Green Paper Related Discussions
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I think that the checks and balances of our country are going to kick in. So many DPOs, MPs, charities, various experts and even celebrities now are absolutely horrified by this.
It is against all the human rights and equality laws in this country and challenges will be made through the courts and have a very good chance of being successful.
This really will trash the government's reputation and will lose them no end of votes, which they will be aware of one way or another, even if they don't tell outsiders about it.
We have to keep reminding ourselves that we have so much going for us. 😊
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" I don’t know how people pass the assessment if they work ."
True! I can't figure out how people who are doing a paid work are passing the Daily Living component of PIP by claiming that they can't handle their daily living tasks, while they're perfectly handling the tasks of their paid job per job description!
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I heard on YouTube there are 100 disabled celebrities who have written to starmer about the cuts .
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I actually called Atos or what they’re called now and asked about my assessment being recorded and on phone . I explained that my previous assessment was so bad I’ve been asked if I have ptsd , though I don’t know fully what that is . The Atos call handler said “ yes I know they’re stressful as I have them myself “ . And yet on the day of my assessment they made sure they booked a phone appointment with an assessor who didn’t have recording equipment and blamed the dwp for booking it with the wrong person.
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I'm not talking about your case when suggesting to means-test PIP, because your inheritance was one off sum and did not constitute a regular income coming in every month.
I was rather talking about employed people earning significantly more than the average salary who are getting PIP, and those pensioners with relatively comfortable pension yet claiming £200/300 of WFA.
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To me, savings should not be counted as an income. Income should only be money that comes in on a regular basis, say monthly.
People need to have some savings, particularly those who are living by themselves, to face the unexpected that life has in-store for us.
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Exactly, how dare they say we shouldn’t have savings . We need to as we don’t know if our money will suddenly be stopped. I’ve been left with minimal money for 2 years while fighting for pip and I was bed bound a lot of that time so couldn’t work. It’s like the spying in our accounts situation. I have nothing to hide but I’ve heard of people being questioned about what they’re spending their money on . It’s all done to make us feel second class
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But in reality, PIP is not an out of work benefit. It is a DISABILITY benefit.
People are definitely not saying most PIP claimants are in work. The 1 in 6 statistic is pretty ubiquitous in discussions by disabled people.
When people talk about people needing PIP to work, they are only talking about that % who are in employment, who rely on PIP to help fund support.PIP is a GATEWAY benefit, which means it enables you to claim other things like carer's allowance, motability, blue badge etc. Some of these are significant for people getting to or staying in work. This is what is being referred to. Nothing more.
The PIP and WCA/ESA etc discussions are different for a few reasons (also why WCA and PIP should not be linked). The main one is that, while PIP/DLA/Attendance Allowance are DISABILITY benefits, out of work benefits like ESA, UC etc are WELFARE benefits.This is important because WELFARE benefits, while means tested, pay contributions into state pension. If you are never employed, but receive welfare benefits throughout your life, a contribution is going into your state pension fund. This means, when you reach retirement age, you will have a state pension. You may also be eligible for pension credit, IF you qualify at that point.
PIP, however, is a DISABILITY benefit. There are no contributions from PIP into your state pension. There are also not usually any exemptions on things like dental treatment, prescriptions, etc (except in extenuating circumstances). Because PIP is not means tested, there is no assumption of poverty. It is literally just there to support the cost of disability. How individual people use it varies, but it is not means tested because the cost of disability does not have a finite limit.
Meanwhile, disabled people who work are disproportionately at the lower end of the pay scale, sometimes part time, often on temporary contracts. They may or may not have access to a company pension pot, but there is no guarantee that from their employment alone, they will have enough contributions to make up a full state pension entitlement by the time they retire.
To put this into context, I've worked on and off in various jobs since 2004. My last permanent job till this one ended in 2011. I have never earned enough to pay back a penny of my student loan. I have not earned enough to pay tax between around 2007 and last month. My current job became permanent at exactly the same time the green paper was issued. I currently live with family because I've been unable to afford to rent on my own - I am now stuck waiting for the welfare review to determine PIP's future before I know if I can do this. My current combined income, including PIP, barely meets the lowest rent threshold in my area.
