 Member Posts: 17 Connected
    I have usually had citizens advice help fill my form out in the past but this time I had to struggle myself because cab not doing face to face appointments at the minute but they did email me and tell me what to put. There has been no change to my mental health from last time. But because I've been discharged back to my doctor's the assessor decided herself that I am now better because I've been discharged back to my doctor's even though they have all this information about the problems I have and nothings changed. I wrote no change on my form. And they still ignored this  also she lied, I told her I still have the same problems and she's wrote I said I didn't have any. Disgusting really how they lie and get away with it. If I've been discharged from mental health team how am I supposed to get evidence to say they can't help me as they can do no more for me? 
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,781 Disability Gamechanger
    edited September 14
    Daisy12 said:
     I wrote no change on my form. And they still ignored this
    This would be your problem . What you're saying is there was no change to a decision that was made by DWP in previous claims, despite having been to Tribunal twice. You should never assume they have all the information and all claims should be treated as new claims.
    The best evidence you can send is your anecdotal evidence, 2 real life examples of what happened the last time you attempted that activity for each descriptor that applies to you.
  • Daisy12
    Daisy12 Member Posts: 17 Connected
    So all these pip review forms are a con then as they ask if there's been no change. I answered this truthful. So what else am I supposed to say or do, they've got pages of evidence I sent this time and all my doctor's notes I sent this time so all new evidence so if that's not enough then what is. No wonder they want discharge letters so they can take points off you and then make out you're now better when you're not.
  • MarkM88
    MarkM88 Member Posts: 1,803 Pioneering
    Your mean to treat it as a new claim basically. 
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,781 Disability Gamechanger
    I don't see any con in the forms. Yes, they ask if there's been any change but it also asks you how you manage that acitivy now. The problem here is your claim pack.
    There's no point sending huge amounts of evidence if it doesn't state exactly how your conditions affect you. You should look through it all  before sending it and ask yourself will this be useful.
  • Daisy12
    Daisy12 Member Posts: 17 Connected
    Yes I did check all this paperwork before I sent it. I'm not just going to send a load of paperwork thats not relevent. I'm commenting no more on here.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,781 Disability Gamechanger
    edited September 14
    Daisy12 said:
     I'm commenting no more on here.

    I'm sorry you feel that way but i'm only trying to help. If i advised you that it was ok to just put "no change" that wouldn't be right. I'm here to help others, not give them incorrect advice.
    I had my review a few months ago and returned my forms in June. The only "medical" evidence i sent was my repeat prescription list. The rest was my anecdotal evidence, which was one A4 side of paper with 2 real world examples. I had a paper based assessment and the decision was my award stayed the same.
  • carlea68
    carlea68 Member Posts: 6 Courageous
    Hi Daisy, I also put no change to my whole form, I didn't have to see an assessor and nothing has changed. I still receive the exact same amount of money. I have not seen a doctor in over a year as I put on my form the last time that the doctor told me I just had to get on with it. (Which they did).  Do as Poppy says and contact PIP tell them what the mental health team has said and if you lose money put in that appeal.  Don't let them win. You can do this you are stronger than you think. Good luck
  • onebigvoice
    onebigvoice Posts: 184 Courageous
    edited September 15
    HI,

    The HCP is not there to write what you say verbatim, it's to gather more information to support your claim. Once the assessment is done the HCP will write a report based on their opinion and is a recommendation.  The decision maker has been known to go against the report. Although there's nothing stopping you contacting the decision maker to put your point across before the decision's made, unless of course it's already been made. Once the decision's made, if you don't agree you can request the MR.

    Moderator note: This post contains opinions that may give others an incorrect impression of how assessment processes work. You should always refer to trusted sources when presenting your thoughts on such a sensitive subject, even if what you say is just your opinion.

     Hi poppy123456,
      Just a few points of my opinion,
    1.  The HCP is there to write a report on behalf od the DWP and gather information for the Decision Maker,
    2.  The Decision Maker will sometimes rubber stamp what the Assessors says, since the Decision Maker has no medical background, that is why the assessment company is being used , "  Form their Medical Expertise. " yes its not a " medical examination " but the information you send in may and normally is not able to be read by people with no medical background.
    3.  This is why when sending medical information, support letters from people that treat you and your prescription list would require some medical knowlege as to the interaction of drugs you take and their long term effects, of either a " fix " or other issues that may arrise from prolonged use.
    4.  This is why reviews of your prescription list are required for your benefit and to see if the dosage is correct for you.
    5.  Since the report is based on their own opinion it has to be justified even to the Decision Maker as he may rely on this report not to suport your claim but reduce your benefits or stop and remove benefits because you are now managing on your treatment now.
    6.  Since the assessor is being paid for the report to be given about you, it no long becomes an opinion, and unless they forefill the DWP contract of supplying supporting evidence when it is used to increase or reduce your claim it should not be used.
    7.  It remains an opinion even after all this since any report written about you " medically " must be entered into your medical files.  Yes I have stated that its not a medical but an access to benefits interview, but this only applys to the DWP NOT the assessment company, since if they were qualified to understand and report on the things that you send in then they also come under the " duty of care " and are being PAID by the DWP/PIP's or ESA for their expertise, which allows you to see the report, which never happens unless you ask for a M R, because in receiving the report it bares no resemblence to you or the interview you had.
      Sorry its still my opinion and has been used by me since 2002.when its was DLA.  Mistakes are still being made and receiving yet again a SARS request of over 1000 Pages of medical information sent by me to them and they say they lost, (at a cost of £68 ) this says different,  They have attached an appology letter and offered money for their poor standards to me, when all I originally wanted was for them to show their supporting evidence when they removed my benefits.
      Instead ( shown in the bundle ) when they say they lost or did not receive 2 recorded delivery letter, an interdepartmental email please remove all medical files before this date ( date shown ) from his files as they were sent to the wrong files and person.  17 years of medical files removed to complement their decision to stop benefits but they should have realised I have the originals.  
  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    @onebigvoice - I've always been a firm believer in keeping things concise and relevant. This makes it easier for whoever reads your application - whether for benefits, a job application, or anything else - to give you what you want.

