The Green Paper Discussion (the document link is here too!)

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  • keira
    keira Online Community Member Posts: 173 Empowering

    From Benefits and Work site

    Labour risks PIP cuts vote in order to breach claimants’ human rights

     Published: 22 March 2025

    Labour is prepared to risk a backbench revolt by allowing a vote on cuts to Personal Independence Payment (PIP), in order to be sure it can breach claimants’ human rights without worrying about legal repercussions, Benefits and Work believes. 

    When the Pathways to Work Green paper was published, it contained the surprising information that the changes to PIP scores and the cuts to universal credit (UC) payments would be introduced by primary legislation – an Act of Parliament.

    Surprising, because these changes would normally be done using Statutory Instruments (SIs).  This is delegated legislation that does not require a vote in Parliament, just a signature from the secretary of state.

    A vote carries real risks.

    Given that the Tories will undoubtedly be in favour of the cuts, the risk is not that Labour might lose the vote.

    But if a sizeable number of backbenchers revolt, real damage may be done to the Labour leadership and to party cohesion. A large enough uprising might even threaten the careers of Reeves or Kendall – perhaps even be the beginning of the end for Starmer himself .

    In the face of overwhelming discontent, it seems likely Labour would abandon the whole plan rather than risk a showdown.

    SIs, on the other hand, are extremely difficult to get a ballot on in Parliament.  There is a process whereby MPs can “pray against” an SI and potentially vote on it.  But it is a complex and seldom successful process.  The last time an SI was overturned in this way in the Commons was almost half a century ago.

    So, why give MPs and Lords a vote on a highly controversial issue when it isn’t at all necessary?

    The argument that it is being done in the interests of democracy is not one that can be taken seriously.  Not when Labour have refused to consult with the public, and particularly disabled claimants, over these changes which will have such a dramatic effect on their lives.

    But there is a more obvious reason.

    SIs can be challenged in court, usually by judicial review, and have some of their provisions removed or the entire instrument quashed.  The Human Rights Act is often the basis of such challenges.

    In truth, successful challenges are very rare.

    One study found that between 2014 and 2020 there were just 14 successful challenges of delegated legislation using the Human Rights Act, in spite of thousands of SIs being enacted every year.

    It’s worth noting, though, that four of those cases were in connection with regulations made under the Welfare Reform Act 2012.

    The situation is very different where an Act of Parliament, rather than an SI, is involved.

    In the UK, parliament is sovereign. Because an act has gone through the whole extensive democratic process of scrutiny and debate by both the Commons and the Lords, courts cannot overturn the provisions of an Act of Parliament.

    The most they can do is inform the government that particular provisions of an act are in breach of, for example, the Human Rights Act or the Equality Act.

    But the government does not have to do anything about the court’s findings.  It can simply shrug its shoulders and carry on regardless.

    Benefits and Work suspects that the DWP have very strong grounds to fear that both the changes to the PIP points system and the cuts to the LCWRA element of UC are in breach of the Human Rights Act and/or the Equality Act.

    And that, we believe, is why they are to be made law via a single Act of Parliament that the courts can’t touch.

    Once again, we remind readers that In the Green paper, the DWP claim that “We are committed to putting the views and voices of disabled people and people with health conditions at the heart of everything we do.”

    Disabled people’s human rights, on the other hand, can be safely ignored.

    Visit our What you can do page for at least eight actions you can take right now to challenge the Green Paper.  

    https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/labour-risks-pip-cuts-vote-in-order-to-breach-claimants%E2%80%99-human-rights

  • Zipz
    Zipz Online Community Member Posts: 4,114 Championing

    Only our medical evidence and what more we can beg from doctors. For people, with very longterm conditions, I always recommend they obtain all relevant records dromedary their GP and hospitals. However old, it helps build a case.

  • charlie72
    charlie72 Online Community Member Posts: 259 Pioneering

    These reforms can be challenged in many ways and have a long way to go yet, even if it's fast tracked for legistation.

    1. Judicial Review – Courts can review whether the reforms comply with constitutional or legal principles, including human rights protections. If a law is passed too quickly without proper scrutiny, it may be challenged for procedural irregularities.
    2. Human Rights Challenges – If the reforms violate human rights laws (such as the European Convention on Human Rights in the UK), they can be challenged in domestic courts or even at the European Court of Human Rights.
    3. Legislative Opposition – Opposition parties, committees, or members of parliament can try to amend or repeal the reforms in future sessions, especially if public opposition grows.
    4. Public and Political Pressure – Advocacy groups, unions, charities, and the public can challenge welfare reforms through protests, petitions, and lobbying efforts, potentially leading to reconsideration or modifications.
    5. International Legal Mechanisms – If the reforms breach international commitments (such as UN conventions on poverty, disability rights, or children’s rights), they can be challenged through international legal bodies.

    Even fast-tracked laws must follow due process, and if they don’t, there are legal and political avenues to challenge them.