But, claiming PIP undoubtedly helped me to get the job I have now. As an autistic person, I took a lot of time to readjust after lockdown. My family were locked down for two years due to a vulnerable relative. Because I had PIP, I could take that time to find a job I could do, and a team that would accept me, reducing the risk of failure. I was also able to work over a year on minimal hours at a very low rate of pay in order to prove myself capable of the job I have now. PIP gave me that time to earn where I am now.
Basically, my point is that PIP helps people in a lot of different ways. But at the end, it's a DISABILITY benefit, and DISABLED people should be entitled to claim it, because every DISABLED person's circumstances is different. And unlike WELFARE benefits, PIP does not provide for a person's future. At best it can help with the now.
The moral of this story is that we should never speak for each other's circumstances, nor make assumptions about strangers' lives, any more than we should allow others to generalise our own.7 -
I found your comments on working disabled people receiving PIP interesting and respect both your perspectives. However, I want to highlight that I receive enhanced PIP for both mobility and daily living, despite being employed. I receive no LCWRA only my salary.
I have always been completely honest during assessments about the help I need, and the assessors were fully aware that I work 30 hours a week. My job is structured to accommodate my condition, but being able to work doesn’t diminish the daily challenges my disability and mobility issues create.
Have you considered that employment doesn’t mean a person no longer requires support at home or assistance with mobility?
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In no did I mean to offend anyone who works and claims pip . I was merely talking about my own situation. I’ve had really hard assessments and tribunals where I’ve had questions such as have I had a holiday, weekend away , a day out ? Can I go to the shop , how many steps is it . Even a quick assessment has been over two hours long. I’m sure if I were able to work part time I wouldn’t be awarded pip as it would go against me . As it is my conditions fluctuate throughout the day so I can’t predict how I’ll feel in the next hour let alone tomorrow. I’m not saying people who work and claim pip aren’t deserving I said I don’t understand how they pass assessments and if the 4 point rule comes in I won’t be eligible for pip and lcwra as I won’t be disabled enough. But people who do get a 4 point will be eligible for pip and be able to work. That’s not an attack on people who work while claiming pip or it’s meant that way . It’s just something in the system that’s not working. The same is the fact that uc basic for job seekers was increased, though it’s not enough. But people who can’t work will get less . Everything seems to be against those who can’t work as though we aren’t able to contribute so what’s the point to us . If some are able to work due to getting pip that’s good but where I live there are people living in houses worth millions so no I don’t think they should be able to get pip if they were disabled. Example David Cameron a millionaire at the time claiming DLA . If I won the lottery which I don’t even do but if I did and won millions I wouldn’t claim pip even though my conditions haven’t changed.
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"But at the end, it's a DISABILITY benefit, and DISABLED people should be entitled to claim it."
It's rather a benefit for people with long-term physical or mental health conditions or disabilities who have difficulty doing certain everyday tasks or getting around - GOV.UK
"And unlike WELFARE benefits, PIP does not provide for a person's future. At best it can help with the now."
I don’t quite understand what you mean by the above!
As far as I'm aware, PIP also is a welfare benefit, and I haven't heard of any welfare benefits that "provide for a person's future."
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Just read in the daily mirror
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I hear your frustration, and I understand how hard the system is, especially for people who cannot work. But that is exactly why I believe we need to stop comparing who deserves support.
With LCWRA being removed and PIP potentially next in line for major change, I fear we are heading towards a future where very few people will get help. Not because they do not need it, but because the system is being redesigned to exclude them.
PIP was never intended to be based on whether someone works, how much money they have, or the value of their home. It is designed to reflect the impact a disability has on a person’s daily life. When we start questioning how others pass assessments, or suggest that income, employment, or property value should affect eligibility, we lose sight of what PIP is truly meant to do.
I am not here to fight over scraps. I am speaking up because I see a system that is quietly stripping support from everyone. We should be standing together to protect what is left, not turning on each other.
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Wealth tax has been suggested by a number sources, including experts, research, studies, etc. Keir Starmer and his clowns are turning a deaf ear, as the culprits of the fake "New Labour" behind the curtain are not happy with taxing the rich.