    I'm sorry that they've lost the 1000 pages of medical evidence, and gald that they've apologised to you.

    I'm curious to know - did you think anyone would read all of your submission? I don't believe that I would if I were one of the decision makers..

    Good luck....
  • Ross_Scope
    Ross_Scope Posts: 4,955

    Scope community team

    Hi @onebigvoice

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience, and I'm sorry to hear that they lost your information. I acknowledge that you claim all of what you say to be your opinion on the subject rather than fact, however we must be careful not to let opinion potentially give others incorrect information or the wrong impression of how the process works. For example, this page states that the DWP will not charge people for accessing the data that they hold on them. If you were charged, that shouldn't have happened.

    Furthermore, regarding your thoughts on HCPs - they do not require any medical knowledge as part of the assessment, and do not write up any reports in the way you imply in your post. Additionally, the HCP's report will not be placed into anybody's medical records. I'm not sure what caused you to be of the opinion that they were carried out in this way, but please remember where possible to include sources (or other kinds of evidence) for any assertions that you make that could potentially come across as misinformation to others, even if you are just sharing your opinion on the topic as you state.
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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Connected
    I'm sorry this has happened to you @Daisy12 I had the same sort of problem but only I did get points but not for my mental health problems, everything was switched to being about my physical health for some odd reason and my award was dropped.

    My review was poorly handled from start to finish (I won't go into that but I made complaints), I ended up having to appeal where it was overturned (without having to have the appeal), I was awarded for another 5 years.
  • Daisy12
    Daisy12 Member Posts: 17 Connected
    @Amathyst, I'm going to do a mandatory reconsideration as I'm not happy with the assessor thinking I'm now better as been discharged from mental health team, I am going to write and say my mental health isn't better just because I've been discharged back to my doctor's as nothing more can be done and I've lost a lot of points, also she lied on her report, I don't think my assessment was handled very well but I don't want to go back to tribunal again but I don't believe that the assessor or decision maker should be allowed to get away with not putting correct information as I said nothing has changed on my review and I believe it should mean just that.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,781 Disability Gamechanger
    If you're not happy with the deicison then yes request the MR but you shouildn't concentrate on the report because this isn't going to get you a PIP award.
  • Cress
    Cress Member Posts: 937 Pioneering
    edited September 17
    @Daisy12
    Everyone gets discharged from the mental health team at some point...they're there to assess, recommend treatment and/or therapy and then you're referred back to your gp.
    I was under the mental health team for about 18 months then again for about 2 years.
    My last appointment I was told I wasn't going to get any better, prescribed diazapam along with my other meds and told to ring the crisis line if needed.
    Also to contact mind to see how much longer I might have to wait for councelling.

    It certainly doesn't mean you no longer have any problems.
    Good luck..
  • Daisy12
    Daisy12 Member Posts: 17 Connected
    I've never done a pip review before. I put no change for some questions so maybe I should've put more information as the assessor had read my previous assesment and then compared it with this new assessment and kept saying I have now been discharged back to my doctor's which she's scored me less points and thinks I no longer need any help for some things I previously got more points so now been awarded lower points for my whole award. I've been to tribunal for pip a couple of years ago as I got  no points but went to tribunal and won also had same with ESA and again got awarded at tribunal.
  • janer1967
    janer1967 Member Posts: 12,274 Disability Gamechanger
    You should always treat a review as a new claim even if there is no change 

    Give details for each descriptor about how you are affected 
    Here to help with my experience in hunan resources and employment rights 
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,781 Disability Gamechanger
    The HCP doesn’t award points. They make recommendations only. The decision maker looks at all the evidence, including your form, the evidence you sent and the assessment report. From this they make their decision. Have you had the decision yet? 
  • Daisy12
    Daisy12 Member Posts: 17 Connected
    I was told over phone that I've got highest rate care but only 4 points for mobility so I'm waiting for the letter still to see which areas I've been awarded points.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,781 Disability Gamechanger
    What award did you previously have?
  • chiarieds
    chiarieds Community Co-Production Group Posts: 10,531 Disability Gamechanger
    Hi @Daisy12 - I'm ever so sorry your review wasn't as expected. I know many of us have had assessor's reports that hurt; it's not that your disabilities weren't believed about, rather you didn't give the detail that a PIP review needs, as with an initial claim in some instances. The assessors do some unfortunate 'cut & paste' answers, that often bear no resemblance to how you are. For example I got because I didn't see 'a pain management nor physiotherapy specialist,' I could walk further without being in pain than I'd stated. Now that's a bit odd, as I am a physio., so that was easily refuted with a Mandatory Reconsideration. Not so easy for others.
    With your review, putting 'no change,' as you mention, you should have given more detailed info....treating it as a new claim, & giving those so important detailed responses. With my problems I haven't seen my GP for about 3 years, & my specialists gave up on me long before that as they were unable to help, so medical evidence doesn't always help, rather your own is more important. 
    Please know that everyone here's trying to help from their knowledge, understanding, & personal experience.
  • Daisy12
    Daisy12 Member Posts: 17 Connected
    I did get high rate care before and no mobility but I was told over the phone I've got same award as last time but I should've got the mobility part this time as I'm unable to walk without my son helping me but I will check the award notice when I receive it  and I will compare it with the last one and I will do a mandatory reconsideration. I have a better idea now as what I will need to do when I receive a review form in future.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,781 Disability Gamechanger
    Although you're not happy, the good news is that you've kept the same award and that's a good start. For the daily living part, you've already got the highest award so it doesn't matter what points you scored or whether you didn't score the same points as you previously did. Even at Tribunal once they reach 12 points they stop because that's how many points is needed for Enhanced. 
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,476 Disability Gamechanger
    edited September 17

    Moderator note: This post contains opinions that may give others an incorrect impression of how assessment processes work. You should always refer to trusted sources when presenting your thoughts on such a sensitive subject, even if what you say is just your opinion.

