What can be done about lying PIP assessors?

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  • calcotti
    calcotti Online Community Member Posts: 10,005 Championing
    The DWP doesn’t say GPS can’t provide Fit Notes, they simply (according to the statement you consented) say that DWP don’t need them. There are many people that will still need Fit Notes in order to provide them to their employer.  
  • Silvano
    Silvano Online Community Member Posts: 384 Empowering
    I've been providing sick notes to DWP (as my Work Coach insists I do) since September continuously, latest one runs out at the end of August. Hopefully by then I'll have heard re lcwra and get awarded it as my assessment was 8 weeks ago now. 
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Online Community Member Posts: 63,469 Championing
    Silvano said:
    I've been providing sick notes to DWP (as my Work Coach insists I do) since September
    It's not because they insist, it's because it's the rules. Not providing the fit notes continuously can affect any money that maybe owed, if found to have LCWRA.
  • Silvano
    Silvano Online Community Member Posts: 384 Empowering
    Yes I know that
  • Silvano
    Silvano Online Community Member Posts: 384 Empowering
    Thats why I've continuously provided thm
  • flour
    flour Online Community Member Posts: 91 Contributor
    edited July 2022
    Transcriptions of recordings made of assessments have been accepted into the tribunal hearing even if the tribunal don't have equipment to listen to the audio.

    It is possible to do because it has been done before by someone else taking the DWP to tribunal for their PIP.

    This person who went to the first tier tribunal made a secret recording of the assessment and later made their own transcript and gave it to the DWP (audio cassette and transcript).

    The courts put the transcript in to the appeal and before the hearing asked the DWP to object to the transcript if they found it to be inaccurate - the DWP did not reply.

    However, they lost the tribunal. They did not loose because they decided to make a recording and include a transcript.

    After loosing the tribunal, the person taking the DWP to tribunal then went further and asked the upper tier tribunal to decide if they were right to loose their appeal.

    This was in the case of JB v SSWP (PIP) [2019] UKUT 179 (AAC) 

    The upper tier tribunal judge did listen to the audio recording and checked it with the transcript produced by the person taking the DWP to tribunal. The judge also looked at other times audio recording and transcripts had been used at tribunals.

    The judge found that the use of a recording or secret recording relies on the fact that the individual claiming benefit is seen to be 'smaller' and 'up against' a government department. The judge says this '[claimant] see themselves as vulnerable in the face of a more powerful party (ATOS/DWP' on page 12 of the judgement.

    The judge also says that creating an audio recording and transcribing it later is to be seen as the same as if you had employed your own typist to make a transcript of your assessment at the time and a transcript can be seen as the same whether done at the time or later by an audio recording. 

    This judge showed that you can make an audio recording, you don't have to tell the DWP about it at the time of the assessment and you can also submit it in evidence to the tribunal. Even if they are unable listen to an audio recording that is not your problem if you have made it available with a transcript and it has to be taken as evidence if it is relevant - such as if the Decision Maker used the assessment report in their decision.

    There is more about using a recording in this thread here:

    https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/15478/

    And the judgement here:

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5d121131ed915d3191e71dbd/CPIP_2310_2018-00.pdf

    However, if the assessor finds out you're making a recording during the assessment they could stop the assessment.

    And, saying the report is wrong is not always enough because you also need to say why you think you are right.
  • happyfella
    happyfella Online Community Member Posts: 519 Empowering
    I had the same situation. I went for a PIP assessment and the assessor was late. I have posted about it on here before. She then asked me to do certain things which would have been impossible for me to do. In short when i got the report it was like reading about someone else. She told lots of lies on there. It resulted in me getting no points which was very confusing, it affected me a lot and i ended up at my doctors due to the stress of it. My doctor was shocked and angry and told me to appeal. I did not appeal because i just had enough.

    But, then my doctor kept on telling me to appeal and said he was putting me intouch with this organisation. My MP at the time said she had received a couple of hundred of letters from people who said the same story and she had wrote to them about it and if she got relected then she would be deanding an investigation takes place. However she was not relected.#

    But thanks to her PIP had to do an investigation. There was two investigations that took place, one was an independent one. On one investigation which was the PIP one the assessor when they asked to see the notes claimed she had lost them. In short the PIP investigation appologized and said the level of service i received was not they expect. They also said that they did not believe she was telling the truth and also believed that the information she wrote in the report was not factual. In other words she was lying.

    The independent report was more harsh about the assessor. The points was not changed as i was told even though they found that the report was not factual, i would still have to go through the appeal process which they said i would win.