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I agree and I think the assessors and case managers have too much power to decide who gets an award and for how long . I was talking to someone recently who said the very same thing , they have a lifetime award and gave a friend with the same condition which affects them the same yet they get assessed every couple of years . I really think conditions that have no cure should be lifelong awards. But it’s luck of the draw as to who you get for your assessment. My point wasn’t one of if you work you don’t deserve it but how do people pass the assessment as I have to fight . I understand it helps people who can only work part time etc but for people in highly paid jobs who don’t need the money I don’t think they should be eligible.
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I think Rayner suggested a wealth tax in her leaked email and apparently is getting support. Whether it’s all her ploy to get rid of starmer who knows but I’m for anyone that stops the cuts . My review is up Feb and I’ve no idea how it will affect my claim. The thought of another tribunal is traumatising, I’m just hoping I don’t have to go through that again especially if I get my points but no 4 . That’s just a ridiculous situation for anyone.
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I agree with what @Amaya_Ringo said previously that something had to be done with both teachers & Drs - the Labour Govt say they're going to train thousands more GPs & midwives both 'facts' which remain unclear or disputed here: I'm unsure how they're going to reach these targets. The pandemic left so many in the NHS who had worked tirelessly risking their own health being 'burnt out.' Have we forgotten that?
Does that take away from the disabled community, I'd say no, it's definitely a separate issue. We need good teachers for our children, & we all need good, caring medical professionals.
The U turn about Winter Fuel Allowance is good, but as it won't be decided upon until the Autumn it may not help pensioners next winter.
None of this distracts from what we're facing about the proposed PIP criteria change & the of abolishment of the WCA.
The link from Citizens Advice previously given shows the impact on disabled people & how their 'theory' in getting disabled people into work simply doesn't 'work':
It's going to cost the Govt more to change the criteria for the Winter Fuel Allowance than it hoped to save by cutting it! All of these things should make us all feel that bit more positive.
I was able to work as for most of my working life I was self-employed. I'd stopped working as a physio to raise my family. When my son was 1 week old I took him to his first auction as I used to deal in linen & lace. Together with his older sister we had stands at Antique & Collectable Fairs & markets from him being 4 years old.
We all have Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome (& good to see Cherylee Houston, who also has this, being supportive), so it's not been easy. I was often absolutely exhausted after being in so much pain when I worked, but then had to cook meals, do housework, etc, The fact that some of us somehow 'manage(d)' work is immaterial. PIP is if you have a disability that meets it's criteria; if it changes then many of us will face losing the 'independence' it can give, or worse.
I'd just like to agree that we're all in this together as @MW123 has said & PIP is about 'disability' first & foremost as Amaya Ringo has clearly said (PIP doesn't give you National Insurance contributions - these come out of your wages, or you pay for them if self-employed). Divisive words don't help any of us.
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Stephen Timms was asked about the bulk of claimants who wouldn't be able to score 4 points under the proposed system.
He explained: "The number of people currently on PIP who did not score 4 points in one category in their last assessment should not be equated with the number who are likely to lose PIP in future. It's important to make a clear distinction between the two, not least because we don't want constituents to be unnecessarily fearful about their situation, when we understand many are already anxious."
So, will they be excluded from reassessments?
He said: "Someone who did not score 4 points in an activity in a previous assessment may well score 4 points in a future assessment as conditions change over time!"
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Lord Alli, Starmers close friend and labour donor is worth at least 200 million ....
And people wonder why they're against taxing the super rich 🙄
not to mention Alli donating clothing to the value of £16,000 plus £2,485 for multiple pairs of glasses to Starmer and £20,000 worth of free accommodation !
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Managing Ehlers-Danlos while raising a family and working must have been incredibly challenging, and I deeply admire your resilience. Balancing pain with everyday responsibilities takes remarkable determination, and it speaks to the strength so many disabled individuals show despite the difficulties they face.
I was fortunate to have good health while raising my children and building my career, and I now see just how lucky that was. My health issues didn’t arise until I was 57, which makes it hard to imagine the challenges that disabled mothers navigate every day.
You’re absolutely right that the issues facing the NHS and education need urgent attention. Teachers and healthcare workers do so much for society, and they deserve fair pay and the respect they have more than earned.
Trying to set different groups against each other won’t bring real solutions. It only creates division, when what is really needed is understanding, solidarity, and action.
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