     Hi poppy123456,
      Just a few points of my opinion,

    2.  The Decision Maker will sometimes rubber stamp what the Assessors says, since the Decision Maker has no medical background, that is why the assessment company is being used , " 
     

    Whilst I think the moderator note is useful I think it’s even more useful to counter with slightly better informed opinions.

    So, this is riddled with assumptions which don’t stand up to analysis. 

    A DM cannot “rubber stamp” anything. The implication is that a HCP has made a decision which a DM simply goes along with. This is untrue because no HCP makes a decision. They make a recommendation. Nothing is ever followed slavishly simply because a DM must read and weigh all the other evidence before deciding which, on balance (and it is absolutely a balance). 

    They do not go with the recommendation because they have no medical background. It bears repeating forever until it eventually sinks in that the HCP assessment is not a medical assessment and the PIP decision is not a medical one. A DM could not possibly make a “medical” decision. There is no such thing. They are making a decision on whether to award a benefit. That does not involve deciding on diagnosis, treatment or prognosis.
    3.  This is why when sending medical information, support letters from people that treat you and your prescription list would require some medical knowlege as to the interaction of drugs you take and their long term effects, of either a " fix " or other issues that may arrise from prolonged use.

    This assumes that medical information is relevant for a benefit which is non-medical. A basic error once again. 

    Even if such things helped, which they do in very very limited circumstances, the idea that medical knowledge would be necessary to talk about drug interactions and impacts completely misses the point that PIP, like all disability benefits, requires no diagnosis and no explanation at all about where symptoms come from. 

    All that is required is that symptoms are accepted as real. That’s pretty much a given in every PIP case although social media and sites like this are full of people convinced that some aspect of their diagnosis, treatment or symptoms has been challenged by DWP when in fact all DWP are usually saying is that they accept diagnosis etc. but simply don’t accept you can’t perform activities reliably. That’s refuted by detailed anecdotal evidence rather than medical evidence.

    4.  This is why reviews of your prescription list are required for your benefit and to see if the dosage is correct for you.
    Anybody want to guess what this means? Prior to claiming PIP you do not need your prescription checked. No-one will check your medication levels when you claim PIP.

    5.  Since the report is based on their own opinion it has to be justified even to the Decision Maker as he may rely on this report not to suport your claim but reduce your benefits or stop and remove benefits because you are now managing on your treatment now.
    Ditto this. It makes no sense at all. HCP recommendations are evidenced by the contents of the report they write. The decision on whether a recommendation is justified is for the DM alone and does not depend on the extent a HCP has “justified” a decision within the report. It depends on the credibility of the other evidence presented.
    6.  Since the assessor is being paid for the report to be given about you, it no long becomes an opinion, and unless they forefill the DWP contract of supplying supporting evidence when it is used to increase or reduce your claim it should not be used.
    This is comic genius. A paid report should apparently not be used because it’s not a valid opinion when it’s paid for. Presumably then those of you who paid for a letter from your GP will need to bear this in mind as will those of you referred to private consultants. Then again those free reports by those same people are actually paid for by your taxes so we’d best disregard those too. If your GP refers you to a specialist we’ll need to bear in mind that payments change hands for that to happen and disregard those opinions too. 
    7.  It remains an opinion even after all this since any report written about you " medically " must be entered into your medical files.  Yes I have stated that its not a medical but an access to benefits interview, but this only applys to the DWP NOT the assessment company, since if they were qualified to understand and report on the things that you send in then they also come under the " duty of care " and are being PAID by the DWP/PIP's or ESA for their expertise, which allows you to see the report, which never happens unless you ask for a M R, because in receiving the report it bares no resemblence to you or the interview you had. 
    This guff, and I’m sorry but that’s the politest thing I can say about it, is barely in English but nevertheless pretty much pasted from a post by the same poster on an earlier, also censured, thread. It made no sense there. It makes no sense here.

    Anyone want to guess what the assertion that medical reports must be entered into your medical files means? Me neither. 

    I wish I could express some surprise this poster had their benefits removed. I cannot. The fact they seem to present themselves as a representative of others is well, shall we go with “disconcerting”. Yeah that seems restrained enough. 
  • Daisy12
    Daisy12 Member Posts: 17 Connected
    What I can't understand is it said on my previous report I needed prompting for certain activities and I got awarded the correct points then now because I've been discharged back to the doctor's as nothing more can be done the assessor seems to think I am now better and can now do these activities with no prompting and this is not true I still need the same amount of help and I've said there has been no change. Also the assessor has lied saying I told her I could go out alone. I never said this. I think these assessments should be recorded. Now I have not been awarded the mobility part but I'm going to fight it. I just think they hope people won't bother. Assessor also said my medication dose isn't high enough. And also because I held phone up to my ear for the assessment I don't need help washing my hair. I had no choice to hold the phone up I had to swap hands as was in pain and she wrote this down. Unbelievable some of these assessors.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,781 Disability Gamechanger
    You are talking about the report, you haven't yet seen the decision letter. The medication and washing your hair are both part of daily living, which you already have the highest possible award. It doesn't matter how many extra points you could have scored you can't have any higher award so it's a waste of your time and their's mentioning anything about the daily living part.
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,476 Disability Gamechanger
    Daisy12 said:
    What I can't understand is it said on my previous report I needed prompting for certain activities and I got awarded the correct points then now because I've been discharged back to the doctor's as nothing more can be done the assessor seems to think I am now better and can now do these activities with no prompting and this is not true I still need the same amount of help and I've said there has been no change. Also the assessor has lied saying I told her I could go out alone. I never said this. I think these assessments should be recorded. Now I have not been awarded the mobility part but I'm going to fight it. I just think they hope people won't bother. Assessor also said my medication dose isn't high enough. And also because I held phone up to my ear for the assessment I don't need help washing my hair. I had no choice to hold the phone up I had to swap hands as was in pain and she wrote this down. Unbelievable some of these assessors.
    The HCP will not have sight of your previous report so they have no context unless you gave it them in detail in your latest form. It’s not an unreasonable inference they’ve drawn but it only sticks if you didn’t address it in your form. That’s the issue.