    However, i was suffering from stress and could not be doing with all the hassle of it. But my doctor as mentioned would not take no for an answer and he then got an organisation involved. They said they could launch an appeal and i would win without question but said it would be quicker to do a fresh application. They also said that they would dealing with lots of appeals because people were in the same situation as me where the assessor lied. They also said that they had spoken to other agencies around the country who were having the same problems. They were demanding that video cameras should be put in the rooms to stop the assessor from lying. They also said they dont know why the assessor lies but said this is a common problem and something needs to be done.

    I got an appology from pip and when i put the new claim in it was rushed through. I had a telephone cnsultant because of COVID and the assessor said she had read my case and said she was so sorry about the experience i had received. She said with like everything there are some good and some bad assessors.

    The new assessor said straight away from the evidence it showed that i needed help. I received full pip on both accounts.

    Something needs to be changed to stop this from happening. I do not understand what assessors get from telling lies on the reports. At first i thought the report that we received was about someone else as there were so many lies on there that it was like i was reading about someone else.

    I would like to see Scope take this to the government and fight for change. It is wrong that this is happenng all the time
  • AndrewHall
    AndrewHall Online Community Member Posts: 300 Empowering
    Very difficult to prove "assessors lied" and pointless to dwell on it. I would rather point out one or two inaccuracies in the report and mainly concentrate on my own testimony on how my conditions affect me.
  • L_Volunteer
    L_Volunteer Community Volunteer Adviser, Scope Member Posts: 7,922 Championing
    Really powerful thread! Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts and experiences. Let's keep the determination for change up  :)
  • just4once
    just4once Scope Member Posts: 87 Contributor
    Pip assessment job advertising remote work from home 48k plus generous benefits package too what is their remit cut the benefit budget been through three tribunals over the years I have promised capita any more misinformation on any future assessments I will sue them for professional negligence taken six years to get back pay 
  • Silvano
    Silvano Online Community Member Posts: 384 Empowering
    Ive got my rescheduled assessment (after the nightmare 2 hr one a few weeks ago) on the hottest day ever next Tue in 35c heat so dreading it. Its a phone one. We get powercut here in high  heat as have telagraph poles and overhead lines and phone won't work. Told them that today. I don't stand a chance of being awarded it in 35c, really unfair 😢😢😢😢😢😢 
  • Zoey92
    Zoey92 Online Community Member Posts: 21 Listener
    VippidyP said:
    Hey, I'm new here, I suffer with mental health issues. 

    I've had a PIP claim before that ended up being overturned by the tribunal. The assessor just outright lied about me and I scored all 0.

    I had to renew my claim and the exact same thing happened again. 

    I understand how to appeal, that's not what I'm looking for advice on. 

    What I'm interested in is what can I do to make sure the assessor gets punished for lying? How can we, as a community, stop this from happening? How do I ensure they can't do this to somebody else?


    Hey just curious (I have no answers to your question sorry) but I am awaiting tribunal date and wondered if you were able to refer back to your first assessment as mine I received the documents and seen the full report and alot of incorrect/ unsaid things on this report. Did they allow you to? 
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Online Community Member Posts: 63,469 Championing
    Zoey92 said:
    VippidyP said:
    Hey, I'm new here, I suffer with mental health issues. 

    I've had a PIP claim before that ended up being overturned by the tribunal. The assessor just outright lied about me and I scored all 0.

    I had to renew my claim and the exact same thing happened again. 

    I understand how to appeal, that's not what I'm looking for advice on. 

    What I'm interested in is what can I do to make sure the assessor gets punished for lying? How can we, as a community, stop this from happening? How do I ensure they can't do this to somebody else?


    Hey just curious (I have no answers to your question sorry) but I am awaiting tribunal date and wondered if you were able to refer back to your first assessment as mine I received the documents and seen the full report and alot of incorrect/ unsaid things on this report. Did they allow you to? 
    Inaccuracies in reports do happen. It’s got nothing to do with not being allowed to concentrate on the report but doing so isn’t going to help your case. If anything, it could damage it. Please see my advice on your thread.
  • Cartini
    Cartini Online Community Member Posts: 1,107 Trailblazing
    Silvano said:
    Ive got my rescheduled assessment (after the nightmare 2 hr one a few weeks ago) on the hottest day ever next Tue in 35c heat so dreading it. Its a phone one. We get powercut here in high  heat as have telagraph poles and overhead lines and phone won't work. Told them that today. I don't stand a chance of being awarded it in 35c, really unfair 😢😢😢😢😢😢 
    It`s not really unfair if you have powercuts in high heat, is it.  It`s not the fault of DWP when weather conditions have an impact. If you`ve asked for another date and they`ve refused, that`s not fair.