  • noonebelieves
    noonebelieves Online Community Member Posts: 706 Championing

    absolutely @Catherine21 ,I never claimed benefits before or even understood the system.I was so used to working hard. But ever since I became unable to work due to my disabilities and had to rely on benefits, I haven’t had a single day of peace. I live in constant fear, and with the recent Green Paper announcements and the rhetoric surrounding them, that fear has only grown. The entire employment and benefits system feels broken and non-inclusive.

  • evelyncourtney
    evelyncourtney Online Community Member Posts: 104 Empowering

    You know one thing I’ve always thought would really help, although I know in terms of logistics it would be very hard to realistically implement, is to have PIP assessors experienced in applicant’s conditions. (Or one of their conditions if they’re applying with multiple.)

    Think about how much easier it would be if your assessor had specific knowledge in your disability, instead of the current system where it just seems to be completely random.

    When I first applied for PIP i got scored 0 on everything. I had explained thoroughly that there are a lot of things that I struggle to do because of the fatigue I experience due to my SMIs (severe mental illness), but the assessor “decided” that wasn’t true because “I’m not diagnosed with any conditions that cause fatigue”.

    Then at tribunal I had a doctor who was AMAZING. He had a lot of expertise in psychiatry and actually realised and understood my difficulties, and I got scored accordingly.

    Again I do understand that the logistics of trying to get an assessor with specific expertise to be available to assess a claimant with a certain diagnosis but like… it WOULD be possible.

    I mean can you think of any other job where that would be appropriate? It would be like a university professor teaching a nursery class, or vice verse. Yes they have the same baseline educational knowledge but everything else is completely different. They are dealing with two totally separate groups of people with separate needs who require the expertise of someone specifically trained in working with them.

    That would rightly be seen as nonsensical, so why isn’t this?

  • charlie72
    charlie72 Online Community Member Posts: 259 Pioneering

    Gee, thanks for the good news made me feel so much better😕

  • luvpink
    luvpink Online Community Member Posts: 3,214 Championing

    Same here.

    I worked most of my adult life until I became too unwell to continue.

    Fed up with the constant fear and derogatory labelling of the dissabled community by the media and certain sections of society.

    I am not a benefit scrounger or lazy work shy.

    I worked very hard in a professional career and paid into the system yet now I am viewed as a useless waste of space nobody in society.

  • gamer1
    gamer1 Online Community Member Posts: 81 Empowering

    The new reforms of combining PIP and LCWRA is the most stupid thing I have ever seen from a government. Firstly it doesn't make sense because PIP is NOT a disability benefit but a add on for those that need aid with their independence living with disability. SECONDLY EVERYONE on LCWRA should be technically getting some sort of support from PIP because LCWRA! is the disability benefit. And now they are combining both, how do they know how many of those on LCWRA alone also meet requirement for PIP but are not claiming because they didn't know or were to scared before.

    You could have a situation where people are getting even more money than before and government losing out because they have not anticipated how many people actually meet the requirement for PIP and are not claiming it.

    Exactly how many people are they planning on removing from benefits? Because if the number is half of the people, then the other half will receive PIP and it it won't make a difference. They will still be spending around the same. It is the most stupid thing I have ever heard of.

    Also they have now by advertising the reforms on national television on every platform made sure MORE PEOPLE will now know about disability benefit AND WILL APPLY. It is the most stupid thing I have ever seen and doesn't not make sense at all.

  • Catherine21
    Catherine21 Posts: 8,632 Championing

    But it's saying it can't be changed? Am I missing something

  • Catherine21
    Catherine21 Posts: 8,632 Championing

    IIt's awful so so overwhelming me too worked care profession I'm so tired of it all your right not oneday of any happiness just pure dread first Conservatives then uc which still waiting for the dread of checking accounts to this who would choose this and they pushed it through parliament

  • Catherine21
    Catherine21 Posts: 8,632 Championing

    AAh all over the place like us all your right since sunak speech 2023 been hell I hope you have a peaceful day

  • Catherine21
    Catherine21 Posts: 8,632 Championing

    Starmer won't back down he will spend millions fighting

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    [Deleted User] Posts: 1,170 Championing
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  • mrsBB
    mrsBB Online Community Member Posts: 303 Empowering

    Has he ever said he worked for DWP ?

    Interesting to know and at what level.

    I know he regularly says he knows folk who work for them and they email him,

  • Dianaf
    Dianaf Online Community Member Posts: 109 Empowering

    Also people will lose their carers allowance if they look after someone who doesn't get those 4 points and this evil government have already worked that one out.

  • Zipz
    Zipz Online Community Member Posts: 4,114 Championing

    This was supposed to be the case. My paper assessment was handled by a neurology CNS. When I completed my form, i stated that I took it for granted that I would be assessed by a HCP was experience and expertise in the field. This indicated that I'd fight on and win if the assessment went against me.

  • Zipz
    Zipz Online Community Member Posts: 4,114 Championing

    You're so right. I've long been convinced that the shift from DLA to PIP served as an advertisement and is at least in part responsible for the rise in claimants.

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