    You cannot legally prove a HCP lied so you need to let go of that immediately. You can only assert that it’s factually inaccurate. However, you also need to bear in mind that their role is not to repeat what you say but to assess. The fact you assert you cannot go out alone is neither here nor there, If the evidence as a whole does not support your assertion then they can assert otherwise. 

    Recording an assessment really wouldn’t help. Successful PIP claims are ultimately about your evidence not theirs and neither DWP nor HMCTS have the technology to be able to guarantee to hear such recordings. An absolute waste of time and money. Get your own ducks in a row and it won’t matter. 

    I’m afraid, again, I don’t think the inference from the HCP about hair washing is unreasonable at all. Holding a phone up is different in several ways to physically washing your hair. If you’ve not laid that out in your form then they will absolutely draw the inference you describe. Far from “unbelievable” really.
  • Daisy12
    Daisy12 Member Posts: 17 Connected
    @mikehughescq Assessor had checked my previous report as they have said this in my recent report as they noted I need prompting for most things as this is what was said in my previous report. And as I said because I've been discharged back to my doctor's the assessor said I now don't need prompting anymore even though I said things are still the same. She lied saying  that I said I could now go out on my own. I never said this. I said I still couldn't do this so I stand by what I say and yes they should record assessments and assessors should get in trouble for lying as if it was other way round we would. Thanks to her I'm going to have to fight for some of my award back. It's bad enough being ill without having to fight to get back what we should've got to start with.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,781 Disability Gamechanger
    edited September 18
    Daisy12 said:
     Thanks to her I'm going to have to fight for some of my award back.
    You haven't lost any of your original award though because you still have the highest daily living award which is Enhanced and for this, there's nothing to fight for.
    I understand you're not happy because you weren't awarded any mobility but think you should be entitled to som, so yes request the MR for that only. 
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,476 Disability Gamechanger
    Your HCP may have said that they looked at your previous report but it’s a tad naive to believe that they did. Once that original report was sent to DWP the AP will have closed it off and the file is disposed of, usually inside 6 or 12 months. I’d put my money on you having mentioned the report rather than them having g read it. 

    It also bears repeating. You cannot prove the HCP lied and of you make the assertion in that language it will potentially damage your credibility and your case. Thousands have tried. All have failed. You cannot legally prove a lie. Merely a factual inaccuracy.
  • Daisy12
    Daisy12 Member Posts: 17 Connected
    @mikehughescq, how can you say I'm being a tad naive? You don't even know me or anything about my report. Nothing. How could the assessor possibly know I needed prompting if they hadn't looked at my previous report? They obviously got this information from there as they wouldn't have known this. I also just made a comment on the assessor lying as they have done, I'm  quite aware that DWP won't do anything about this and it's difficult to prove if I did make a complaint but  it's now cost me some of my award so now going to have to fight to get this back. So I think I've every right to my own opinion. Like anyone else.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,781 Disability Gamechanger
    Daisy12 said:
    it's now cost me some of my award so now going to have to fight to get this back. So I think I've every right to my own opinion. Like anyone else.

    No they haven't because you have the same award you had previously. Or am i missing something here?
  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    @daisy12 - Be careful that you don't lose sight of what you are trying to achieve.

    As others have said what the assessor did or didn't say isn't really relevant. It's annoying if the report contains innaccuracies. It happened to me and I became obssessed with this instead of concentrating on something more positive. Looking back I should moved on.

    Maybe leave it for a few days and come back to it.

    You say that there is "no change" to your mental health but there will be a lot of change to your original application. The examples that you gave originally to support will be quite old and you could easily be replaced by something more recent.

    I hope this is helpful.
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,476 Disability Gamechanger
    edited September 19
    Daisy12 said:
    @mikehughescq, how can you say I'm being a tad naive? You don't even know me or anything about my report. Nothing. How could the assessor possibly know I needed prompting if they hadn't looked at my previous report? They obviously got this information from there as they wouldn't have known this. I also just made a comment on the assessor lying as they have done, I'm  quite aware that DWP won't do anything about this and it's difficult to prove if I did make a complaint but  it's now cost me some of my award so now going to have to fight to get this back. So I think I've every right to my own opinion. Like anyone else.
    I can say that because you are. The HCP will not have had access to a previous report for the reasons I have explained. You have simply guessed. They will maybe have known the basis for any previous award because the existing award is always flagged. No more no less.

    You clearly don’t understand the process you are involved in and, as suggested by others, need to pause and get to grips with some basic things about PIP. So, for example, DWP will not do anything about the alleged lies of a HCP not because they’re not bothered but because it’s nothing to do with them. They contract an AP to do the assessments so any complaints you have would be directed to the AP not the DWP.