  • shelleypt
    shelleypt Online Community Member Posts: 6 Listener
    I am going through the same they have literally turned everything I said about my illness and how it affects me the other way round, absolute lies , how can they et away with it , I've also learnt recently they tell doctors/mental health nurses, it not so many words, not to write letters of support to claiments as they would more than likely not use them, apart from being immoral this has to be illegal, but how can we prove it, there must be tens of thousands going through this, my mental health is at rock bottom, I feel like taking a cyanide tablet if I had one
    Still collate all your letters & send as evidence they can hardly deny it when it's in front of them, when/if you appeal  
  • Azanya
    Azanya Online Community Member Posts: 8 Connected
    I have recently received my PIP decision & have been scored Zero on every task!!!  I have really bad mental health issues & suffer with depression/anxiety to the point I can’t leave the house without either my son/daughter (I have an evening cleaning job with my daughter).
    My decision came back stating that I had a full time job (total lie I step 12 hrs p/w) It also said I have no difficulties in journoes etc…I stated quite clearly I can’t leave the house without either of my children etc!! The list goes on…he basically twisted/lied on each of my points & I’ve been awarded zero on all of the points!!! I’ve been in tears for days & don’t know where to go from here?  The most upsetting thing about all of this is that during the telephone assessment, he said twice ‘I don’t normally say this, but you’re doing really well’.  I had a funny feeling at the time that he was just mocking me, but when my decision letter came through I knew he was.   How can this company employ people that actually mock people with me natal health issues?
  • Azanya
    Azanya Online Community Member Posts: 8 Connected
    Another thing I’d like to point out is that I counted at least five spelling mistakes in the written statement! How can I trust an assessor who has such poor literacy? We’re they able to read all of the evidence & comprehend it?  I’m shocked that this was the quality of my written assessment in general!!
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Online Community Member Posts: 63,469 Championing
    Azanya said:
    I have recently received my PIP decision & have been scored Zero on every task!!!  I have really bad mental health issues & suffer with depression/anxiety to the point I can’t leave the house without either my son/daughter (I have an evening cleaning job with my daughter).
    My decision came back stating that I had a full time job (total lie I step 12 hrs p/w) It also said I have no difficulties in journoes etc…I stated quite clearly I can’t leave the house without either of my children etc!! The list goes on…he basically twisted/lied on each of my points & I’ve been awarded zero on all of the points!!! I’ve been in tears for days & don’t know where to go from here?  The most upsetting thing about all of this is that during the telephone assessment, he said twice ‘I don’t normally say this, but you’re doing really well’.  I had a funny feeling at the time that he was just mocking me, but when my decision letter came through I knew he was.   How can this company employ people that actually mock people with me natal health issues?

    It doesn't just happen to those with mental health, it happens to those with physical conditions too.
    Did you tell them why you're unable to leave the house without support and what would happen if you didn't have that support? Just telling them you can't leave the house isn't enough, you need to go into detail as to the reasons why.
    As i advised on another thread to you, you can challenge that decision by requesting the MR. You have 1 month from the date of the decision to do this. You should put that in writing stating where and why you think you should have scored those points.
    Include a couple of real world examples of exactly what happened the last time you attempted each descriptor that applies to you. Giving detailed information such as where you were, what exactly happened, did anyone see it and what the consequences were.
    The most likely outcome of the MR will be the decision will remain the same. If this happens you can proceed to Tribunal.
    You can make a complaint to the health assessment providers about the assessment. Details how to do that will be on their website.
  • Azanya
    Azanya Online Community Member Posts: 8 Connected
    Thanks Poppy, yes I explained very clearly to the assessor that main fear is meeting Kant people who try to engage with me when out in public settings. I also stated that when this happened my son would take charge and help me through these situations.
    it’s not just that tho is it? He stated that I worked full time…yet I clearly stated that I could only work with my daughter part time, in an empty building to clean the premises (clearly stated that I only work 12 hrs p:w)!
  • cara6328392
    cara6328392 Online Community Member Posts: 1 Listener
    I just got my daughters PIP assessment report back and the pip assessor has lied about many things Im so glad that it's not just me who sees this. Im going to call the DWP and explain what's happened and leave a complaint against the pip assessor as he has been discriminating against my daughter and it is so very unprofessional. We are going to appeal this and hopefully the complaint will go to someone higher up as this person should not be assessing pip applications as he lies, contradicts themself and is straight up been discriminatory towards my child.

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