    Its not “difficult” to prove a lie. It is impossible. You seem more motivated to prove this point than you do to actually get the correct entitlement so, again, time to take a step back. If the HCP report is the focus of any further challenge you risk screwing up the award you do have through not really knowing what you’re doing or why. 

    Nobody has a “right” to an opinion. That is not a right we have. You perhaps have a responsibility to yourself and others to have an informed opinion but that is something which consistently escapes most people nowadays so hey ho. Even having an informed opinion doesn’t give you a “right” to express it. However, we’re on a public forum. You have expressed your opinion and I have expressed mine. If you don’t like that then you are of course welcome to ignore the advice; select my account to ignore etc. However, please don’t assert that you know what your HCP did and why. That is clearly not the case.

  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    @mikehughescq …I’m reluctant to disagree with you because you are obviously knowledgeable, very experienced and keen to help others by posting on here. Not only that I could be accused, quite rightly, of not following my own advice to the OP and ‘moving on.’ I have experience of only one PIP application - my own - whereas you probably have experience of several hundred, if not more.

    My assessment was carried out at home pre-COVID and the subsequent report was full of lies. Why can I say ‘lies’ when they could be genuine mistakes?

    Firstly because of the number of them. Everyone makes mistakes but at least seven or eight ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ answers were wrong. Numerous other answers were recorded incorrectly. No one could be that incompetent.

    Secondly because some answers that I supposedly said were made up - hobbies that I’ve never heard of is one example I can remember.

    Finally, the clincher. None of the inaccuracies - IIRC about forty - could be perceived to be to my advantage. This wouldn’t happen if the assessor was simply incompetent - they'd be equally as likley to mistakenly  record "x is totally incapable of cooking for himself" as what was written

    My case might be one in a hundred. More likely one in a thousand. I have no doubt that the vast majority of assessment are carried out properly. Mine wasn't. The assessor lied about what took place.

    The only conclusion I can come to is that she lost her notes and had to make something up.


  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,781 Disability Gamechanger
    @cristobal the HCP isn't there to write things down verbatim, if this happened then there would be no point in having the assessments. They are there to get more information about how your conditions affect you and to form their opinion.
    I'll be very surprised if a person can remember every single thing that was said during the assessment, i know i couldn't and was constantly second guessing myself as to whether i said this or that.
    I've had 3 PIP assessments for myself, the most recent one was paper based. In each of the reports there was some inaccurancies but overall it was pretty good.
    Same for my daughter, off the top of my head there was one activity where she didn't score any points but definitiely should have, without any doubts. It said she could complete that task without any assistance or aids but it's simply not true. She scored enough points for Enhanced in both parts so there was no point in challenging that
  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    edited September 19
    @poppy12345 - I'm referring mainly to closed questions where the answer on many occasions either Yes or No. There's only one way to record that really. There were several other examples of my answers being summarised incorrectly, and answers to questions that weren't asked!

    My intention is just to add the other side of the story. You've had a good experience and so have thousands of others. Some people don't and their posts on here seem quite often to be dismissed. For example when you say that you’d be surprised if anyone could remember everything that took place it seems that for some reason you don’t believe what I’m saying.

    Please believe me when I say that this does happen. I don't know why, or how frequently.

    I recorded the assessment which is why I know I'm not mistaken.

  • Dan2three
    Dan2three Member Posts: 16 Listener
    @Daisy12
    My report when somewhat the same way, was done by an occupational therapist!!
    She's stated I have no meds for anxiety when the meds I am on is their first go too.
    Also that I passed my driving test so I have no mental health issues but didn't state I did this 15 years ago when I was 18 now 33, you can't make it up sometimes.
    I am currently waiting for MR decision so fingers crossed some luck in getting to the pip I think I deserve.
    Don't give up tho it will be worth it for a good outcome!!
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,781 Disability Gamechanger
    Nope, i never said i didn't believe you... inaccurancies do happen.
    cristobal said:
     There were several other examples of my answers being summarised incorrectly, and answers to questions that weren't asked!

    If all the information is given when filling out the forms there wouldn't be any unanswered questions.

  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    Nope, i never said i didn't believe you... inaccurancies do happen.
    cristobal said:
     There were several other examples of my answers being summarised incorrectly, and answers to questions that weren't asked!

    If all the information is given when filling out the forms there wouldn't be any unanswered questions.



    I don't understand the bit about 'unanswered questions' - my point is that the assessor helpfully (!) provided answers to questions that she hadn't asked me!

    Time to move on I think. I just wanted to show that on some occasions people do lie and it can't  always be dismissed





  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,476 Disability Gamechanger
    edited September 19
    cristobal said:
    I just wanted to show that on some occasions people do lie and it can't  always be dismissed
    I fear you may have completely missed my entire point. 

    The point is not that HCP reports do not contain inaccuracies. Clearly they do. It happens. The point is that, legally, characterising any of those as a lie, simply cannot be done. To prove a “lie” you need to show that it was intentional. That requires you to show the intent of the HCP. That would require you to read their mind. How are you going to do that? The answer is that you are not. 

    The claimant who does an MR or appeal and talks about “lies” in their HCP report is effectively a fool to themselves as they have instantly demonstrated that their self-righteous anger and posturing about their decision is wholly undermined by an obvious lack of knowledge of basic law. If you can’t even get that basic thing right then what chance you have any credibility when talking about descriptors. Hardly an unreasonable stance.

    This is complicated slightly by claimants not being able to distinguish between HCP views which are demonstrably (and that word “demonstrably” is critical here) incorrect and those with which they have happen to disagree. 

    To use two great examples from this thread:

    A hobby that you’ve never heard of is not a lie. It is a factual inaccuracy. 

    An assertion that you can wash your hair because you can hold a phone is not a lie but nor is it a factual inaccuracy. It’s an opinion with which you happen to disagree. Most reasonable people would rightly conclude it’s a conclusion which makes sense and is within a range of entirely reasonable responses unless the claimant provides a detailed rebuttal. 
  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    edited September 19
    @mikehughescq

    It's about context I think

    One 'inaccuracy' is fine. Everyone makes mistakes. Maybe they were’nt listening. Maybe it's just a typo.

    Two, or three 'inaccuracies' - you could say the same. Maybe they didn't listen lots of times? Maybe they’re not a very good assessor.

    Many more than that begins to raise suspicions

    Saying 'X spend a lot of his free time reading classical literature' is harder to explain. It wasn't misheard because I said nothing like this but maybe they got me confused with the previous person. Or cut and paste from somewhere else. This happened more than once

    Add in the fact that ‘most of the time’ or ‘nearly every day’ is summarised on every occasion as ‘one to two days a week’ and you start to get even more suspicious.

    Without being picky there were probably more than thirty to forty serious ‘inaccuracies.’

    No-one is that incompetent. A ten year old child could have done better.It’s a while ago now but I remember I worked out that, statistically, the report would have been more accurate if it had been filled in by someone who didn’t know me and just guessed my reply.

    That’s why they’re lies Mike although I’m sensing that I’ll struggle to convince you. Stick with ‘mistakes’ if you prefer - others will make there own minds up.

    Finally you're gettting confused about 'assertions' - if you can hold a phone I agree it's quite likely that you can wash your hair.  If the assessor says that then no problem. The classical literature example I gave is a lie - because I never said it  not because I do or do not like reading.

    To repeat I posted this because it is important to understand that, sometimes, assessors do lie and that people who assert that shouldn’t just be dismissed.



  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,476 Disability Gamechanger
    edited September 19
    @cristobal I disagree. 

    I have yet to read a HCP report in which claimants failed to find less than what they perceived to be 40 or 50 alleged issues. Not in 8 years of PIP. That often boils down to things we’ve already covered at length i.e. it’s not their job to record what you say let alone record it verbatim and they are allowed to form and express opinions which differ from the claimant. They have to. Every claimant starts from a position of believing they qualify when often they simply don’t. Every claimant wants to pick apart a report line by line and as the errors add up they want to throw in “lies” and “incompetence”. It’s as predictable as the day is long. It’s not a given.

    Thus you might say “most of the time” repeatedly but if the PIP 2 and your meds and other evidence are not consistent with that and you’ve not put in detailed examples then there’s absolutely nothing wrong with a HCP recording “1 to 2 days pw” if that’s their considered opinion. You have no right to have your assertions accepted at face value just because you said them. Your example is a perfect one to illustrate my earlier point. There is no “lie”. There is a difference of opinion.

    In your case your other example is also a great one but likely not for the reasons you think. 

    If I were your adviser I would advise you to drop it as part of any challenge immediately.  Indeed, if you didn’t, I simply wouldn’t represent you. It damages your credibility hugely. The report says you read classical literature. You say you do not. And… it’s a perfect “he said/she said” scenario. You can’t prove a negative so it’s not a given that your assertion would be automatically accepted as the truth. It’s your word against theirs. 

    You “know” they’re wrong. You cannot possibly prove it. You go further and accuse them of “lying”. You can’t, as already described, prove that legally ever. You just look petty and stupid. Potentially every other thing you then say about the HCP report is then seen through lens of “this person wants to argue about irrelevant and unarguable things. They went into their HCP assessment prejudging the attitude of the HCP”. 

    Compare that to something which cannot possibly be true e.g. “made good eye contact” for someone with no vision at all. Again, no point in calling it a lie. It is simply an inaccuracy but, unlike your examples, it’s easy to show it’s wrong and absolutely irrefutable. 

  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    edited September 19
    @mikehughescq - you're still confusing fact with opinion so it's time to move on I think. People can judge for themselves...

    This is why it’s important, in my opinion anyway.

    One of the questions was something like (I can’t remember exactly now but I've got the recording somewhere)

    “Can you walk as far as the church?”

    “No”

    There are two churches - the nearest being probably forty yards up a steep hill; furthest being about half a mile but downhill.

    The assessor wrote “X says that he can walk to the church which is about one hundred yards”

    This is factually wrong because I never said it and the church isn't one hundred yards - it's practically opposite.

    The assessor can conclude what they like based on me not being able to walk forty yards uphill - they've got lots of other things to take into account (for example it's further to get to my car)

    The reason that I challenged this, along with numerous other ‘errors’, is that I wanted anyone reading the report to have an accurate version of what took place. I felt that if I kept quiet then they would accept what I had allegedly said as fact and this might affect a subsequent review. I didn't dispute anyone's opinion.

    I didn’t rant and rave, nor want anyone to be sacked, I didn’t even want anymore money, just accuracy.

    To finish on a positive note though - the report was so inaccurate that the assessment provider had to get someone to rewrite it.







  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,476 Disability Gamechanger
    Oh please do explain where exactly I, of all people, am confusing fact with opinion. That’s priceless. 

    I rather think people have already judged for themselves. No-one is rushing in to say anything other than what I have already said. A quick scroll up shows that I wasn’t even the first on this thread to say what you have decided to challenge me on. 

    There are of course cases where a second assessment is needed. None of that in any way takes away from the point several of us have made on this thread  i.e. that you cannot challenge a HCP just because they didn’t write down what you said or just because you believe they lied. Not sure which bit of that you’re not getting. 

    Suggesting on this thread that because you had a further assessment means somehow that the AP accepted that the HCP lied is nonsense. They will have accepted the report was factually inaccurate. That is all. In your head that means the HCP lied but ot is literally that. In your head. You have no legal or even factual basis for suggesting otherwise.

    As regards making sure the report was accurate, that’s an interesting one. You can pour a lot of energy into that; get a new report etc. Amusingly though, in most cases, the outcome decision is usually the same. The number of cases where there’s an award where there was previously none runs at about 6%. It’s far easier, as several of us endlessly point out on here, to use a couple of irrefutable examples of errors in the report and then ensure your own evidence is in order. The mistake in the former approach is in forgetting that the HCP report is not the only thing before a DM. If your evidence is good then a HCP report with 50+ errors can be given a couple of paras. rather than spending hours picking it apart. 

    Unfortunately all this does is hijack a thread and suggest, wrongly, to the OP that pursuing the idea of their HCP lying is definitely a goer when nothing could be further from the truth.
  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    @mikehughes - I'm sorry that you don't understand but I can't see how to make it simpler. Essentially not writing down what I say is fine, so is paraphrasing provided the meaning remains the same. What is not acceptable is saying that someone said X when they said Y. Can you not see that?

    You're also confused - and the fault is mine most likely - about my motive for asking for the report to be changed. I was happy with the award, I wasn't looking to get anymore money and when you say that the the decision was likely to remain the same I always expected that. All that I wanted was that the 'errors' were corrected for the reasons I gave above. From memory I picked about ten of the really significant ones. I didn't ask for the report to be completley re-written just corrected.

    In summary:-

    Some assessors lie - and some make honest mistakes (as we all do)

    My advice is that if the errors are significant - and  you can prove this - to politely ask the assessment company to correct them.

    Mandatory review - you offer sound advice. No point moaning on about inaccurracies (as the report is produced by a private company not the DWP) Give further examples to support your case. Good, recent examples of day to day difficulties - not barrowloads of medical reports.
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,476 Disability Gamechanger
    edited September 19
    Still not seeing where it’s me confusing fact and opinion. You know, being in a job where the single most important factor is being able to distinguish between the two. 

    And yes of course I can see your point. I’ve not said it was okay. I have said that in law you cannot prove a lie. You can assert until you are blue in the face that some HCPs lie. It’s irrelevant though because it cannot be proven. Bored of repeating that now. 

    Worth referring back to the Work and Pensions Committee report from 2018. I’m sure we all remember the one. Largest response rate in history etc. Overwhelming response from claimants. Worth quoting from the summary in full. Included the link shouldsnyone be daft enough to try and dispute the next critical point. 

    ”there is an unsubstantiated belief among some claimants and their advisers that assessors are encouraged to misrepresent assessments deliberately in a way that leads to claimants being denied benefits.”

    In other words, the largest investigation in parliamentary history found zero evidence of deliberate lies. Lots of accusations. Nothing that stood up to analysis. Sorry to tell you this but you’re absolutely not the exception.  

    As per your examples. You say you said one thing but they recorded another. We only have what your word for what you said. It proves nothing. You say that because what they wrote differed from what you say you said then that is a lie. It is not. It is a potential inaccuracy and that’s the best you will be able to assert. What evidence would you offer to prove your negative? Dammed if I can think of any. Picrites of bookshelves with a signed affadavit?  As you can’t even prove it’s inaccurate, because it’s impossible to prove a negative such as not being a reader of the classics, how on earth can you go further and call it a lie. The answer of course is that in law you cannot and in terms of a successful claim it’s a dangerous thing to assert for all the reasons already covered ad nauseum. 

    You can of course assert on a forum that it’s a lie because that’s what you presumably truly believe. Unfortunately that’s also irrelevant when it comes to qualifying for PIP. 

    Your errors were not investigated and did not result in a second report because it was accepted the HCP lied. In most such cases the response is that it’s your word against the HCP and they’ve no reason to disbelieve the HCP. Where there is a different outcome such as yours that’s usually because they had eyes on the HCP for other reasons such as demeanour etc. or because there’s an obvious lack of what’s known as enhanced questioning. 

    Worth clarifying that I am also not confused about motive. You have confused me with someone else there. I’ve not commented on your motives at all. 


  • chiarieds
    chiarieds Community Co-Production Group Posts: 10,531 Disability Gamechanger
    The definition of a lie, in the context you're using it, is 'an intentional false statement;' an error is 'a mistake.' The former can't be proven, as Mike has been at pains to say; the latter happens, as he freely acknowledges, & we all know, with an assessor's report, often in the plural. Your use of the two interchangeably may cause confusion for others reading this post.
    If there are a couple of provable errors, then they're worth mentioning, but, for example, does it matter if you read classical literature or Agatha Christie novels? I doubt it, it just signifies that you can read, & understand, the written word.
    I'm unsure how helpful it is to suggest that if there are significant 'errors' to ask the assessment company to correct them, yet with a Mandatory Reconsideration, there's no point in 'moaning on about inaccuracies.' Surely that's the time to write about one or 2 provable errors/inaccuracies if they've occurred?
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,476 Disability Gamechanger
    I would be fascinated to learn how challenging whether you read classical literature resulted in extra points. 

    Equally fascinated to learn whether it was the inaccuracy which got those points or the “proof” of a lie. 

    Or could it be a whole pile of effort for zero additional points. 
  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    edited September 20
    @mikehughes - this is definitely my last post on this as we're going round in circles.

    To be clear - No-one can say that individual errors are lies. Everyone makes mistakes. You have to look at the whole thing - the number of 'errors', the fact that nearly every one it tended to support the assessor awarding less points, the fact that some information is just invented, the constant summarising of 'nearly every day", "most of the time" etc as "one ot two days a week?" and the fact that the assesor claimed that she saw me walking and timed it - she didn't, she couldn't anway because  she can't see from where she was sitting, and the calculation - that I can walk at 10m/sec is completely wrong (Hussein Bolt could run that fast) Are you so naive that you can't see this or are you still sticking to 'honest mistakes'

    Maybe you will understand this? You're short changed in a shop. An error most likely. It happens again And again. After a dozen times when you got the wrong change - and never once got too much - would you not conclude that the shopkeeper is crooked.

    To repeat again - I never challenged anything for extra points/ more money/ to get anyone into trouble. I asked the asssement provider to correct significant errors so I didn't mention classical literature, how many dogs I have, the fact that I don't have a downstairs bathroom as they  aren't of any significance.

    I didn't put in a 'pile of effort'  but I did I ask for about eight significant things to be corrected. Another page would have had to be correcetd anyway becasue grammatically it had no meaning. Another paragraph also made no sense. They took out the classical literature bit - I don't know why.

    They changed their recommendation from somethinglike 10 points DL/ 6 Mob  to 16/22  so a total of 16 to 38. I had submitted no additional information so my assumption is they based this on my original application. Strangely I got points in two areas where I had written Not Applicable.

    I don't know why these changes were made. Much will be down to their embarrassment at what had happened - a multitude of 'errors', the abrupt / dismissive tone of the assessor, the fact that anyone listening to the recording could see hear I was been bullied and becoming more and more confused, the poor English, paragraphs that made no sense. The totality of it I imagine.

    You obviously don't believe what I am saying which is frustrating and I'd love you to listen to the recording and see how wrong you are. However, in your defence, if I hadn't recorded this then I don't think I would believe it either. I couldn't imagine anyone would say (quite dismissively) "so when did you last burn yourself then" in response to my explanation as to the measures that I'd taken to keep safe. Nor " How much pain are you in? You don't look in pain to me?" when I was unable to complete one of the exercises.

    @chiarieds - only the assessment company can correct their 'errors'. If they won't, and you are at the MR stage the DWP can only assess what they have in front of them so it's best to be concise, give further examples etc.
  • mikehughescq
    mikehughescq Member Posts: 7,476 Disability Gamechanger
    edited September 20
    I think with phrases like “Maybe you will understand this” you are skirting the very edges of personal abuse by attacking a poster not the post. I also suspect you know this and are now looking to provoke rather than discuss

    I doubt it’ll be your last post but for the avoidance of doubt I will shorten my earlier post to three very simple points.

    1 - the largest investigation in parliamentary history found zero evidence of lies. They found plenty of evidence of poor quality in a “significant minority” of cases. They also concluded that even though that significant minority of cases contained multiple errors (including at the level you talk about) they saw zero evidence that was in any way deliberate. The inference you have chosen to draw is based on your case. Your case is not an exception but an experienced committee faced with more than 100,000 such examples still found zero evidence it was deliberate in such cases. How you feel about it is how you feel about it but please don’t try and suggest that anyone who doesn’t feel the same as you is wrong or thick or suffering some fundamental failure to grasp what to you is obvious. 100,000 cases. Most of them like yours. Entirely different conclusion. Enough said.

    2 - both @poppy123456 and I have made our position very clear. We’re certainly not going round in circles. 

    3 - the fundamental point for the OP stands. You cannot prove a lie. You should not focus your energies on irrelevant inaccuracies in a HCP report. 
  • Jona
    Jona Member Posts: 30 Listener
    Daisy12 said:
     I'm commenting no more on here.

    I'm sorry you feel that way but i'm only trying to help. If i advised you that it was ok to just put "no change" that wouldn't be right. I'm here to help others, not give them incorrect advice.
    I had my review a few months ago and returned my forms in June. The only "medical" evidence i sent was my repeat prescription list. The rest was my anecdotal evidence, which was one A4 side of paper with 2 real world examples. I had a paper based assessment and the decision was my award stayed the same.
    Can i ask, if youve ever had any hiccups or struggles with the PIP process?
  • lemurlover
    lemurlover Member Posts: 14 Listener
    @cristobal I would suggest that the HCP report is inconsequential at this stage, and expending energy on its accuracy or origins is a waste of your time and energy.

    The people you need to convince are the decision maker and then the tribunal. Evidence you give concisely and directly will supercede the HCP. if persuasive.  Your job is to make a case to the judge based on your own experiential evidence.

    I know you're not a ship, but we had a similar situation in Admiralty court many times. One side would commission an independent report on damages, the other would disagree and claim conflict or whatever else. Ultimately that report would be used by the side who commissioned it, and considered with the rest of the evidence once we got to court. A client demanding that we waste weeks eviscerating a semi inconsequential report (It's evidence, but you can bring your own evidence too) was a client wasting their time and money.

    You are the ultimate expert on what you can and can't do. Just like the ship can't cross oceans after a repainting because a report says it can, you can't perform x y z task because a report says you can. Prove it and you're golden.
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Member Posts: 23,781 Disability Gamechanger
    Jona said:
    Daisy12 said:
     I'm commenting no more on here.

    I'm sorry you feel that way but i'm only trying to help. If i advised you that it was ok to just put "no change" that wouldn't be right. I'm here to help others, not give them incorrect advice.
    I had my review a few months ago and returned my forms in June. The only "medical" evidence i sent was my repeat prescription list. The rest was my anecdotal evidence, which was one A4 side of paper with 2 real world examples. I had a paper based assessment and the decision was my award stayed the same.
    Can i ask, if youve ever had any hiccups or struggles with the PIP process?

    No, never. Same for my daughters PIP, i'm her appointee and never had any issues with her claim either. She's had 2 paper based assessments and one home assessment.
  • cristobal
    cristobal Member Posts: 987 Disability Gamechanger
    @mikehughescq - I wasn't going to post but just so thast it's on the record...

    I apologise if you think I am treating you as thick. That was never my intention - you are very knowledgeable and offer good advice. You are clearly far from thick.

    On this occasion we disagree - time to move on.

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